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Post by enviroPB on Aug 6, 2024 15:16:00 GMT
Apologies for the late commentary, have been busy working in Brighton the past few days and couldn't comment on events unfolding Friday evening.
The canary has stopped singing in the coalmine. There are no independent bus companies running routes in London. People have mentioned Uno but that's a big stretch to say it's independent considering they're being funded by a university! That's like a cafe owner saying he's independent, but his dad Gordon Ramsay helps him out.
Not wishing to repeat anything from the last 16 pages of this thread, so here goes. A small business owner will very much be counting the pennies, and missing £330,000 in your budget is significant when TfL have billions in the budget and in reserves. Why should Dean Sullivan transfer money from his successful side of the business to essentially waste when costs are increasing & TfL are very reluctant to remedy the issue?
I have been vocal about the low balling during the tendering process, maybe it's had its part in this issue. But businesses are to be run with going concern; trade today with the expectation of trading tomorrow. The fact that TfL has taken months to pay money Sullivan's are owed, in installments no less, in addition to giving little flexibility for their increased costs like other operators means it's was a deliberate push by TfL. I can't remember the company running emergency timetables to mitigate delays, so don't know if Sullivan's requested but TfL rejected.
No offence to the big boys, but the smaller operators tend to do business with more care and a personal feel. HCT, TT and now Sullivan's will be taking away that customer service interface that was once award winning. Yes service quality may have plundered, but you made the best with what you have. Sullivan's didn't have.
Such a shame someone so passionate about the bus industry is leaving London operations. I wish the best of luck to all the staff involved.
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Post by wirewiper on Aug 6, 2024 16:39:41 GMT
Apologies for the late commentary, have been busy working in Brighton the past few days and couldn't comment on events unfolding Friday evening. The canary has stopped singing in the coalmine. There are no independent bus companies running routes in London. People have mentioned Uno but that's a big stretch to say it's independent considering they're being funded by a university! That's like a cafe owner saying he's independent, but his dad Gordon Ramsay helps him out. Not wishing to repeat anything from the last 16 pages of this thread, so here goes. A small business owner will very much be counting the pennies, and missing £330,000 in your budget is significant when TfL have billions in the budget and in reserves. Why should Dean Sullivan transfer money from his successful side of the business to essentially waste when costs are increasing & TfL are very reluctant to remedy the issue? I have been vocal about the low balling during the tendering process, maybe it's had its part in this issue. But businesses are to be run with going concern; trade today with the expectation of trading tomorrow. The fact that TfL has taken months to pay money Sullivan's are owed, in installments no less, in addition to giving little flexibility for their increased costs like other operators means it's was a deliberate push by TfL. I can't remember the company running emergency timetables to mitigate delays, so don't know if Sullivan's requested but TfL rejected. No offence to the big boys, but the smaller operators tend to do business with more care and a personal feel. HCT, TT and now Sullivan's will be taking away that customer service interface that was once award winning. Yes service quality may have plundered, but you made the best with what you have. Sullivan's didn't have. Such a shame someone so passionate about the bus industry is leaving London operations. I wish the best of luck to all the staff involved. You might be interested to read a post I wrote a few days ago, as this is not the first time that SME operatprs have found their place in the bus industry hard to sustain. A similar situation has occurred in Greater Manchester, and back in the 1960s and 1970s independents were bailing left, right and centre, unable to compete with the National Bus Comapny and the PTEs (Passenger Transport Executives). Local Authorities, especially those going down the Franchise or tendering route, need to take positive action on policy and procurement if they want SME operators to have a role in their bus networks. tangytango.proboards.com/post/826774/thread |
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Post by WH241 on Aug 6, 2024 16:43:02 GMT
I assume the 389/399 will be run separately from the 299 until new electrics are in service? Go Ahead could transfer one of the ex-379 WSs back to NP if they need an extra spare. I wonder why the 10.2m SEs seem to be considered unsuitable for the 389/399, when under Sullivan they did occasionally use the 298's batch of 61reg E200s? Personally think its far too early to assume anything! Today is the first day of go Ahead running the 389/399 and imagine the dust has not settled from the sudden take over of these routes at such sort notice. I think we will have a clearer picture in a few weeks along with a better idea of what temporary buses for all the Sullivan routes at Uno, Stagecoach, Metroline and Go Ahead will be until the routes gain new buses or are tendered. |
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sw2
Conductor
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Post by sw2 on Aug 6, 2024 16:56:20 GMT
Apologies for the late commentary, have been busy working in Brighton the past few days and couldn't comment on events unfolding Friday evening. The canary has stopped singing in the coalmine. There are no independent bus companies running routes in London. People have mentioned Uno but that's a big stretch to say it's independent considering they're being funded by a university! That's like a cafe owner saying he's independent, but his dad Gordon Ramsay helps him out. Not wishing to repeat anything from the last 16 pages of this thread, so here goes. A small business owner will very much be counting the pennies, and missing £330,000 in your budget is significant when TfL have billions in the budget and in reserves. Why should Dean Sullivan transfer money from his successful side of the business to essentially waste when costs are increasing & TfL are very reluctant to remedy the issue? I have been vocal about the low balling during the tendering process, maybe it's had its part in this issue. But businesses are to be run with going concern; trade today with the expectation of trading tomorrow. The fact that TfL has taken months to pay money Sullivan's are owed, in installments no less, in addition to giving little flexibility for their increased costs like other operators means it's was a deliberate push by TfL. I can't remember the company running emergency timetables to mitigate delays, so don't know if Sullivan's requested but TfL rejected. No offence to the big boys, but the smaller operators tend to do business with more care and a personal feel. HCT, TT and now Sullivan's will be taking away that customer service interface that was once award winning. Yes service quality may have plundered, but you made the best with what you have. Sullivan's didn't have. Such a shame someone so passionate about the bus industry is leaving London operations. I wish the best of luck to all the staff involved. I think those who used Sullivan vehicles regularly could testify that they did not do business with care or a personal feel whatsoever. |
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 6, 2024 19:21:01 GMT
Apologies for the late commentary, have been busy working in Brighton the past few days and couldn't comment on events unfolding Friday evening. The canary has stopped singing in the coalmine. There are no independent bus companies running routes in London. People have mentioned Uno but that's a big stretch to say it's independent considering they're being funded by a university! That's like a cafe owner saying he's independent, but his dad Gordon Ramsay helps him out. Not wishing to repeat anything from the last 16 pages of this thread, so here goes. A small business owner will very much be counting the pennies, and missing £330,000 in your budget is significant when TfL have billions in the budget and in reserves. Why should Dean Sullivan transfer money from his successful side of the business to essentially waste when costs are increasing & TfL are very reluctant to remedy the issue? I have been vocal about the low balling during the tendering process, maybe it's had its part in this issue. But businesses are to be run with going concern; trade today with the expectation of trading tomorrow. The fact that TfL has taken months to pay money Sullivan's are owed, in installments no less, in addition to giving little flexibility for their increased costs like other operators means it's was a deliberate push by TfL. I can't remember the company running emergency timetables to mitigate delays, so don't know if Sullivan's requested but TfL rejected. No offence to the big boys, but the smaller operators tend to do business with more care and a personal feel. HCT, TT and now Sullivan's will be taking away that customer service interface that was once award winning. Yes service quality may have plundered, but you made the best with what you have. Sullivan's didn't have. Such a shame someone so passionate about the bus industry is leaving London operations. I wish the best of luck to all the staff involved. If he knew the London operations were floundering, he could have given TfL a heads up months before. For more than a year it seemed the usually impeccable service was on the decline. Lots of buses on 299 with "mystery excursions", 217 buses, like Harry Kane in Cup games didn't run so much  It all depends on how things are run. Perhaps it was the use of percieved income, before anything materialised. The MMCs couldn't have been cheap when the 217 was won from Metroline, especially the private plates on each one. Ditto the E200s for the W9, and new Streetlites for 299. All with private marks. If I was looking for work, I could plan for what I could save from a £200 a day IT gig, but couldn't spend like I'd already had the interview and had been there a few weeks Any TfL work is costly, so I imagine it all has to be thought out first. Measure twice, cut once. I think they bitten off more than they could chew. As for Uno, they set up their own university shuttle buses (I remember their first white ones branded Universitybus back in the day) and organically grew. I'm sure the University wouldn't want to overspend on the bus ops at the expense of study and learning. I noticed that Uno acquired decent second hand buses (even the ex Metroline BYDs). It's sad to see what happened with Sullivans London ops, but it was the financial equivalent of buying a new Mercedes the day before getting a driving ban. Hopefully the Herts operations benefit from all these shiny 66/17/67 plate buses sitting dormant in South Mimms, but from what I have seen on Reddit, some pax aren't exactly bowled over by the service on some of the commercial routes either  |
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Post by WH241 on Aug 6, 2024 19:28:22 GMT
Apologies for the late commentary, have been busy working in Brighton the past few days and couldn't comment on events unfolding Friday evening. The canary has stopped singing in the coalmine. There are no independent bus companies running routes in London. People have mentioned Uno but that's a big stretch to say it's independent considering they're being funded by a university! That's like a cafe owner saying he's independent, but his dad Gordon Ramsay helps him out. Not wishing to repeat anything from the last 16 pages of this thread, so here goes. A small business owner will very much be counting the pennies, and missing £330,000 in your budget is significant when TfL have billions in the budget and in reserves. Why should Dean Sullivan transfer money from his successful side of the business to essentially waste when costs are increasing & TfL are very reluctant to remedy the issue? I have been vocal about the low balling during the tendering process, maybe it's had its part in this issue. But businesses are to be run with going concern; trade today with the expectation of trading tomorrow. The fact that TfL has taken months to pay money Sullivan's are owed, in installments no less, in addition to giving little flexibility for their increased costs like other operators means it's was a deliberate push by TfL. I can't remember the company running emergency timetables to mitigate delays, so don't know if Sullivan's requested but TfL rejected. No offence to the big boys, but the smaller operators tend to do business with more care and a personal feel. HCT, TT and now Sullivan's will be taking away that customer service interface that was once award winning. Yes service quality may have plundered, but you made the best with what you have. Sullivan's didn't have. Such a shame someone so passionate about the bus industry is leaving London operations. I wish the best of luck to all the staff involved. Hopefully the Herts operations benefit from all these shiny 66/17/67 plate buses sitting dormant in South Mimms, but from what I have seen on Reddit, some pax aren't exactly bowled over by the service on some of the commercial routes either I could be wrong but get the feeling the whole business is going to end going under! Have any of the newer ex route 217 buses seen further use on the commercial routes? |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Aug 6, 2024 19:37:52 GMT
Apologies for the late commentary, have been busy working in Brighton the past few days and couldn't comment on events unfolding Friday evening. The canary has stopped singing in the coalmine. There are no independent bus companies running routes in London. People have mentioned Uno but that's a big stretch to say it's independent considering they're being funded by a university! That's like a cafe owner saying he's independent, but his dad Gordon Ramsay helps him out. Not wishing to repeat anything from the last 16 pages of this thread, so here goes. A small business owner will very much be counting the pennies, and missing £330,000 in your budget is significant when TfL have billions in the budget and in reserves. Why should Dean Sullivan transfer money from his successful side of the business to essentially waste when costs are increasing & TfL are very reluctant to remedy the issue? I have been vocal about the low balling during the tendering process, maybe it's had its part in this issue. But businesses are to be run with going concern; trade today with the expectation of trading tomorrow. The fact that TfL has taken months to pay money Sullivan's are owed, in installments no less, in addition to giving little flexibility for their increased costs like other operators means it's was a deliberate push by TfL. I can't remember the company running emergency timetables to mitigate delays, so don't know if Sullivan's requested but TfL rejected. No offence to the big boys, but the smaller operators tend to do business with more care and a personal feel. HCT, TT and now Sullivan's will be taking away that customer service interface that was once award winning. Yes service quality may have plundered, but you made the best with what you have. Sullivan's didn't have. Such a shame someone so passionate about the bus industry is leaving London operations. I wish the best of luck to all the staff involved. However I think the bottom line is they're the ones who chose to enter a market where it's a very high reward but also a very high risk. They'd have known very well what the penalties were if services were not operated to standard, probably not a huge issue to them when initially winning work as I'm sure most people would say that Sullivan were once a very respected operator. There was always the risk that they'd start squandering performance, as is the case with any operator and it's no doubt that TfL came down on them as a result. TfL will come down on them no different to how they'd come down on Stagecoach or Go Ahead because it's not TfL's problem how big an operator is and whether they're an independent or not. You operate routes poorly and you'll get sanctioned accordingly. It's not TfL's problem if costs are increasing, operators know what they get into unfortunately and need to make do with the amount of money that they've agreed to as part of a contract. TfL offer the break clause that can be used. I also don't think Tower Transit should be classed as a small operator, they were effectively a large operator that ended up losing so much work they became small. They had the overheads of a big business, with multiple internal departments within head office and were owned by Kelsian who was a major player in the market. |
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Post by SILENCED on Aug 6, 2024 19:39:23 GMT
Hopefully the Herts operations benefit from all these shiny 66/17/67 plate buses sitting dormant in South Mimms, but from what I have seen on Reddit, some pax aren't exactly bowled over by the service on some of the commercial routes either I could be wrong but get the feeling the whole business is going to end going under! Have any of the newer ex route 217 buses seen further use on the commercial routes? They would need to have all the TfL gubbins removed and the provincial equipment installed ... the first part is a TfL process, so would not expect it to be done quickly. |
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Post by vjaska on Aug 6, 2024 20:57:58 GMT
I could be wrong but get the feeling the whole business is going to end going under! Have any of the newer ex route 217 buses seen further use on the commercial routes? They would need to have all the TfL gubbins removed and the provincial equipment installed ... the first part is a TfL process, so would not expect it to be done quickly. I could be wrong but my gut feeling is almost the entire MMC fleet Sullivans had for their TfL work will be sold on. All the buses are owned outright (confirmed by Mr Sullivan himself) and it would make sense to sell the MMC's given they'd have more resale than the older Enviro 400's and 200's in the fleet, especially given TfL operators will probably come sniffing. The 9.7m Enviro 200 MMC's in particular would be like goldust for London operators given how rare dual door secondhand examples are difficult to come by. I would also expect the Streetlites to be sold mainly because they've been a pain in Sullivans proverbial by the look of things but they too should fetch decent money. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Aug 6, 2024 21:40:21 GMT
Apologies for the late commentary, have been busy working in Brighton the past few days and couldn't comment on events unfolding Friday evening. The canary has stopped singing in the coalmine. There are no independent bus companies running routes in London. People have mentioned Uno but that's a big stretch to say it's independent considering they're being funded by a university! That's like a cafe owner saying he's independent, but his dad Gordon Ramsay helps him out. Not wishing to repeat anything from the last 16 pages of this thread, so here goes. A small business owner will very much be counting the pennies, and missing £330,000 in your budget is significant when TfL have billions in the budget and in reserves. Why should Dean Sullivan transfer money from his successful side of the business to essentially waste when costs are increasing & TfL are very reluctant to remedy the issue? I have been vocal about the low balling during the tendering process, maybe it's had its part in this issue. But businesses are to be run with going concern; trade today with the expectation of trading tomorrow. The fact that TfL has taken months to pay money Sullivan's are owed, in installments no less, in addition to giving little flexibility for their increased costs like other operators means it's was a deliberate push by TfL. I can't remember the company running emergency timetables to mitigate delays, so don't know if Sullivan's requested but TfL rejected. No offence to the big boys, but the smaller operators tend to do business with more care and a personal feel. HCT, TT and now Sullivan's will be taking away that customer service interface that was once award winning. Yes service quality may have plundered, but you made the best with what you have. Sullivan's didn't have. Such a shame someone so passionate about the bus industry is leaving London operations. I wish the best of luck to all the staff involved. I think those who used Sullivan vehicles regularly could testify that they did not do business with care or a personal feel whatsoever. They used to be at the top of the route performance tables, so the question has to be what went wrong. They started to slip after around 2017 |
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 6, 2024 21:52:42 GMT
They would need to have all the TfL gubbins removed and the provincial equipment installed ... the first part is a TfL process, so would not expect it to be done quickly. I could be wrong but my gut feeling is almost the entire MMC fleet Sullivans had for their TfL work will be sold on. All the buses are owned outright (confirmed by Mr Sullivan himself) and it would make sense to sell the MMC's given they'd have more resale than the older Enviro 400's and 200's in the fleet, especially given TfL operators will probably come sniffing. The 9.7m Enviro 200 MMC's in particular would be like goldust for London operators given how rare dual door secondhand examples are difficult to come by. I would also expect the Streetlites to be sold mainly because they've been a pain in Sullivans proverbial by the look of things but they too should fetch decent money. Would be the most sensible thing to do unless he wants to keep it for the Commercial ops. It would reduce age profile but he may not like the sight of all that TfL moquette taunting him in those MMCs  it might cost a few bob to get seating re upholstered and buses repainted (though a lot of commercial buses retain London red). Him selling his 12 E400 MMCs to Arriva and the 217 would be be like Arsenal selling Declan Rice to Spurs, it will never happen I could see the 8 E200 MMCs and 8 Streetlites (SL90 is VOR) going off to Ensignbus then operators buying from them. Having seen the size of the Swanland Road site and it shared with what looks like a building maintenance and removals firm (Keans), I think there's limited space to store a great deal, perhaps the London stuff is still at South Mimms. Now mentioned as former TfL vehicles, according to his fleet list. |
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Post by ThinLizzy on Aug 6, 2024 22:05:20 GMT
Apologies for the late commentary, have been busy working in Brighton the past few days and couldn't comment on events unfolding Friday evening. The canary has stopped singing in the coalmine. There are no independent bus companies running routes in London. People have mentioned Uno but that's a big stretch to say it's independent considering they're being funded by a university! That's like a cafe owner saying he's independent, but his dad Gordon Ramsay helps him out. Not wishing to repeat anything from the last 16 pages of this thread, so here goes. A small business owner will very much be counting the pennies, and missing £330,000 in your budget is significant when TfL have billions in the budget and in reserves. Why should Dean Sullivan transfer money from his successful side of the business to essentially waste when costs are increasing & TfL are very reluctant to remedy the issue? I have been vocal about the low balling during the tendering process, maybe it's had its part in this issue. But businesses are to be run with going concern; trade today with the expectation of trading tomorrow. The fact that TfL has taken months to pay money Sullivan's are owed, in installments no less, in addition to giving little flexibility for their increased costs like other operators means it's was a deliberate push by TfL. I can't remember the company running emergency timetables to mitigate delays, so don't know if Sullivan's requested but TfL rejected. No offence to the big boys, but the smaller operators tend to do business with more care and a personal feel. HCT, TT and now Sullivan's will be taking away that customer service interface that was once award winning. Yes service quality may have plundered, but you made the best with what you have. Sullivan's didn't have. Such a shame someone so passionate about the bus industry is leaving London operations. I wish the best of luck to all the staff involved. However I think the bottom line is they're the ones who chose to enter a market where it's a very high reward but also a very high risk. They'd have known very well what the penalties were if services were not operated to standard, probably not a huge issue to them when initially winning work as I'm sure most people would say that Sullivan were once a very respected operator. There was always the risk that they'd start squandering performance, as is the case with any operator and it's no doubt that TfL came down on them as a result. TfL will come down on them no different to how they'd come down on Stagecoach or Go Ahead because it's not TfL's problem how big an operator is and whether they're an independent or not. You operate routes poorly and you'll get sanctioned accordingly. It's not TfL's problem if costs are increasing, operators know what they get into unfortunately and need to make do with the amount of money that they've agreed to as part of a contract. TfL offer the break clause that can be used. I also don't think Tower Transit should be classed as a small operator, they were effectively a large operator that ended up losing so much work they became small. They had the overheads of a big business, with multiple internal departments within head office and were owned by Kelsian who was a major player in the market. absolutely, I wouldn't class a multi-national company as "small" considering it ran around 4000 buses at the time when the last half of Tower Transit was sold to Stagecoach |
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Post by ThinLizzy on Aug 6, 2024 22:09:48 GMT
I think those who used Sullivan vehicles regularly could testify that they did not do business with care or a personal feel whatsoever. They used to be at the top of the route performance tables, so the question has to be what went wrong. They started to slip after around 2017 probably the 217 and W9 that started the ball rolling, perhaps they were step too far for a smaller operator. |
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Post by DE20106 on Aug 6, 2024 22:49:18 GMT
They would need to have all the TfL gubbins removed and the provincial equipment installed ... the first part is a TfL process, so would not expect it to be done quickly. I could be wrong but my gut feeling is almost the entire MMC fleet Sullivans had for their TfL work will be sold on. All the buses are owned outright (confirmed by Mr Sullivan himself) and it would make sense to sell the MMC's given they'd have more resale than the older Enviro 400's and 200's in the fleet, especially given TfL operators will probably come sniffing. The 9.7m Enviro 200 MMC's in particular would be like goldust for London operators given how rare dual door secondhand examples are difficult to come by. I would also expect the Streetlites to be sold mainly because they've been a pain in Sullivans proverbial by the look of things but they too should fetch decent money. If withdrawn and sold on to an outer London operator this makes it the very first batch of London Enviro400 MMCs to be withdrawn! (Excluding vehicles withdrawn due to fire/accidents etc, and the small batch of experimental SN65ZG* MMC vehicles that TT had) |
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Post by Red Dragon on Aug 7, 2024 0:15:18 GMT
Apologies for the late commentary, have been busy working in Brighton the past few days and couldn't comment on events unfolding Friday evening. The canary has stopped singing in the coalmine. There are no independent bus companies running routes in London. People have mentioned Uno but that's a big stretch to say it's independent considering they're being funded by a university! That's like a cafe owner saying he's independent, but his dad Gordon Ramsay helps him out. Not wishing to repeat anything from the last 16 pages of this thread, so here goes. A small business owner will very much be counting the pennies, and missing £330,000 in your budget is significant when TfL have billions in the budget and in reserves. Why should Dean Sullivan transfer money from his successful side of the business to essentially waste when costs are increasing & TfL are very reluctant to remedy the issue? I have been vocal about the low balling during the tendering process, maybe it's had its part in this issue. But businesses are to be run with going concern; trade today with the expectation of trading tomorrow. The fact that TfL has taken months to pay money Sullivan's are owed, in installments no less, in addition to giving little flexibility for their increased costs like other operators means it's was a deliberate push by TfL. I can't remember the company running emergency timetables to mitigate delays, so don't know if Sullivan's requested but TfL rejected. No offence to the big boys, but the smaller operators tend to do business with more care and a personal feel. HCT, TT and now Sullivan's will be taking away that customer service interface that was once award winning. Yes service quality may have plundered, but you made the best with what you have. Sullivan's didn't have. Such a shame someone so passionate about the bus industry is leaving London operations. I wish the best of luck to all the staff involved. We still don't know why TfL were witholding money - could it be to do with the astoundingly poor performance? We haven't and may never hear TfL's side of things. But what would've been your solution? More cash despite ongoing poor performance? As for the personal feel, the TfL interiors, the history posters in the alcove and the friendly regular drivers were nice and really endeared me to Sullivan's, but that all fell away during Covid. And furthermore, those are a lot further up the hierarchy of needs than the bus turn up, which it frequently didn't. There is an enthusiast keeness to have lots of small businesses involved with providing bus services, but do we actually want them? Many people up and down the country have suffered when small operators have gone rogue, or done a flounce like Mr Sullivan. |
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it might cost a few bob to get seating re upholstered and buses repainted (though a lot of commercial buses retain London red).
