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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 14:11:32 GMT
This is quite handy and cheap. www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/national-rail-map.pdfThe green lines is where you only pay the TFL fares on the rail. Which is quite cheap and cheerful. The ones on the red would be costly. But you pay extra on oyster. But its odd that London Overground is part of Network Rail... If you start from the red and you go to the green area, you only pay the through fare. But thankfully you can use the Northern City Line but only use TFL fares on oyster because the platforms on the station are adjacent to the LU platforms.  Why dont they include National Rail TFL fare lines onto the TFL Metro map? But for me, i only rely on price caps... |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 23, 2012 20:04:41 GMT
This is quite handy and cheap. www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/national-rail-map.pdfThe green lines is where you only pay the TFL fares on the rail. Which is quite cheap and cheerful. The ones on the red would be costly. But you pay extra on oyster. But its odd that London Overground is part of Network Rail... If you start from the red and you go to the green area, you only pay the through fare. But thankfully you can use the Northern City Line but only use TFL fares on oyster because the platforms on the station are adjacent to the LU platforms. Why dont they include National Rail TFL fare lines onto the TFL Metro map? But for me, i only rely on price caps... I am not sure I fully agree with your conclusions. National Rail PAYG fares are very similar to the TfL ones with only 10p or 20p difference. Sometimes the NR fare is cheaper than the TfL fare. The bigger issue is with the NR / TfL through fare where interchange is across Zone 1 using LU services. There is a £1.40 "supplement" on top of the NR fare for this. Now that is cheaper than paying a separate £2 for a Z1 tube fare but is way more than you would pay if you were able to travel entirely on the TfL tariff. If you are able to change between NR and TfL outside zone 1 and travel outside zone 1 then there is no supplement charged. That has not been changed for the 2013 fares increase so outer area fares will remain much cheaper than going through the centre. London Overground is not part of Network Rail. Network Rail only runs the track and signals and some stations. It does not operate passenger trains. London Overground is a Train Operating Company (TOC) and is part of the National Rail system. It charges TfL fares because TfL let the contract for operation of Overground services and decides what fares apply. Some other TOCs charge TfL fares because their routes run beside TfL underground lines and there is historical precedence for fares being the same on the tube and rail. C2C runs beside the District Line in East London and Chiltern shares tracks with the Met Line. It would be a nonsense to try to charge different fares on these shared services. The Northern City line has LU fares south of Finsbury Park because it used to be part of the LU network (Northern Line) - another piece of history influencing tickets and fares. Some other rail routes adopted Oyster PAYG before the major PAYG Agreement was put in place. This is why some routes charge the TfL tariff and not the National Rail one. The long term aspiration is to try to get one farescale but I think it will be a long time coming. Crossrail is likely to cause signficant problems because it will be a TfL service with TfL fares (inside the zones) without charging the "through service" premium. I suspect people elsewhere in London reliant on NR services and paying the Z1 supplement (e.g. on Thameslink) will complain bitterly about the disparity. We shall see in 2019! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2012 22:47:42 GMT
TFL should be taking over the majority of the rails and sub contracting it like the buses and give them the TFL Metro fares.
But with your idea of NR fares, i agree its cheap but would the oyster system be extended to far as Abredeen or Paris via the Eurostar? But it would be in the future.
But i wonder how TFL uses the Network Rail to agree with the fares and the travel arrangements like Travelcard zones to enable more commuters to use the system.
But there are express routes which follows the LU line which are from Farringdon Station to Upminster (Tower Hill to Upminster on District) and Marylebone to Amersham (Baker Street to Amersham on Metropolitan Line.) But they charge them with TFL fare.
I do not know why Heathrow Connect and express does not take oysters and travelcards for? They can do it with supplement.
I personally consider London Overground as a London Underground line because its sub surface like the District and Metropolitan Line.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 24, 2012 1:47:44 GMT
TFL should be taking over the majority of the rails and sub contracting it like the buses and give them the TFL Metro fares. But with your idea of NR fares, i agree its cheap but would the oyster system be extended to far as Abredeen or Paris via the Eurostar? But it would be in the future. But i wonder how TFL uses the Network Rail to agree with the fares and the travel arrangements like Travelcard zones to enable more commuters to use the system. But there are express routes which follows the LU line which are from Farringdon Station to Upminster (Tower Hill to Upminster on District) and Marylebone to Amersham (Baker Street to Amersham on Metropolitan Line.) But they charge them with TFL fare. I do not know why Heathrow Connect and express does not take oysters and travelcards for? They can do it with supplement. I personally consider London Overground as a London Underground line because its sub surface like the District and Metropolitan Line. Oyster is going to be largely replaced. TfL want to move people on to using contactless (EMV) bank cards with the daily or weekly cap being calculated from journey data and then a charge being made to people's bank accounts. The first phase with bank cards on buses starts fairly soon as all the garages have had their briefings and I believe the software mods to the ticket machines have been done too. Later on TfL will extend the system to all of their rail services (LU, DLR, Overground and Tramlink). I do not yet know when it will move to NR services that accept PAYG. On the National (not Network) Rail system the government is forcing the TOCs to adopt the ITSO smartcard specification. ITSO is used for all the English Concessionary Bus Passes. The TfL network is being upgraded to allow ITSO cards to be read on all TfL buses, ticket gates and validators. This therefore allows the TOCs to issue ITSO spec cards with compatible products that will work in London. In theory you should be able to have a smartcard that works on a Stagecoach bus in Eastbourne, on a Southern train to Victoria and then a TfL bus or tube. Quite what you would be charged is anyone's guess!! Go Ahead have ITSO smartcards working in the North East, Oxford, Brighton and Metrobus in Sussex. Unfortunately each scheme is local to each area and won't work in another area. Only in Oxford is there a joint ticket that works on Go Ahead, Stagecoach and Thames Travel services but at least it is a start. The PTE areas are also slowly introducing ITSO smartcard schemes for normal fare payers. Tyne and Wear has "Pop", West Midlands has "Swift" and Merseyside will have "Walrus". It is less clear what is happening in West and South Yorkshire and Greater Manchester. Some other councils have smart systems working - Stoke on Trent and West Chesire seem to have simple PAYG type schemes in operation. First Group have a national project to accept EMV and ITSO cards on all of their buses. Stagecoach also have some "Smart" tickets in areas like Cambridge and Manchester. Clearly using a national standard like ITSO will help matters but I cannot yet see how we will ever get to a point where you can have one smartcard in your pocket that will work across the country seamlessly. There is no obvious mechanism that will allocate the money for each journey you do to the right operator. This is why the bus operators are concentrating on local schemes where they manage the money. The final bit of the jigsaw is something called the South East Flexible Ticketing project which the government has given £45m for. This seems to be a scheme to extend ITSO to all TOCs and bus companies in the South East but which would also allow EMV card and Near Field Comms (NFC) spec mobile phones to be used too. Therefore, in theory, people will be able to use a smartcard, bank card or suitable mobile phone for travel across the south east. It is hard to find any detail but it seems 2014/15 is when the first big signs of changes will emerge once TfL has completed all the conversion work on its ticketing system. Part of the agenda is to use ticketing and pricing to try to offer move convenient ticket products but also to price people off the very busiest services and spread the commuter peak. Assuming everything runs to programme I would expect the 2014 fares revision (about 12-13 months from now) to be the one that starts to change things round. More changes will follow in 2015 before the next General Election. I don't think you will ever be able to do a PAYG journey from London to Aberdeen - the fares are too high and you'd need a big deposit on the card. What you will be able to do is order your ticket online and have it loaded to your smartcard when you touch in at the station. All very exciting but fraught with difficulties and challenges for people in the rail and bus industries. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2012 8:45:44 GMT
Wheres the source about the Oyster Card going to be replaced.
There is nowhere that the Oyster Card will be replaced. How will people have a yearly travelcard to travel on.
Well the ITSO smartcard should be combined with the oyster RFID cards... So it saves people changing the cards
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Post by snoggle on Nov 24, 2012 13:37:36 GMT
Wheres the source about the Oyster Card going to be replaced. There is nowhere that the Oyster Card will be replaced. How will people have a yearly travelcard to travel on. Well the ITSO smartcard should be combined with the oyster RFID cards... So it saves people changing the cards Go back and read what I wrote - I said "largely replaced". TfL clearly want to reduce costs and getting people to use bank cards (issued by banks not TfL) gets rids of the cost of Oyster cards for TfL. It is not yet clear what will happen in respect of long period tickets but it is not beyond the realms of possibility to track a year's worth of travel and to impose an annual cap on spending once people have spent the same amount as an annual ticket would cost. As I said you need to understand that this is still a project that is under development / implementation and I am sure things will change as to what is offered to the public and when and how it is provided. As for evidence then google for "TfL Future ticketing" or look for the GLA Transport Committee report on Ticketing. These will give you background as to what is going on. TfL provided evidence to the GLA on where the project was headed. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2012 15:08:33 GMT
Wheres the source about the Oyster Card going to be replaced. There is nowhere that the Oyster Card will be replaced. How will people have a yearly travelcard to travel on. Well the ITSO smartcard should be combined with the oyster RFID cards... So it saves people changing the cards Go back and read what I wrote - I said "largely replaced". TfL clearly want to reduce costs and getting people to use bank cards (issued by banks not TfL) gets rids of the cost of Oyster cards for TfL. It is not yet clear what will happen in respect of long period tickets but it is not beyond the realms of possibility to track a year's worth of travel and to impose an annual cap on spending once people have spent the same amount as an annual ticket would cost. As I said you need to understand that this is still a project that is under development / implementation and I am sure things will change as to what is offered to the public and when and how it is provided. As for evidence then google for "TfL Future ticketing" or look for the GLA Transport Committee report on Ticketing. These will give you background as to what is going on. TfL provided evidence to the GLA on where the project was headed. so how will the commuter would be able to have annual travel card on the bank card? How will ticket inspecting will be able to work if someone pays their fare with the bank card? |
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