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Post by towertransit70 on Nov 30, 2020 14:02:58 GMT
The purpose of the over-regulation is so operators can match their timetables. Or, to meet massively padded out schedules, so operators can easily achieve the requirements to trigger bonuses whatever the detriment is to the passengers Ah I see. Well isn't that great . Do you know roughly when operators started putting padded out schedules instead of tightly ones or has it always been this case?
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 30, 2020 15:01:11 GMT
Or, to meet massively padded out schedules, so operators can easily achieve the requirements to trigger bonuses whatever the detriment is to the passengers Ah I see. Well isn't that great . Do you know roughly when operators started putting padded out schedules instead of tightly ones or has it always been this case? No idea, probably started when they went from net to gross contracts, thereby not giving operators any incentive to care for passenger needs. EdIt ... can probably take out the " need" from that sentence. They get their money if their buses are full or empty, passengers pished off or happy ... in deregulated land this would result in loss of passengers, hence revenue .... oh, guess what is happening in London, reduction in TfL revenue, operator revenues maximized by offering poor service.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2020 16:02:23 GMT
The purpose of the over-regulation is so operators can match their timetables. Or, to meet massively padded out schedules, so operators can easily achieve the requirements to trigger bonuses whatever the detriment is to the passengers Timetables are not overly padded out on purpose. The fact is that we live in a city with highly variable traffic conditions, and you can't timetable for all eventualities. If any operator overly padded out their schedule it would lead to extra buses being required - in short it would put them at a significant disadvantage on the tender. TFL also have to evaluate the schedule to ensure it reflects real world conditions. Schedules are based on real world running times. All data on running times is recorded through iBus and average running times over a certain period can be reviewed through Hyperion. This is the data that company schedulers will use to formulate running times - and as I said if running times are overly padded out this will lead to additional buses being required on the schedule leading to a higher cost on the tender (cost of the vehicle, additional staff required to drive it, cost of operating the vehicle etc.). You can't schedule for all conditions - on quiet days you will have service regulation as buses need to run somewhere close to their time (even on high frequency routes factors like live changeovers and limited stand space availability require many high frequency routes to run close to their scheduled time rather than their headway). You need to make up your mind. You moan when buses are curtailed due to late running, and you moan about when buses are regulated. You can't schedule for all conditions so both are necessary. One day the schedule will be insufficient and you'll be moaning about buses being turned, and then on a quiet day you'll moan about buses being regulated. You just seem to enjoy picking faults in everything... Traffic conditions are variable. Nothing is going to run perfectly!
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Post by M1104 on Nov 30, 2020 16:29:27 GMT
Bearing in mind normal New Year's Eve into New Year's Day celebrations are cancelled a reliable source said that a normal¹ Saturday service will be done for New Year's Eve.
¹ - No scheduled enhancements nor curtailments
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 30, 2020 16:59:43 GMT
Or, to meet massively padded out schedules, so operators can easily achieve the requirements to trigger bonuses whatever the detriment is to the passengers Timetables are not overly padded out on purpose. The fact is that we live in a city with highly variable traffic conditions, and you can't timetable for all eventualities. If any operator overly padded out their schedule it would lead to extra buses being required - in short it would put them at a significant disadvantage on the tender. TFL also have to evaluate the schedule to ensure it reflects real world conditions. Schedules are based on real world running times. All data on running times is recorded through iBus and average running times over a certain period can be reviewed through Hyperion. This is the data that company schedulers will use to formulate running times - and as I said if running times are overly padded out this will lead to additional buses being required on the schedule leading to a higher cost on the tender (cost of the vehicle, additional staff required to drive it, cost of operating the vehicle etc.). You can't schedule for all conditions - on quiet days you will have service regulation as buses need to run somewhere close to their time (even on high frequency routes factors like live changeovers and limited stand space availability require many high frequency routes to run close to their scheduled time rather than their headway). You need to make up your mind. You moan when buses are curtailed due to late running, and you moan about when buses are regulated. You can't schedule for all conditions so both are necessary. One day the schedule will be insufficient and you'll be moaning about buses being turned, and then on a quiet day you'll moan about buses being regulated. You just seem to enjoy picking faults in everything... Traffic conditions are variable. Nothing is going to run perfectly! Whatever you are doing, it is not being done well as passenger numbers have continued to reduce year on year ... so from a passengers perspective, there is room for improvement.
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Post by enviroPB on Nov 30, 2020 18:52:23 GMT
Bearing in mind normal New Year's Eve into New Year's Day celebrations are cancelled a reliable sources said that a normal¹ Saturday service will be done for New Year's Eve. ¹ - No scheduled enhancements nor curtailments It was inevitable really. No New Year's fireworks display on the Embankment (I believe there will be a show somewhere to broadcast on tv); no New Year's Day parade and the Government discouraging people to go outside all mean there's no appetite for extra demand and thus TfL need not shed the extra resources unnecessarily. What's annoying though is that some 24 hour and night routes have lesser frequencies at weekends as they're tied in with the Night Tube: the 148N and N25 are such examples dropping from 3 to 2bph and 7.5 to 5bph respectively. It would be nice if some weekend 24 routes would operate on NYE but as aforementioned if the Government is discouraging people going out, then it's only apt that TfL follow suit by not laying on extras for New Year's.
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Post by DT 11 on Nov 30, 2020 19:05:20 GMT
Or, to meet massively padded out schedules, so operators can easily achieve the requirements to trigger bonuses whatever the detriment is to the passengers Timetables are not overly padded out on purpose. The fact is that we live in a city with highly variable traffic conditions, and you can't timetable for all eventualities. If any operator overly padded out their schedule it would lead to extra buses being required - in short it would put them at a significant disadvantage on the tender. TFL also have to evaluate the schedule to ensure it reflects real world conditions. Schedules are based on real world running times. All data on running times is recorded through iBus and average running times over a certain period can be reviewed through Hyperion. This is the data that company schedulers will use to formulate running times - and as I said if running times are overly padded out this will lead to additional buses being required on the schedule leading to a higher cost on the tender (cost of the vehicle, additional staff required to drive it, cost of operating the vehicle etc.). You can't schedule for all conditions - on quiet days you will have service regulation as buses need to run somewhere close to their time (even on high frequency routes factors like live changeovers and limited stand space availability require many high frequency routes to run close to their scheduled time rather than their headway). You need to make up your mind. You moan when buses are curtailed due to late running, and you moan about when buses are regulated. You can't schedule for all conditions so both are necessary. One day the schedule will be insufficient and you'll be moaning about buses being turned, and then on a quiet day you'll moan about buses being regulated. You just seem to enjoy picking faults in everything... Traffic conditions are variable. Nothing is going to run perfectly! I would Bus driver RTC have also reduced... 2 Minute Regulation isn’t going to affect anyone’s life, a random curtailment and having to wait for another bus is more annoying. I remember when the 320 was first extended to Catford, got so many complaints about Biggin Hill Airport turns another bus had to be added to the schedule...
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 30, 2020 19:45:38 GMT
Timetables are not overly padded out on purpose. The fact is that we live in a city with highly variable traffic conditions, and you can't timetable for all eventualities. If any operator overly padded out their schedule it would lead to extra buses being required - in short it would put them at a significant disadvantage on the tender. TFL also have to evaluate the schedule to ensure it reflects real world conditions. Schedules are based on real world running times. All data on running times is recorded through iBus and average running times over a certain period can be reviewed through Hyperion. This is the data that company schedulers will use to formulate running times - and as I said if running times are overly padded out this will lead to additional buses being required on the schedule leading to a higher cost on the tender (cost of the vehicle, additional staff required to drive it, cost of operating the vehicle etc.). You can't schedule for all conditions - on quiet days you will have service regulation as buses need to run somewhere close to their time (even on high frequency routes factors like live changeovers and limited stand space availability require many high frequency routes to run close to their scheduled time rather than their headway). You need to make up your mind. You moan when buses are curtailed due to late running, and you moan about when buses are regulated. You can't schedule for all conditions so both are necessary. One day the schedule will be insufficient and you'll be moaning about buses being turned, and then on a quiet day you'll moan about buses being regulated. You just seem to enjoy picking faults in everything... Traffic conditions are variable. Nothing is going to run perfectly! I would Bus driver RTC have also reduced... 2 Minute Regulation isn’t going to affect anyone’s life, a random curtailment and having to wait for another bus is more annoying. I remember when the 320 was first extended to Catford, got so many complaints about Biggin Hill Airport turns another bus had to be added to the schedule... I agree having to wait for a bus is annoying ... seeing you are due in at you connection stop 2 minutes before the bus you want it, only to see it drive off as you approach the stop due to being regulated is very annoying ... passenger excess waiting time! Do not understand the concept of having to reguarly turn buses that are not massively early or late, rather than making an ontime bus late because it is too close to the late bus in front, that will still heed a turn as it gets later.
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Post by Frenzie on Nov 30, 2020 22:37:57 GMT
I would Bus driver RTC have also reduced... 2 Minute Regulation isn’t going to affect anyone’s life, a random curtailment and having to wait for another bus is more annoying. I remember when the 320 was first extended to Catford, got so many complaints about Biggin Hill Airport turns another bus had to be added to the schedule... I agree having to wait for a bus is annoying ... seeing you are due in at you connection stop 2 minutes before the bus you want it, only to see it drive off as you approach the stop due to being regulated is very annoying ... passenger excess waiting time! Do not understand the concept of having to reguarly turn buses that are not massively early or late, rather than making an ontime bus late because it is too close to the late bus in front, that will still heed a turn as it gets later. The best combination would be a moderately tight schedule coupled with a lot of stand time (20 minutes or so). That would mean any buses delayed because of traffic can run up to 15 late before they need to be turned. Also on days traffic isn’t so bad buses won’t be holding at every stop. Routes that don’t need excessive running time to avoid turns are night routes. Not sure what’s happened in recent years but night buses run so slow. It’s exacerbated by the death of the night life in London recently but even before COVID 19 some routes had about 10 minutes extra running time.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2020 22:47:09 GMT
I would Bus driver RTC have also reduced... 2 Minute Regulation isn’t going to affect anyone’s life, a random curtailment and having to wait for another bus is more annoying. I remember when the 320 was first extended to Catford, got so many complaints about Biggin Hill Airport turns another bus had to be added to the schedule... I agree having to wait for a bus is annoying ... seeing you are due in at you connection stop 2 minutes before the bus you want it, only to see it drive off as you approach the stop due to being regulated is very annoying ... passenger excess waiting time! Do not understand the concept of having to reguarly turn buses that are not massively early or late, rather than making an ontime bus late because it is too close to the late bus in front, that will still heed a turn as it gets later. The logic behind curtailing buses is that a late running bus will have a gap in front of it - as the delay will widen the headway - so you'd curtail a bus to put into that gap going back the other way. No point leaving everything to run end to end cos they'll just come out with gaps and bunching. Also you have to remember that drivers need to come off for their breaks - any late reliefs could cause disruption for the service later on, and where possible it is nice for drivers to be able to finish on time as well.
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 30, 2020 23:11:49 GMT
I agree having to wait for a bus is annoying ... seeing you are due in at you connection stop 2 minutes before the bus you want it, only to see it drive off as you approach the stop due to being regulated is very annoying ... passenger excess waiting time! Do not understand the concept of having to reguarly turn buses that are not massively early or late, rather than making an ontime bus late because it is too close to the late bus in front, that will still heed a turn as it gets later. The logic behind curtailing buses is that a late running bus will have a gap in front of it - as the delay will widen the headway - so you'd curtail a bus to put into that gap going back the other way. No point leaving everything to run end to end cos they'll just come out with gaps and bunching. Also you have to remember that drivers need to come off for their breaks - any late reliefs could cause disruption for the service later on, and where possible it is nice for drivers to be able to finish on time as well. OK for the layman here, why would letting the bus catch up the late running bus, late running bus gets curtailed, transfers affected passengers to on-time bus. Late bus then enters the sequence from the curtailed point at the correct time. Would that not work? Seems more passenger friendly to me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2020 23:15:45 GMT
The logic behind curtailing buses is that a late running bus will have a gap in front of it - as the delay will widen the headway - so you'd curtail a bus to put into that gap going back the other way. No point leaving everything to run end to end cos they'll just come out with gaps and bunching. Also you have to remember that drivers need to come off for their breaks - any late reliefs could cause disruption for the service later on, and where possible it is nice for drivers to be able to finish on time as well. OK for the layman here, why would letting the bus catch up the late running bus, late running bus gets curtailed, transfers affected passengers to on-time bus. Late bus then enters the sequence from the curtailed point at the correct time. Would that not work? Seems more passenger friendly to me. That's exactly what usually happens if the delays are isolated (although the follower will usually have to have a slight gap of at least a couple of minutes to the leader as TfL count two buses running through a QSI point together as one observed bus) - but more often than not they aren't. It's not usually just one bus losing time - and if the follower to the late runner has a gap behind them then they will of course be held to an appropriate headway to close the gap behind.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 30, 2020 23:24:19 GMT
In some ways he is right, purely because if it means longer journey times due to a slow service, it would put people off using the bus. It is as bad as over regulation of services or roadworks. The problem isn't the ISA but the 20mph zones being splashed out as a one size fits all. Not neccessarily blaming drivers, but buses just seem to be crawling nowadays. The 20mph is the main cause of this aswell as over regulation. I was on the 9 all the way to Hammersmith and the driver only 10-15mph all the way through and this was during the night where the roads were empty. I was quite peeed at this, cos it feels like buses take forever to reach stops and what I don't understand is why drivers won't follow the speed signs. These 20mph are also a pain in the arse, because they are being put everywhere and most of the time leads to buses crawling at all times of the day. There will be a time where even dual carriageways will become 20mph, just you watch (some have been changed to 30mph!!!) I don't understand how some side roads are 30mph but main roads are 20mph? I wish buses after 9pm have tight scheduling so they can speed up a bit, but now operators just wants slow journeys. Does anyone know what is the actual purpose of over-regulation is, because I can't think of anyProfit, to put it blunt.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 30, 2020 23:30:22 GMT
Or, to meet massively padded out schedules, so operators can easily achieve the requirements to trigger bonuses whatever the detriment is to the passengers Timetables are not overly padded out on purpose. The fact is that we live in a city with highly variable traffic conditions, and you can't timetable for all eventualities. If any operator overly padded out their schedule it would lead to extra buses being required - in short it would put them at a significant disadvantage on the tender. TFL also have to evaluate the schedule to ensure it reflects real world conditions. Schedules are based on real world running times. All data on running times is recorded through iBus and average running times over a certain period can be reviewed through Hyperion. This is the data that company schedulers will use to formulate running times - and as I said if running times are overly padded out this will lead to additional buses being required on the schedule leading to a higher cost on the tender (cost of the vehicle, additional staff required to drive it, cost of operating the vehicle etc.). You can't schedule for all conditions - on quiet days you will have service regulation as buses need to run somewhere close to their time (even on high frequency routes factors like live changeovers and limited stand space availability require many high frequency routes to run close to their scheduled time rather than their headway). You need to make up your mind. You moan when buses are curtailed due to late running, and you moan about when buses are regulated. You can't schedule for all conditions so both are necessary. One day the schedule will be insufficient and you'll be moaning about buses being turned, and then on a quiet day you'll moan about buses being regulated. You just seem to enjoy picking faults in everything... Traffic conditions are variable. Nothing is going to run perfectly! There are some routes that are over padded whether there was roadworks etc and operators tend to be very reluctant to reduce the service for obvious reasons. Additional buses on a route can gain better QSI's so that extra bus can actually pull serious amounts of money in for certain companies. Worst on very high frequency routes.
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Post by greenboy on Dec 1, 2020 8:29:04 GMT
Or, to meet massively padded out schedules, so operators can easily achieve the requirements to trigger bonuses whatever the detriment is to the passengers Ah I see. Well isn't that great . Do you know roughly when operators started putting padded out schedules instead of tightly ones or has it always been this case? This practice certainly seems to have become more commonplace since I-bus started and it's particularly prevalent in Central London at the moment with low traffic levels and can be very frustrating for passengers. I recently saw a 139 sat at the Savoy Street stop with hazards on just a few minutes after leaving Waterloo, it also makes it difficult for other buses to serve the stop.
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