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Post by SILENCED on Jul 7, 2020 11:21:06 GMT
So out of all the garages that Metroline have why was the hydrogen charging facility installed at PV and not PA or G or waited until the Alperton garage was opened? Considering hydrogen refuelling takes up a lot of space, it would not work with Alperton as the area there is quite small. Greenford I believe is part of a council site and therefore at may not be owned so building a hydrogen facility would be quite tedious. PA is on an industrial estate which may limit the powers to build a hydrogen facility. It then leaves me to PV which could be owned and is a quite a big site so maybe suitable. Like with LI, hydrogen facilities are big, especially if there are going to be 20 vehicles. With G & PA, space isn't available What make you say they take up a lot of space? Pictures I have seen have tanks under ground just like petrol and diesel, and are dispensed by a petrol pump sized dispensing unit.
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Post by george on Jul 7, 2020 12:48:53 GMT
VWH2030 seen doing route learning for the 139 around Waterloo just now.
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Post by TE920 on Jul 7, 2020 13:31:08 GMT
VWH2030 seen doing route learning for the 139 around Waterloo just now. Yes, we have started already. I was on VWH2046 Last Wednesday doing Route Learning for 139. I am not sure whether RATP do this or not but we have been told that we will only be running light to Golders Green and not Waterloo once we have taken over Route.
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Post by kmkcheng on Jul 7, 2020 14:31:00 GMT
VWH2030 seen doing route learning for the 139 around Waterloo just now. Yes, we have started already. I was on VWH2046 Last Wednesday doing Route Learning for 139. I am not sure whether RATP do this or not but we have been told that we will only be running light to Golders Green and not Waterloo once we have taken over Route. RATP are the same as all dead runs are between BT and Golders Green
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Post by northlondonbuses on Jul 7, 2020 15:42:02 GMT
tbh i dont understand the difference between electrics and diesels as yes the bus isnt emmiting anthing but what about the power stations? your still burning fossil fuels/Nuclear power and its still damaging the world some of the bad things about diesels is the fact that incomplete combustion could happen and carbon monoxide could be coming out the exhaust but electrics still emmit even if it isnt out of the bus and also serious amounts of energy is needed to charge the bus.
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Post by snowman on Jul 7, 2020 16:16:01 GMT
tbh i dont understand the difference between electrics and diesels as yes the bus isnt emmiting anthing but what about the power stations? your still burning fossil fuels/Nuclear power and its still damaging the world some of the bad things about diesels is the fact that incomplete combustion could happen and carbon monoxide could be coming out the exhaust but electrics still emmit even if it isnt out of the bus and also serious amounts of energy is needed to charge the bus. In the UK roughly half of electricity is generated from fossil fuels currently. The argument for electric is the pollution is somewhere else out of the city, better for Londoners, but of course someone else’s problem. A small (something like 3%) amount of electricity can be lost in transmission, but this is much less than energy wasted by friction brakes on a diesel bus. However your general assertion is correct as UK has relatively low percentage of electricity from renewables (although it is growing)
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Metroline
Jul 7, 2020 16:27:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by TP1 on Jul 7, 2020 16:27:25 GMT
tbh i dont understand the difference between electrics and diesels as yes the bus isnt emmiting anthing but what about the power stations? your still burning fossil fuels/Nuclear power and its still damaging the world some of the bad things about diesels is the fact that incomplete combustion could happen and carbon monoxide could be coming out the exhaust but electrics still emmit even if it isnt out of the bus and also serious amounts of energy is needed to charge the bus. The simple answer is electric vehicles are better for the environment even with fossil fuel input, not to mention they're the next step in vehicle manufacturing. Think of it as every little helps... Yes, currently a lot of electricity comes from fossil fuels, but this is something that's being addressed and resolved. The UK has been progressing well with removing coal from our energy sector. The thing is, electric buses absolutely do not pollute as much as diesel and what they do will only decline with time and the introduction or more renewable energy. Not to mention the massive benefits they have for cities and heavily polluted areas, like London. Here's (https://blog.ucsusa.org/jimmy-odea/electric-vs-diesel-vs-natural-gas-which-bus-is-best-for-the-climate) an interesting article from the US a couple of years ago, worth a read. That said, there's a long way to go before buses can be carbon neutral, but it's better to start the process now versus in a few years time
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Post by wirewiper on Jul 7, 2020 17:51:42 GMT
tbh i dont understand the difference between electrics and diesels as yes the bus isnt emmiting anthing but what about the power stations? your still burning fossil fuels/Nuclear power and its still damaging the world some of the bad things about diesels is the fact that incomplete combustion could happen and carbon monoxide could be coming out the exhaust but electrics still emmit even if it isnt out of the bus and also serious amounts of energy is needed to charge the bus. This should not be used as a justification for doing nothing. As others have said, concerting to electric vehicles offers the possibility for more electricity to be sourced from renewables as a "green energy" as we move away from fossil fuels. Also modal shift could see people moving from petrol and diesel cars into electrically-powered buses, trams and trains, such a move would reduce the overall consumption of energy by the transport sector. There are also huge public health benefits from removing direct tailpipe emissions from city and urban streets, regardless of how the electricity is generated.
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Post by COBO on Jul 7, 2020 18:10:08 GMT
That will cause problems in the future when hydrogen becomes successful and it needs to rolled to all the garages. I can't exactly talk from TfL's point of view about hydrogen vehicles, it's been mentioned but it seems like electric is more of the focus point. Many garages across London are limited in space and even EV charging is difficult, such as Harrow (SO) and even Uxbridge (UX), space is a premium and addition of hydrogen facilities won't make it easier. What is best is for massive garages built from the ground, similar to something like WH or GW but then that's for a few years to come for most garages so all i can say is wait and see And don’t EV electric charging facilities also take up a lot space? How does TfL expect London Buses to go green when the garages don’t have space for EV and hydrogen charging facilities? Buy more super hybrids?
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Post by LK65EBO on Jul 7, 2020 18:13:11 GMT
I can't exactly talk from TfL's point of view about hydrogen vehicles, it's been mentioned but it seems like electric is more of the focus point. Many garages across London are limited in space and even EV charging is difficult, such as Harrow (SO) and even Uxbridge (UX), space is a premium and addition of hydrogen facilities won't make it easier. What is best is for massive garages built from the ground, similar to something like WH or GW but then that's for a few years to come for most garages so all i can say is wait and see And don’t EV electric charging facilities also take up a lot space? How does TfL expect London Buses to go green when the garages don’t have space for EV and hydrogen charging facilities? Buy more super hybrids? Theres always hybrids.
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Post by COBO on Jul 7, 2020 18:29:37 GMT
And don’t EV electric charging facilities also take up a lot space? How does TfL expect London Buses to go green when the garages don’t have space for EV and hydrogen charging facilities? Buy more super hybrids? Theres always hybrids. But there only hybrid double deckers on the market. And are hybrids really green?
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Deleted
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Metroline
Jul 7, 2020 19:00:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 19:00:12 GMT
Considering hydrogen refuelling takes up a lot of space, it would not work with Alperton as the area there is quite small. Greenford I believe is part of a council site and therefore at may not be owned so building a hydrogen facility would be quite tedious. PA is on an industrial estate which may limit the powers to build a hydrogen facility. It then leaves me to PV which could be owned and is a quite a big site so maybe suitable. Like with LI, hydrogen facilities are big, especially if there are going to be 20 vehicles. With G & PA, space isn't available What make you say they take up a lot of space? Pictures I have seen have tanks under ground just like petrol and diesel, and are dispensed by a petrol pump sized dispensing unit. I'm putting it in the context of 20 vehicles, a whole garage of hydrogens would be quite a tight fit. Large number of tanks could be tedious especially with the pressure needed to control hydrogen
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 19:02:50 GMT
I can't exactly talk from TfL's point of view about hydrogen vehicles, it's been mentioned but it seems like electric is more of the focus point. Many garages across London are limited in space and even EV charging is difficult, such as Harrow (SO) and even Uxbridge (UX), space is a premium and addition of hydrogen facilities won't make it easier. What is best is for massive garages built from the ground, similar to something like WH or GW but then that's for a few years to come for most garages so all i can say is wait and see And don’t EV electric charging facilities also take up a lot space? How does TfL expect London Buses to go green when the garages don’t have space for EV and hydrogen charging facilities? Buy more super hybrids? In all due respect it's not all of TfL's fault and neither is it bus companies, many sites are now housing which means bus companies need to find large industrial sites to house vehicles and as you said electric vehicles. The thing is how many large industrial sites are there and can companies afford it, simply it's like a game of monopoly.
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Post by rif153 on Jul 7, 2020 19:16:04 GMT
And are hybrids really green? That's a very vague question. Hybrids are definitely greener than the diesels they replaced being Euro VI so lots of toxic particles produced are filtered and burnt rather than being emitted. Also consider the stop start technology which wasn't on older buses ensures that when buses are idling (as they often are in London) they aren't polluting the atmosphere. I also believe that hybrids generate their own electricity (by vibrations from the diesel engines) which is environmentally friendly.
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Post by COBO on Jul 7, 2020 19:25:21 GMT
And are hybrids really green? That's a very vague question. Hybrids are definitely greener than the diesels they replaced being Euro VI so lots of toxic particles produced are filtered and burnt rather than being emitted. Also consider the stop start technology which wasn't on older buses ensures that when buses are idling (as they often are in London) they aren't polluting the atmosphere. I also believe that hybrids generate their own electricity (by vibrations from the diesel engines) which is environmentally friendly. But don’t hybrids need diesel as a fuel source?
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