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Post by SILENCED on Oct 16, 2018 14:47:15 GMT
But the current system is driving people away from buses ... do you think a system that actively encourages and finacially benefits companies to pad out services to run excessively slowly is the right way to go ... customer numbers suggest not! I dont mind waiting for a bus ... it is accepted ... but being deliberated delayed is unacceptable in my eyes. The few weeks ago, I was on a bus and needed to make a connection. My bus was due 2 minutes before my connecting bus. 3 stops away we were regulated and arrived to see my connecting bus pull away as I arrived ... had to wait 20 mins for next one ... so delayed by 23 minutes. Since then I have driven when making that journey, as I do not appreciate my time being wasted, and driving takes less time than that time that was needlessly wasted. As passengers, why should we care about commercial bonuses or fines? We just want to feel our journey does matter. The current system just peees them off! In retail the most important customer is the one you are dealing with ... a lesson London Bus operators and TfL could learn from. There is a need to provide a "headway" service to enable even 'departures' from bus stops. If regulation didn't occur at all then there would be bunching all over the place followed by horrendous service gaps. However, having regulation so close to a terminus does seem a little pointless. Except perhaps where there are very tight bus stand constraints, like the 271 at Highgate for example.
Why would you be worried about headway when you are on a bus? Your journey matters to you and you want to complete it in a timely fashion. Do you care that the bus in front is late so it slows yours down as well? In the good old days they would catch each other up, so the one behind relieved the pressure on the late driver ... now they keep headway, making the 2nd bus later, until the 1st one is turned ... then the 2nd one gets turned and the poor passenger gets shafted all in the name of headway! It only benefits the bus companies to get bonuses and as a measure so TfL can congratulate themselves when they hit their target ... which ends up costing them a lot of money! To me all headway is is a system to slow buses down and drive custom away to other methods of transport ... and boy is it working! At the end of the day is headway that important ... if severe, yes ... but 2-3 minutes ... it's the commercial suicide of Londons buses! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 14:55:59 GMT
TfL class up to 2:30 minutes early as "on time" so it's TfL policy you need to be arguing with cl54 , not the drivers' actions! They are simply following what they're told, which is no more than two minutes early. The new schedule hasn't helped the matter either, simply given the route too much running time. Ontime is no more than 2 early or 5 late on high frequency routes. Low frequency is 0 early, and up to 5 late.
Not what us drivers get told. On high frequency routes there is no "on time", just headway. If the controller puts it on schedule deviation (which happens usually if the route is doing live changeovers and everyone is running early) then the controller will tell the drivers how early they can run. On a Low Frequency route, TfL allow up to 2:30 early for varying traffic conditions. |
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 16, 2018 15:05:01 GMT
Ontime is no more than 2 early or 5 late on high frequency routes. Low frequency is 0 early, and up to 5 late.
Not what us drivers get told. On high frequency routes there is no "on time", just headway. If the controller puts it on schedule deviation (which happens usually if the route is doing live changeovers and everyone is running early) then the controller will tell the drivers how early they can run. On a Low Frequency route, TfL allow up to 2:30 early for varying traffic conditions. Controllers dont control a bus route, they control the contract to ensure maximum finacial returns which more often than not is to the detriment of the users of the bus route. I do not think a bus should be able to be turned if there is less than 15 minutes until the bus reaches the turning point ... we need more proactive controlling ... not reactive when they realise they are getting it wrong! |
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Post by foxhat on Oct 16, 2018 15:06:07 GMT
Ontime is no more than 2 early or 5 late on high frequency routes. Low frequency is 0 early, and up to 5 late.
Not what us drivers get told. On high frequency routes there is no "on time", just headway. If the controller puts it on schedule deviation (which happens usually if the route is doing live changeovers and everyone is running early) then the controller will tell the drivers how early they can run. On a Low Frequency route, TfL allow up to 2:30 early for varying traffic conditions. What happened to the "you must not depart early from any timing point" on a low frequency route? |
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Post by foxhat on Oct 16, 2018 15:07:38 GMT
There is a need to provide a "headway" service to enable even 'departures' from bus stops. If regulation didn't occur at all then there would be bunching all over the place followed by horrendous service gaps. However, having regulation so close to a terminus does seem a little pointless. Except perhaps where there are very tight bus stand constraints, like the 271 at Highgate for example.
Why would you be worried about headway when you are on a bus? Your journey matters to you and you want to complete it in a timely fashion. Do you care that the bus in front is late so it slows yours down as well? In the good old days they would catch each other up, so the one behind relieved the pressure on the late driver ... now they keep headway, making the 2nd bus later, until the 1st one is turned ... then the 2nd one gets turned and the poor passenger gets shafted all in the name of headway! It only benefits the bus companies to get bonuses and as a measure so TfL can congratulate themselves when they hit their target ... which ends up costing them a lot of money! To me all headway is is a system to slow buses down and drive custom away to other methods of transport ... and boy is it working! At the end of the day is headway that important ... if severe, yes ... but 2-3 minutes ... it's the commercial suicide of Londons buses! I meant for passengers waiting at bus stops, not on the bus. I have to agree that it is frustrating being regulated at any stop, especially when other buses then sail pass you which you could have used to complete your journey!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 15:10:42 GMT
Not what us drivers get told. On high frequency routes there is no "on time", just headway. If the controller puts it on schedule deviation (which happens usually if the route is doing live changeovers and everyone is running early) then the controller will tell the drivers how early they can run. On a Low Frequency route, TfL allow up to 2:30 early for varying traffic conditions. What happened to the "you must not depart early from any timing point" on a low frequency route? Not sure what company you work for but at Go Ahead it is no more than 2 minutes early. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 16, 2018 15:10:59 GMT
In some cases it isn't done enough. Most buses would be sent into delays then we end up with huge gaps in the service. What you may not realise by just looking at the route on LVF etc is the gaps being created at time if everything was left to run end to end. You end up with bunching, poor QSI results and fines. Then a peeed off public seeing 2-3 buses turn up at once. But the current system is driving people away from buses ... do you think a system that actively encourages and finacially benefits companies to pad out services to run excessively slowly is the right way to go ... customer numbers suggest not! I dont mind waiting for a bus ... it is accepted ... but being deliberated delayed is unacceptable in my eyes. The few weeks ago, I was on a bus and needed to make a connection. My bus was due 2 minutes before my connecting bus. 3 stops away we were regulated and arrived to see my connecting bus pull away as I arrived ... had to wait 20 mins for next one ... so delayed by 23 minutes. Since then I have driven when making that journey, as I do not appreciate my time being wasted, and driving takes less time than that time that was needlessly wasted. As passengers, why should we care about commercial bonuses or fines? We just want to feel our journey does matter. The current system just peees them off! In retail the most important customer is the one you are dealing with ... a lesson London Bus operators and TfL could learn from. Well the whole point of buses being regulated in this way was because of passengers in the first place. If people were not moaning when two buses turned up at once then this wouldn't happen. IMO if I have waited an excessive amount of time for a bus, I would rather 2-3+ buses turn up as I know I would be able to get on, with at least one of them being turned. But since TfL counts 2+ buses going through a QSI point together as one bus on a high frequency route, this measure would be here to stay. The operators direct customer is TfL, TfL's customer is the public, they set the rules....
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 16, 2018 15:14:38 GMT
Why would you be worried about headway when you are on a bus? Your journey matters to you and you want to complete it in a timely fashion. Do you care that the bus in front is late so it slows yours down as well? In the good old days they would catch each other up, so the one behind relieved the pressure on the late driver ... now they keep headway, making the 2nd bus later, until the 1st one is turned ... then the 2nd one gets turned and the poor passenger gets shafted all in the name of headway! It only benefits the bus companies to get bonuses and as a measure so TfL can congratulate themselves when they hit their target ... which ends up costing them a lot of money! To me all headway is is a system to slow buses down and drive custom away to other methods of transport ... and boy is it working! At the end of the day is headway that important ... if severe, yes ... but 2-3 minutes ... it's the commercial suicide of Londons buses! I meant for passengers waiting at bus stops, not on the bus. I have to agree that it is frustrating being regulated at any stop, especially when other buses then sail pass you which you could have used to complete your journey!
I think passengers are more willing to accept waiting at a bus stop ... than being unnecessarily delayed pn your journey. I am happy to accept waiting at a bus stop for my bus to arrive, but not regularly at bus stops mid-route |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Oct 16, 2018 15:15:02 GMT
Got this in the e-mail today  If TfL are going to start sending irritating e-mails to try to get people onto buses then I might have to mark them as spam   Not to mention this is just down to the route being regulated at almost every other stop, wouldn't call that an improvement personally. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Oct 16, 2018 15:20:52 GMT
Seems there has been some sort of launch today for the new safety spec on London buses that applies from next year. Tom Edwards has been at Milbrook seeing an electric bus "with added noise" so pedestrians can hear them going. That was a Wright Streetair single decker. Also a ADL MMC double deck with automatic braking system being driven at an object and it stops before colliding with it. Going to be interesting to see automatic braking works in London traffic conditions. I assume the bus will just stop and then never move again. The new buses on route 20 are going to be fun!
Meanwhile "safety campaigner" Tom Kearney is still not satisfied. What a ******* surprise!
This is all a load of needless complexity and spend. I assume buses will not be allowed out in service if any aspect of the new technology is not working so that's more performance risk for the operators to manage and more cost loaded into vehicle costs, maintenance costs and contract risk. The end result of all that will be less service operated because TfL will have to contain the cost increases by reducing service levels. That doesn't look like a win to me. What a total load of bullocks. No surprise though as the bus is the enemy of TfL. How much millions is this going to cost to implement, then they are cutting bus services left right and centre. No doubt it its not working it would mean the bus consigned to the garage as a mechanical. They would NEVER stop people being hit by buses unless they are all parked up and not run. People still get hit and dragged under the bus from the side which I have witnessed and this would do NOTHING to stop that.
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Post by galwhv69 on Oct 16, 2018 15:21:51 GMT
Got this in the e-mail today If TfL are going to start sending irritating e-mails to try to get people onto buses then I might have to mark them as spam Not to mention this is just down to the route being regulated at almost every other stop, wouldn't call that an improvement personally. *Frantically checks inbox* Maybe this is their last advertising idea as its free,I don't expect much people would get persuaded by this |
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 16, 2018 15:22:39 GMT
But the current system is driving people away from buses ... do you think a system that actively encourages and finacially benefits companies to pad out services to run excessively slowly is the right way to go ... customer numbers suggest not! I dont mind waiting for a bus ... it is accepted ... but being deliberated delayed is unacceptable in my eyes. The few weeks ago, I was on a bus and needed to make a connection. My bus was due 2 minutes before my connecting bus. 3 stops away we were regulated and arrived to see my connecting bus pull away as I arrived ... had to wait 20 mins for next one ... so delayed by 23 minutes. Since then I have driven when making that journey, as I do not appreciate my time being wasted, and driving takes less time than that time that was needlessly wasted. As passengers, why should we care about commercial bonuses or fines? We just want to feel our journey does matter. The current system just peees them off! In retail the most important customer is the one you are dealing with ... a lesson London Bus operators and TfL could learn from. Well the whole point of buses being regulated in this way was because of passengers in the first place. If people were not moaning when two buses turned up at once then this wouldn't happen. IMO if I have waited an excessive amount of time for a bus, I would rather 2-3+ buses turn up as I know I would be able to get on, with at least one of them being turned. But since TfL counts 2+ buses going through a QSI point together as one bus on a high frequency route, this measure would be here to stay. The operators direct customer is TfL, TfL's customer is the public, they set the rules....
Totally agree ... the current tendering process is fundamentally broken and needs a wholesale review ... which has to be driven by TfL ... why this has not been done before now is incomprehensible to me. I can totally understand why the companies and controllers do what the do ... financial benefit ... but please dont tell me they have the passengers interests at heart ... infact sure they regard passengers as an operational inconvenience. I would like to see a system whereby they get rewarded for increased passenger satisfaction ... but might cost TfL dearly as the current baseline is so low! |
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Post by sid on Oct 16, 2018 15:24:41 GMT
But the current system is driving people away from buses ... do you think a system that actively encourages and finacially benefits companies to pad out services to run excessively slowly is the right way to go ... customer numbers suggest not! I dont mind waiting for a bus ... it is accepted ... but being deliberated delayed is unacceptable in my eyes. The few weeks ago, I was on a bus and needed to make a connection. My bus was due 2 minutes before my connecting bus. 3 stops away we were regulated and arrived to see my connecting bus pull away as I arrived ... had to wait 20 mins for next one ... so delayed by 23 minutes. Since then I have driven when making that journey, as I do not appreciate my time being wasted, and driving takes less time than that time that was needlessly wasted. As passengers, why should we care about commercial bonuses or fines? We just want to feel our journey does matter. The current system just peees them off! In retail the most important customer is the one you are dealing with ... a lesson London Bus operators and TfL could learn from. Well the whole point of buses being regulated in this way was because of passengers in the first place. If people were not moaning when two buses turned up at once then this wouldn't happen. IMO if I have waited an excessive amount of time for a bus, I would rather 2-3+ buses turn up as I know I would be able to get on, with at least one of them being turned. But since TfL counts 2+ buses going through a QSI point together as one bus on a high frequency route, this measure would be here to stay. The operators direct customer is TfL, TfL's customer is the public, they set the rules....
I don't doubt that people moan if they've been waiting for ages and two buses turn up, hence the old joke about London buses, but they moan a lot more when they are on the bus and the destination changes or they have to sit at a stop for ages in order to regulate the service. I realise it is TfL to blame and the operators just comply to keep the money rolling in. |
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Post by SILENCED on Oct 16, 2018 15:25:17 GMT
Got this in the e-mail today If TfL are going to start sending irritating e-mails to try to get people onto buses then I might have to mark them as spam Not to mention this is just down to the route being regulated at almost every other stop, wouldn't call that an improvement personally. Is it possoble to get from EL2 to Tram to take advantage of this advertised benefit? |
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Post by Pilot on Oct 16, 2018 15:28:58 GMT
Seems there has been some sort of launch today for the new safety spec on London buses that applies from next year. Tom Edwards has been at Milbrook seeing an electric bus "with added noise" so pedestrians can hear them going. That was a Wright Streetair single decker. Also a ADL MMC double deck with automatic braking system being driven at an object and it stops before colliding with it. Going to be interesting to see automatic braking works in London traffic conditions. I assume the bus will just stop and then never move again. The new buses on route 20 are going to be fun!
Meanwhile "safety campaigner" Tom Kearney is still not satisfied. What a ******* surprise!
This is all a load of needless complexity and spend. I assume buses will not be allowed out in service if any aspect of the new technology is not working so that's more performance risk for the operators to manage and more cost loaded into vehicle costs, maintenance costs and contract risk. The end result of all that will be less service operated because TfL will have to contain the cost increases by reducing service levels. That doesn't look like a win to me.
I betcha the buses will be driverless in a lot of areas by 2030 alone with the way things are advancing lol.
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