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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jul 7, 2020 23:35:30 GMT
Not sure if it's still in production, but Arriva have some electric Streetlites in Milton Keynes. There was also the demonstrator that was used on the 360 briefly (WES1) - though a single decker, this was built on the Streetdeck chassis, so I assume Wright had planned a DD version of the StreetAir as well. Regarding the 7900, unless Volvo make this available at a shorter length, perhaps a version of its chassis could be combines with the MCV Evora. The Evora is available at around 10.8m so could be used for a lot of London routes, and Volvo are already confirmed to be introducing an electric DD with MCV. I dont understand why most routes capable of taking a 10.8m vehicle could not take a 12m vehicle. 12m vehicles are common in the UK, and can not think of reason that makes London unable to operate them ... it is not like the 10.8m are on a lightweight chassis like the diesel 10.8m vehicles creating fuel savings. I was, and still am hoping, that with electric vehicles and the return of the heavyweight chassis, full size single decks will make a return to the streets of London. Well there are naturally going to be cases where a 12m vehicle cannot perform some turns a 10.8m bus can due to their increased length. Over on the 294 there's an issue where the route can't take anything longer than 10.2 at all, to a point it couldn't even use the longer Tridents which were 10.5. There is also the argument where in London that by the time you get to the stage of needing a 12m vehicle you just reach the point of giving the route a decker conversion. 12m buses are only used in really rare circumstances, with a great chunk of them being due to extreme crowding but a restriction preventing deckers like the 521, 227 and 358.
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Post by SILENCED on Jul 7, 2020 23:46:58 GMT
I dont understand why most routes capable of taking a 10.8m vehicle could not take a 12m vehicle. 12m vehicles are common in the UK, and can not think of reason that makes London unable to operate them ... it is not like the 10.8m are on a lightweight chassis like the diesel 10.8m vehicles creating fuel savings. I was, and still am hoping, that with electric vehicles and the return of the heavyweight chassis, full size single decks will make a return to the streets of London. Well there are naturally going to be cases where a 12m vehicle cannot perform some turns a 10.8m bus can due to their increased length. Over on the 294 there's an issue where the route can't take anything longer than 10.2 at all, to a point it couldn't even use the longer Tridents which were 10.5. There is also the argument where in London that by the time you get to the stage of needing a 12m vehicle you just reach the point of giving the route a decker conversion. 12m buses are only used in really rare circumstances, with a great chunk of them being due to extreme crowding but a restriction preventing deckers like the 521, 227 and 358. But as you stated in your first paragraph there will be many instances where 12m singles decks are suitable. You then have an advantage that a 12m single deck is far more accessible than a decker, which is why they are still so widely used outside of London. This will be a big plus for London. You could probably look to convert some of the more lightly used decker routes to 12m sd
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Post by vjaska on Jul 7, 2020 23:53:35 GMT
Well there are naturally going to be cases where a 12m vehicle cannot perform some turns a 10.8m bus can due to their increased length. Over on the 294 there's an issue where the route can't take anything longer than 10.2 at all, to a point it couldn't even use the longer Tridents which were 10.5. There is also the argument where in London that by the time you get to the stage of needing a 12m vehicle you just reach the point of giving the route a decker conversion. 12m buses are only used in really rare circumstances, with a great chunk of them being due to extreme crowding but a restriction preventing deckers like the 521, 227 and 358. But as you stated in your first paragraph there will be many instances where 12m singles decks are suitable. You then have an advantage that a 12m single deck is far more accessible than a decker, which is why they are still so widely used outside of London. This will be a big plus for London. Are you advocating replacing double deckers with 12m single deckers because for me, that's a big no no - London is much different to the rest of the country in terms of the volume of people it's moving about hence why double deckers are much more useful. If no low bridge existed at Shortlands for example, the 227 & 358 would highly likely be using double deckers and for good reasons. 12m buses are widely used outside London on routes that generally do not need double deckers and usually because the roads outside London are not an archaic mess as a result of decades of traffic planning mismanagement meaning you can get longer buses down many roads
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Post by SILENCED on Jul 8, 2020 0:02:00 GMT
But as you stated in your first paragraph there will be many instances where 12m singles decks are suitable. You then have an advantage that a 12m single deck is far more accessible than a decker, which is why they are still so widely used outside of London. This will be a big plus for London. Are you advocating replacing double deckers with 12m single deckers because for me, that's a big no no - London is much different to the rest of the country in terms of the volume of people it's moving about hence why double deckers are much more useful. If no low bridge existed at Shortlands for example, the 227 & 358 would highly likely be using double deckers and for good reasons. 12m buses are widely used outside London on routes that generally do not need double deckers and usually because the roads outside London are not an archaic mess as a result of decades of traffic planning mismanagement meaning you can get longer buses down many roads In some instance yes I would advocate that. The latest London decker design is appalling judging by the Smart Hybrids on the 75 ... as many time on here I have referred to them as glorified cattle trucks. Full size single decks would be a huge improvement on the lighter used decker routes. Double deckers are not user friendly ... they (SDs) are used widely outside London as they want to attract custom, and what better way to do it than using the most customer friendly vehicles ... in London there is not an incentive for the operator to want to attract custom. Deckers should only really be used where there is clear evidence they are required for capacity reaaons. How many people really want to go upstairs on a decker?
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jul 8, 2020 0:05:46 GMT
Are you advocating replacing double deckers with 12m single deckers because for me, that's a big no no - London is much different to the rest of the country in terms of the volume of people it's moving about hence why double deckers are much more useful. If no low bridge existed at Shortlands for example, the 227 & 358 would highly likely be using double deckers and for good reasons. 12m buses are widely used outside London on routes that generally do not need double deckers and usually because the roads outside London are not an archaic mess as a result of decades of traffic planning mismanagement meaning you can get longer buses down many roads In some instance yes I would advocate that. The latest London decker design is appalling judging by the Smart Hybrids on the 75 ... as many time on here I have referred to them as glorified cattle trucks. Full size single decks would be a huge improvement on the lighter used decker routes. Double deckers are not user friendly ... they are used widely outside London as they want to attract custom, and what better way to do it than using the most customer friendly vehicles ... in London there is not an incentive for the operator to want to attract custom. Deckers should only really be used where there is clear evidence they are required for capacity reaaons. What? Are you referring to the removal of 2 seats for an extended wheelchair space? That hardly makes the buses cattle trucks. I much prefer this layout as it prevents people warring over buggies at bus stops. The 227s Citaros had an even larger buggy space so if anything those were more cattle truck like than any decker out there. The rest of the bus is basically the same as any bus prior to August 2018. If a route has 12m buses now, almost every example apart from maybe the 507 and 521 would heavily benefit from a decker conversion over their full length buses.
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Post by SILENCED on Jul 8, 2020 0:09:32 GMT
In some instance yes I would advocate that. The latest London decker design is appalling judging by the Smart Hybrids on the 75 ... as many time on here I have referred to them as glorified cattle trucks. Full size single decks would be a huge improvement on the lighter used decker routes. Double deckers are not user friendly ... they are used widely outside London as they want to attract custom, and what better way to do it than using the most customer friendly vehicles ... in London there is not an incentive for the operator to want to attract custom. Deckers should only really be used where there is clear evidence they are required for capacity reaaons. What? Are you referring to the removal of 2 seats for an extended wheelchair space? That hardly makes the buses cattle trucks. I much prefer this layout as it prevents people warring over buggies at bus stops. The 227s Citaros had an even larger buggy space so if anything those were more cattle truck like than any decker out there. The rest of the bus is basically the same as any bus prior to August 2018. If a route has 12m buses now, almost every example apart from maybe the 507 and 521 would heavily benefit from a decker conversion over their full length buses. How many accessible seats are there on those buses ... think it is just the 2 from memory ... just about sums it up. Even if it is 4, that is not great! Far more on a single deck. Oh and it was not great before this change either ... short deckers with large straight staircases ... a complete abomination in my eyes, and now very few lower deck seats!
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jul 8, 2020 0:28:20 GMT
What? Are you referring to the removal of 2 seats for an extended wheelchair space? That hardly makes the buses cattle trucks. I much prefer this layout as it prevents people warring over buggies at bus stops. The 227s Citaros had an even larger buggy space so if anything those were more cattle truck like than any decker out there. The rest of the bus is basically the same as any bus prior to August 2018. If a route has 12m buses now, almost every example apart from maybe the 507 and 521 would heavily benefit from a decker conversion over their full length buses. How many accessible seats are there on those buses ... think it is just the 2 from memory ... just about sums it up. Even if it is 4, that is not great! Far more on a single deck. Oh and it was not great before this change either ... short deckers with large straight staircases ... a complete abomination in my eyes, and now very few lower deck seats! There are 6, two in front of the rear doors and one behind. Should be more than enough, it is important you get far more people on rather than unnecessarily making every single seat accessible when it doesn't need to be.
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Post by SILENCED on Jul 8, 2020 0:36:46 GMT
How many accessible seats are there on those buses ... think it is just the 2 from memory ... just about sums it up. Even if it is 4, that is not great! Far more on a single deck. Oh and it was not great before this change either ... short deckers with large straight staircases ... a complete abomination in my eyes, and now very few lower deck seats! There are 6, two in front of the rear doors and one behind. Should be more than enough, it is important you get far more people on rather than unnecessarily making every single seat accessible when it doesn't need to be. Well that is not and attractive proposition in my eyes and probably why so many people choose to use their car / Uber and the likes. 'More important to get people on' seems you are advocating cattle truck treatment, when if we are going to increase bus usage, we need a warm, friendly, comfortable welcoming experience ... which the current offering falls flat on it face in all 4 of those requirements. New buses being delivered to London must deliver some of the most disappointing experiences when compared to a lot of buses in other parts of the country. London always used to lead the way ... now we lag behind
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Post by george on Jul 8, 2020 0:42:06 GMT
In some instance yes I would advocate that. The latest London decker design is appalling judging by the Smart Hybrids on the 75 ... as many time on here I have referred to them as glorified cattle trucks. Full size single decks would be a huge improvement on the lighter used decker routes. Double deckers are not user friendly ... they are used widely outside London as they want to attract custom, and what better way to do it than using the most customer friendly vehicles ... in London there is not an incentive for the operator to want to attract custom. Deckers should only really be used where there is clear evidence they are required for capacity reaaons. What? Are you referring to the removal of 2 seats for an extended wheelchair space? That hardly makes the buses cattle trucks. I much prefer this layout as it prevents people warring over buggies at bus stops. The 227s Citaros had an even larger buggy space so if anything those were more cattle truck like than any decker out there. The rest of the bus is basically the same as any bus prior to August 2018. If a route has 12m buses now, almost every example apart from maybe the 507 and 521 would heavily benefit from a decker conversion over their full length buses. I know H37 can't take double deckers because of the low bridge but if it could I don't think it would benefit from them. Very short route that most people would probably stay downstairs for. Obviously you could argue that the W7 is very short and people still go upstairs. Otherwise I agree that most 12m would benefit from a double decker conversion.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 8, 2020 3:56:06 GMT
There are 6, two in front of the rear doors and one behind. Should be more than enough, it is important you get far more people on rather than unnecessarily making every single seat accessible when it doesn't need to be. Well that is not and attractive proposition in my eyes and probably why so many people choose to use their car / Uber and the likes. 'More important to get people on' seems you are advocating cattle truck treatment, when if we are going to increase bus usage, we need a warm, friendly, comfortable welcoming experience ... which the current offering falls flat on it face in all 4 of those requirements. New buses being delivered to London must deliver some of the most disappointing experiences when compared to a lot of buses in other parts of the country. London always used to lead the way ... now we lag behind Your first line makes no sense - people are not using cars or Uber because of double deckers but rather because of things like congestion leading to slower speeds, cycle lanes being built over bus lanes, constant regulation of the service. Now the end of your next line is where you make a good point - it should have a warm, friendly & comfortable experience however that can be done with double deckers - just take a look at many of the UK's operators in other cities like Reading Buses, NCT or Lothian who have large double decker fleets.
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Post by foxhat on Jul 8, 2020 9:49:26 GMT
Are you advocating replacing double deckers with 12m single deckers because for me, that's a big no no - London is much different to the rest of the country in terms of the volume of people it's moving about hence why double deckers are much more useful. If no low bridge existed at Shortlands for example, the 227 & 358 would highly likely be using double deckers and for good reasons. 12m buses are widely used outside London on routes that generally do not need double deckers and usually because the roads outside London are not an archaic mess as a result of decades of traffic planning mismanagement meaning you can get longer buses down many roads In some instance yes I would advocate that. The latest London decker design is appalling judging by the Smart Hybrids on the 75 ... as many time on here I have referred to them as glorified cattle trucks. Full size single decks would be a huge improvement on the lighter used decker routes. Double deckers are not user friendly ... they (SDs) are used widely outside London as they want to attract custom, and what better way to do it than using the most customer friendly vehicles ... in London there is not an incentive for the operator to want to attract custom. Deckers should only really be used where there is clear evidence they are required for capacity reaaons. How many people really want to go upstairs on a decker? I would completely agree with you here
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 8, 2020 20:46:14 GMT
What? Are you referring to the removal of 2 seats for an extended wheelchair space? That hardly makes the buses cattle trucks. I much prefer this layout as it prevents people warring over buggies at bus stops. The 227s Citaros had an even larger buggy space so if anything those were more cattle truck like than any decker out there. The rest of the bus is basically the same as any bus prior to August 2018. If a route has 12m buses now, almost every example apart from maybe the 507 and 521 would heavily benefit from a decker conversion over their full length buses. I know H37 can't take double deckers because of the low bridge but if it could I don't think it would benefit from them. Very short route that most people would probably stay downstairs for. Obviously you could argue that the W7 is very short and people still go upstairs. Otherwise I agree that most 12m would benefit from a double decker conversion. Its quite possible had the H37 been able to take DDs then the 337 would simply have been a remembering of the Hounslow to Clapham junction and operated throu every 10 to 12 mins.
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Post by george on Jul 9, 2020 11:22:26 GMT
I wonder if an electric route would ever move garages with charging points being put into the new garage. Example. S win the 295 and 316 something has to move out so the route that moves out is the 70 with charging equipment installed at V to accommodate this move.
*this is not a tender prediction was just using these routes as an example.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jul 9, 2020 23:05:15 GMT
I wonder if an electric route would ever move garages with charging points being put into the new garage. Example. S win the 295 and 316 something has to move out so the route that moves out is the 70 with charging equipment installed at V to accommodate this move. *this is not a tender prediction was just using these routes as an example. If this happened in the short term, RATP do have nearby V and RP garages where new route gains could be run from. In the longer term, other garages will have electric infrastructure anyway.
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Post by snowman on Jul 27, 2020 7:49:03 GMT
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