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Post by Red Dragon on Aug 7, 2024 0:16:32 GMT
I could be wrong but my gut feeling is almost the entire MMC fleet Sullivans had for their TfL work will be sold on. All the buses are owned outright (confirmed by Mr Sullivan himself) and it would make sense to sell the MMC's given they'd have more resale than the older Enviro 400's and 200's in the fleet, especially given TfL operators will probably come sniffing. The 9.7m Enviro 200 MMC's in particular would be like goldust for London operators given how rare dual door secondhand examples are difficult to come by. I would also expect the Streetlites to be sold mainly because they've been a pain in Sullivans proverbial by the look of things but they too should fetch decent money. Would be the most sensible thing to do unless he wants to keep it for the Commercial ops. It would reduce age profile but he may not like the sight of all that TfL moquette taunting him in those MMCs  it might cost a few bob to get seating re upholstered and buses repainted (though a lot of commercial buses retain London red). Him selling his 12 E400 MMCs to Arriva and the 217 would be be like Arsenal selling Declan Rice to Spurs, it will never happen  I could see the 8 E200 MMCs and 8 Streetlites (SL90 is VOR) going off to Ensignbus then operators buying from them. Having seen the size of the Swanland Road site and it shared with what looks like a building maintenance and removals firm (Keans), I think there's limited space to store a great deal, perhaps the London stuff is still at South Mimms. Now mentioned as former TfL vehicles, according to his fleet list. What's the PVR of the commercial routes, excluding school routes? 11 or so? That doesn't sound like a particularly strong business, especially in Herts which is not fertile bus territory. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Aug 7, 2024 1:09:59 GMT
Would be the most sensible thing to do unless he wants to keep it for the Commercial ops. It would reduce age profile but he may not like the sight of all that TfL moquette taunting him in those MMCs it might cost a few bob to get seating re upholstered and buses repainted (though a lot of commercial buses retain London red). Him selling his 12 E400 MMCs to Arriva and the 217 would be be like Arsenal selling Declan Rice to Spurs, it will never happen I could see the 8 E200 MMCs and 8 Streetlites (SL90 is VOR) going off to Ensignbus then operators buying from them. Having seen the size of the Swanland Road site and it shared with what looks like a building maintenance and removals firm (Keans), I think there's limited space to store a great deal, perhaps the London stuff is still at South Mimms. Now mentioned as former TfL vehicles, according to his fleet list. What's the PVR of the commercial routes, excluding school routes? 11 or so? That doesn't sound like a particularly strong business, especially in Herts which is not fertile bus territory. That's true - Arriva have significantly reduced their network in recent years around this part of Hertfordshire (and others too, like Carousel cutting back their 103 service). Even looking at Sullivan's main routes - until recently the 84 was run by Metroline, and the 306 was long run by Arriva (under a different number). And other than school routes, Sullivan also seem to have been reluctant to expand their non-TFL network beyond the area immediately near SM. I'm not sure they have ever had a route as such that didn't serve Borehamwood and/or Potters Bar. South Mimms could potentially be a viable garage to run routes in places like Watford and St Albans - but when Arriva have stopped operating a route, smaller operators from places much further away have had to step in (such as Red Rose based in Aylesbury). On a slightly separate topic, I think something needs to change in the way TFL is funded, to co-operate a lot more with local authorities in the home counties. In this area for instance, bus routes like the 306 and 328 should ideally be integrated in some way into the TFL network, and rail fare zones need to be more consistent between the outer part of the Met line and parallel rail routes into Herts/Bucks. |
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Post by vjaska on Aug 7, 2024 3:00:20 GMT
Would be the most sensible thing to do unless he wants to keep it for the Commercial ops. It would reduce age profile but he may not like the sight of all that TfL moquette taunting him in those MMCs it might cost a few bob to get seating re upholstered and buses repainted (though a lot of commercial buses retain London red). Him selling his 12 E400 MMCs to Arriva and the 217 would be be like Arsenal selling Declan Rice to Spurs, it will never happen I could see the 8 E200 MMCs and 8 Streetlites (SL90 is VOR) going off to Ensignbus then operators buying from them. Having seen the size of the Swanland Road site and it shared with what looks like a building maintenance and removals firm (Keans), I think there's limited space to store a great deal, perhaps the London stuff is still at South Mimms. Now mentioned as former TfL vehicles, according to his fleet list. What's the PVR of the commercial routes, excluding school routes? 11 or so? That doesn't sound like a particularly strong business, especially in Herts which is not fertile bus territory. Sullivans has never just been an operator that just operates a small collection of service work. They were a regular on the rail replacement scene and also were a regular when it came to private hire. Mr Sullivans post on his group mentions that more focus will be on the latter. They've also shown even whilst the TfL side ran into issues, they can still spot a opportunity to revive something discarded by another operator such as the 84 which has been a success since they took it on so there will always be opportunities for them. |
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Post by SILENCED on Aug 7, 2024 8:04:54 GMT
All the ex-Sullivan routes have been transferred to their new operators on bus times. Progress, but still nothing tracking.
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 7, 2024 8:13:53 GMT
What's the PVR of the commercial routes, excluding school routes? 11 or so? That doesn't sound like a particularly strong business, especially in Herts which is not fertile bus territory. That's true - Arriva have significantly reduced their network in recent years around this part of Hertfordshire (and others too, like Carousel cutting back their 103 service). Even looking at Sullivan's main routes - until recently the 84 was run by Metroline, and the 306 was long run by Arriva (under a different number). And other than school routes, Sullivan also seem to have been reluctant to expand their non-TFL network beyond the area immediately near SM. I'm not sure they have ever had a route as such that didn't serve Borehamwood and/or Potters Bar. South Mimms could potentially be a viable garage to run routes in places like Watford and St Albans - but when Arriva have stopped operating a route, smaller operators from places much further away have had to step in (such as Red Rose based in Aylesbury). On a slightly separate topic, I think something needs to change in the way TFL is funded, to co-operate a lot more with local authorities in the home counties. In this area for instance, bus routes like the 306 and 328 should ideally be integrated in some way into the TFL network, and rail fare zones need to be more consistent between the outer part of the Met line and parallel rail routes into Herts/Bucks. It's a fair old trek to Aylesbury, I used to go up there for work, so props to Red Rose for their expansion! I don't know how Intalink work but I imagine Arriva and Vectare have work sewn up further east towards Waltham Cross, Nazeing, Hoddesdon, and towards Harlow... also the news of how the London ops were abandoned in a spat may make any council tread a little more carefully in case they have to suddenly cobble together services. It's worse in rural areas. In London it's not so bad with Uber and Bolt everywhere, but for some in the sticks, the bus is their lifeline, like a pensioner needing to get to a post office, or hospital appointment. What with the spectre of Administration in the background (nothing to do with Office365), it might be hard to see what happens next. They could sell off those buses to Ensign seeing as newish TfL stock is in huge demand, but I think it will be retained to lower age profile on what remains of the biz. |
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Post by kmkcheng on Aug 7, 2024 8:37:48 GMT
Hopefully the Herts operations benefit from all these shiny 66/17/67 plate buses sitting dormant in South Mimms, but from what I have seen on Reddit, some pax aren't exactly bowled over by the service on some of the commercial routes either  I could be wrong but get the feeling the whole business is going to end going under! Have any of the newer ex route 217 buses seen further use on the commercial routes? Even before the withdrawal, those 217 buses has made the occasional appearance on their Herts school routes. |
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Post by lonmark on Aug 7, 2024 9:28:54 GMT
I thought Route 84 was supposed to have 4 buses on track on bustimes.org. right now, it only shows 2 buses running on track.
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 7, 2024 11:20:39 GMT
I thought Route 84 was supposed to have 4 buses on track on bustimes.org. right now, it only shows 2 buses running on track. Could be Busical Chairs and he's using the Ex 217 MMCs which has gone off-radar (iBus switched off / ripped out) so there could be all 4 out on the route  Bustimes is not the most reliable of systems. |
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Post by wirewiper on Aug 7, 2024 11:43:37 GMT
I thought Route 84 was supposed to have 4 buses on track on bustimes.org. right now, it only shows 2 buses running on track. Could be Busical Chairs and he's using the Ex 217 MMCs which has gone off-radar (iBus switched off / ripped out) so there could be all 4 out on the route Bustimes is not the most reliable of systems. And it may not even be down to Bustimes - a couple of weeks ago I was waiting for a Stagecoach bus that wasn't tracking, turned out the ticket machine wasn't working so everyone got a free ride. |
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Post by enviroPB on Aug 7, 2024 13:06:48 GMT
I think those who used Sullivan vehicles regularly could testify that they did not do business with care or a personal feel whatsoever. They used to be at the top of the route performance tables, so the question has to be what went wrong. They started to slip after around 2017 That's the real question: how long was TfL holding out on paying Sullivan's what they were owed. On their press release it said they were losing 200,000 pounds a month from TfL services. The cost of living crisis started in 2022. A potential cash flow problem of up to 5 million quid for a small business would definitely see corners being cut somewhere. |
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Post by enviroPB on Aug 7, 2024 13:11:48 GMT
What's the PVR of the commercial routes, excluding school routes? 11 or so? That doesn't sound like a particularly strong business, especially in Herts which is not fertile bus territory. Sullivans has never just been an operator that just operates a small collection of service work. They were a regular on the rail replacement scene and also were a regular when it came to private hire. Mr Sullivans post on his group mentions that more focus will be on the latter. They've also shown even whilst the TfL side ran into issues, they can still spot a opportunity to revive something discarded by another operator such as the 84 which has been a success since they took it on so there will always be opportunities for them. They also do pretty well with film and TV work. In Netflix's Supacell, I was surprised to see them win the 78 contract when I saw one of their buses down in Peckham Rye!  |
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 7, 2024 15:50:13 GMT
Apologies for the late commentary, have been busy working in Brighton the past few days and couldn't comment on events unfolding Friday evening. The canary has stopped singing in the coalmine. There are no independent bus companies running routes in London. People have mentioned Uno but that's a big stretch to say it's independent considering they're being funded by a university! That's like a cafe owner saying he's independent, but his dad Gordon Ramsay helps him out. Not wishing to repeat anything from the last 16 pages of this thread, so here goes. A small business owner will very much be counting the pennies, and missing £330,000 in your budget is significant when TfL have billions in the budget and in reserves. Why should Dean Sullivan transfer money from his successful side of the business to essentially waste when costs are increasing & TfL are very reluctant to remedy the issue? I have been vocal about the low balling during the tendering process, maybe it's had its part in this issue. But businesses are to be run with going concern; trade today with the expectation of trading tomorrow. The fact that TfL has taken months to pay money Sullivan's are owed, in installments no less, in addition to giving little flexibility for their increased costs like other operators means it's was a deliberate push by TfL. I can't remember the company running emergency timetables to mitigate delays, so don't know if Sullivan's requested but TfL rejected. No offence to the big boys, but the smaller operators tend to do business with more care and a personal feel. HCT, TT and now Sullivan's will be taking away that customer service interface that was once award winning. Yes service quality may have plundered, but you made the best with what you have. Sullivan's didn't have. Such a shame someone so passionate about the bus industry is leaving London operations. I wish the best of luck to all the staff involved. We still don't know why TfL were witholding money - could it be to do with the astoundingly poor performance? We haven't and may never hear TfL's side of things. But what would've been your solution? More cash despite ongoing poor performance? As for the personal feel, the TfL interiors, the history posters in the alcove and the friendly regular drivers were nice and really endeared me to Sullivan's, but that all fell away during Covid. And furthermore, those are a lot further up the hierarchy of needs than the bus turn up, which it frequently didn't. There is an enthusiast keeness to have lots of small businesses involved with providing bus services, but do we actually want them? Many people up and down the country have suffered when small operators have gone rogue, or done a flounce like Mr Sullivan. Looks like TfL are baring it's teeth, according to some European outlets  |
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Post by Red Dragon on Aug 7, 2024 17:02:18 GMT
Speaking to intending passengers at Southgate today, they were very complimentary about the service on the W9, 299 and 298.
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Post by wirewiper on Aug 7, 2024 17:30:59 GMT
Speaking to intending passengers at Southgate today, they were very complimentary about the service on the W9, 299 and 298. I expect they are just relieved that their buses are actually turning up now! There was a similar situation when Metrobus took over the 127 in December 2005 after the years of disastrous operation under Mitcham Belle and Centra - within a few days, they were receiving unsolicited letters thanking them for taking the route over. |
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Post by randomy on Aug 7, 2024 18:08:21 GMT
We still don't know why TfL were witholding money - could it be to do with the astoundingly poor performance? We haven't and may never hear TfL's side of things. But what would've been your solution? More cash despite ongoing poor performance? As for the personal feel, the TfL interiors, the history posters in the alcove and the friendly regular drivers were nice and really endeared me to Sullivan's, but that all fell away during Covid. And furthermore, those are a lot further up the hierarchy of needs than the bus turn up, which it frequently didn't. There is an enthusiast keeness to have lots of small businesses involved with providing bus services, but do we actually want them? Many people up and down the country have suffered when small operators have gone rogue, or done a flounce like Mr Sullivan. Looks like TfL are baring it's teeth, according to some European outlets  AliExpress and Temu?? |
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it might cost a few bob to get seating re upholstered and buses repainted (though a lot of commercial buses retain London red).
Bustimes is not the most reliable of systems.
