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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2013 17:26:29 GMT
Before they got the HTLs got refurbished they all had tip up seats four on both sides. However, I do agree that most buses should have a layout as the HTLs as it creates more room for "Buggy Users" to wonder about plus less arguments would prob won't happen. But then again you do get some pax's out there who is just me, me, me. Yes, I thought this was a great idea, but now the wheelchair spaces mostly seem to getting smaller and smaller. Buses out of London seem to have enough space for 1 wheelchair + 2 buggies. Worked better IMO. www.flickr.com/photos/46341292@N05/5897240883/ Something like this? MPDs (at least, the ex-380 ones, not sure about others) have that sort of two-bay arrangement, it works quite well.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2013 17:36:55 GMT
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. Empty bus or not, I don't believe it's fair that if you want to get on the 276 bus you should have to clamber round a buggy or wait for two minutes while someone moves it. What if there's a large number of people waiting to get on the bus, and it's pouring with rain? Is it fair to make people stand in the rain while everyone squeezes round or asks this person to move their buggy inside the bus? I can understand where you're coming from that it's an empty bus and it might seem harmless, but nonetheless blocking the narrow gangway on the bus isn't particularly considerate, especially when the designated area, designed specifically for buggies, is ignored and the buggy plonked in the gangway instead. I can also understand people's frustrations, because neither is this a particularly isolated case - on this bus it's an empty one, I admit, but it's not always an empty one. I've had buses where the bus has been so crowded that no more people are allowed on, yet it's somehow acceptable for someone to ram their buggy on through the back doors and leave it blocking them. It makes it impossible to get off, and the blocking of the gangway is a potential fire hazard. If there was an emergency and I needed to alert the driver, I wouldn't particularly want to play hurdles with a buggy or argue with someone to move their buggy out of the way - it would not help the situation at all. I don't see this as a deliberate attack on other passengers by this person, I just see it as inconsiderate and not very well thought-out. Admittedly a picture doesn't give the full situation, but I'm not sure how a fat person is relevant here - anyone can sit in the priority seats, and anyone can vacate them when necessary. It would be an incomparable non-story (though I admit you are talking in a figurative extreme here!). However, this is generally not really acceptable in any situation, especially when buses have a designated area for buggies, and that is ignored even when completely empty! I admit the poll is a little extreme, as I think everything that needs to be said has already been said, here and elsewhere on another group. However, this photo is representative of a wider problem of inconsiderate bus users, be it people who unnecessarily block the gangway or people that take priority seats and don't give them up. It's not spiteful or malicious, it's just unnecessary and doesn't really exercise common sense. If I ever do something inconsiderate like this, please do feel free to criticise my actions and decisions. I don't think it's fair to make personal remarks, though - they're not really relevant to the situation. I'm sorry but neither of us know what this "example" is. We are judging from a photo and condemnatory comments. We have no real facts. We do have prejorative remarks like "baby factory" and "brat" in the original quote. Is that called for? We do not know if the woman in the photo would or would not move if the bus picked up more people. We do not know where on the 276 the photo was taken. If it was two stops off the end of the route then it hardly matters does it? Yes I have seen loads of buses jammed with buggies, I've had my feet run over and ankles bashed but I don't go round taking photos of the actual person and then stick it on facebook, do I? I have discussed the incidents but *without* all the sneering and condemnation that seems to be the norm these days. The "fat person" being referred to was me!! ;D I have seen how people make instant judgements and sneer at me for seating in those seats. The point is that I move out of the way if those seats are needed. People make the same "instant judgements" about fat people as they do about young mothers. I'd be as likely to appear on someone's Facebook video clips as some poor mother but my point is that one clip or still does not present the whole truth about any event. Would someone doing a video about "fat slobs making grannies stand" also add a later video about "fat slob no longer a slob and lets granny have a seat"? Unlikely because making rash judgements and making harsh unfounded remarks is much easier than a balanced view? I get wound up with people making snap judgements and then slagging off people on blogs and Facebook and the like in this sort of manner. The people who are featured have no right of reply. It's just wrong. I know I get a bit heated on here but it is in response to comments from other people who can see the remarks and who can respond if they wish. I don't quite understand what you think there is to be made a snap judgement of, sir. The picture says it all - there's a buggy in the gangway and the designated area was free. Your experiences of sneers from other people are a bit different - for a start, you're not breaking any rules by sitting in a seat. There's also no specific designated area you should be using, which was empty, even if you were breaking the rules. Lastly you weren't particularly an inconvenience, or worse, danger to other passengers. People being prejudiced about people's weight is a bit different to flouting a fairly necessary rule just out of lack of common sense. You're not a fire hazard, as I said, by sitting in a seat. I don't consider judging that buggy in a gangway as a fire hazard to be anything like a snap judgement - it clearly is. I do consider personal remarks about people to be snap judgements and prejudiced, but I've made sure I've generally refrained from them, not that I blame people that do get fed up when passengers are inconsiderate. Let's face the facts here, people making snap judgements and going on a rant is not a new thing - simply their outlet of choice for venting their frustrations is a new thing. I'm sure someone who got fed up with someone doing something like this on a bus 10 years ago wouldn't have just sat there seething to themselves, they would've probably had a little rant with their friends about it. All that's really changed here is the outlet of expression of frustrations. To be honest, I find it hard to sympathise with people who don't have any regard for the greater good, so I can understand people's frustrations. They're not frustrations on a personal level - I don't feel any personal dislike for that person, because I don't know who they are or what they're doing. Everyone's frustration, in this thread, and from the poster on Facebook I imagine is with the general situation. It could really be anyone sitting in that seat with a buggy blocking the gangway and I think people's frustrations would be the same. I can understand your "Let he who is perfect cast the first stone" perspective here, but I don't particularly think it makes a clearly unacceptable situation acceptable. Snap judgements and prejudice aside, I'm not sure it detracts from the obvious situation here.
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Post by rambo on Mar 24, 2013 0:05:16 GMT
No such thing as a buggy space on any london bus.
It's a very difficult one to call with shopping buggies. In rambos 'real world', nothing would be allowed in the aisle, but, it's nigh on impossible to enforce.
The problem with a buggy in the aisle is that if something goes wrong, the driver will get the blame.
The rule should be that prams/shopping trolleys go in the wheelchair area, when that is full, no more shopping trolleys, but imagine telling a granny she's not allowed on?
I'd like to see more front seats removed to allow more space, no big deal standing up on a bus, most people don't go the full length of the route anyway.
But the main reason there is problems is because of the slapdash attitude of my fellow drivers.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 24, 2013 22:07:42 GMT
No such thing as a buggy space on any london bus. It's a very difficult one to call with shopping buggies. In rambos 'real world', nothing would be allowed in the aisle, but, it's nigh on impossible to enforce. The problem with a buggy in the aisle is that if something goes wrong, the driver will get the blame. The rule should be that prams/shopping trolleys go in the wheelchair area, when that is full, no more shopping trolleys, but imagine telling a granny she's not allowed on? I'd like to see more front seats removed to allow more space, no big deal standing up on a bus, most people don't go the full length of the route anyway. But the main reason there is problems is because of the slapdash attitude of my fellow drivers. I don't agree that it is the "slapdash attitude" of the drivers. The policy is not terribly clear and it allows for discretion. I do not know if drivers receive consistent (i.e. the same training, London wide) training and support as to how to properly exercise discretion. It is not an easy thing to do given everyone has different characters and understanding. Drivers deserve proper help to implement the policy. Buses need to have much clearer publicity and signage about the policy so drivers can show it to passengers. Ideally a sign should be on the cab door or nearby. Finally I agree with your point about buses, maybe not every one or every type, needing more space for buggies. Operators outside London tend to do this better but then almost all of their buses are single door and with spiral stairs giving them more lower deck space to play with. They are also able to tolerate longer stop dwell times than London typically can.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 15:46:28 GMT
No such thing as a buggy space on any london bus. It's a very difficult one to call with shopping buggies. In rambos 'real world', nothing would be allowed in the aisle, but, it's nigh on impossible to enforce. The problem with a buggy in the aisle is that if something goes wrong, the driver will get the blame. The rule should be that prams/shopping trolleys go in the wheelchair area, when that is full, no more shopping trolleys, but imagine telling a granny she's not allowed on? I'd like to see more front seats removed to allow more space, no big deal standing up on a bus, most people don't go the full length of the route anyway. But the main reason there is problems is because of the slapdash attitude of my fellow drivers. I don't agree that it is the "slapdash attitude" of the drivers. The policy is not terribly clear and it allows for discretion. I do not know if drivers receive consistent (i.e. the same training, London wide) training and support as to how to properly exercise discretion. It is not an easy thing to do given everyone has different characters and understanding. Drivers deserve proper help to implement the policy. Buses need to have much clearer publicity and signage about the policy so drivers can show it to passengers. Ideally a sign should be on the cab door or nearby. Finally I agree with your point about buses, maybe not every one or every type, needing more space for buggies. Operators outside London tend to do this better but then almost all of their buses are single door and with spiral stairs giving them more lower deck space to play with. They are also able to tolerate longer stop dwell times than London typically can. Some drivers do have a slapdash attitude, they'll just sit there and let buggies on whether there is space or not, this makes it difficult for drivers who do try and enforce the rules such as they are.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 15:49:57 GMT
No such thing as a buggy space on any london bus. It's a very difficult one to call with shopping buggies. In rambos 'real world', nothing would be allowed in the aisle, but, it's nigh on impossible to enforce. The problem with a buggy in the aisle is that if something goes wrong, the driver will get the blame. The rule should be that prams/shopping trolleys go in the wheelchair area, when that is full, no more shopping trolleys, but imagine telling a granny she's not allowed on? I'd like to see more front seats removed to allow more space, no big deal standing up on a bus, most people don't go the full length of the route anyway. But the main reason there is problems is because of the slapdash attitude of my fellow drivers. I can't agree with removing seats, there are often not enough to go round as it is, and for some people standing on a bus is a 'big deal' regardless of whether they are going the full length of the route or not.
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Post by rambo on Mar 26, 2013 22:49:56 GMT
Buses need to have much clearer publicity and signage about the policy so drivers can show it to passengers. Ideally a sign should be on the cab door or nearby.
Just behind where I sit as a driver is a sign telling people not to talk to the driver whilst vehcile is moving, no one takes any notice.
Drivers need to do the job all the same.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2013 9:23:55 GMT
Buses need to have much clearer publicity and signage about the policy so drivers can show it to passengers. Ideally a sign should be on the cab door or nearby. Just behind where I sit as a driver is a sign telling people not to talk to the driver whilst vehcile is moving, no one takes any notice. Drivers need to do the job all the same. However many drivers are quite happy to chat to friends or colleagues whilst driving.
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Post by rambo on Mar 27, 2013 23:23:31 GMT
Buses need to have much clearer publicity and signage about the policy so drivers can show it to passengers. Ideally a sign should be on the cab door or nearby. Just behind where I sit as a driver is a sign telling people not to talk to the driver whilst vehcile is moving, no one takes any notice. Drivers need to do the job all the same. However many drivers are quite happy to chat to friends or colleagues whilst driving. Agreed.
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Post by wh541 on Mar 30, 2013 14:01:45 GMT
Just see a argument on a 473 a passenger with a buggy refused to fold her pram up for a wheelchair user. The driver offered the passenger a transfer ticket! Really felt for the wheelchair user she was embarrassed. People need educating low floor buses are not just for buggies. Go back 15 years and all prams had to be folded some people don't realise how lucky they are. Rant over!
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Post by rambo on Mar 30, 2013 14:25:10 GMT
Just see a argument on a 473 a passenger with a buggy refused to fold her pram up for a wheelchair user. The driver offered the passenger a transfer ticket! Really felt for the wheelchair user she was embarrassed. People need educating low floor buses are not just for buggies. Go back 15 years and all prams had to be folded some people don't realise how lucky they are. Rant over! The thing is, she does not have to fold the pram, but, what sort of person leaves a wheelchair user at the side of the raod because she won't fold her buggy..................................
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 14:41:12 GMT
Just see a argument on a 473 a passenger with a buggy refused to fold her pram up for a wheelchair user. The driver offered the passenger a transfer ticket! Really felt for the wheelchair user she was embarrassed. People need educating low floor buses are not just for buggies. Go back 15 years and all prams had to be folded some people don't realise how lucky they are. Rant over! Maybe she had a good reason not to fold the buggy or wait for the next bus I don't know but its a matter for her and her conscience. No reason why the wheelchair users should have felt embarrased about it.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 30, 2013 19:32:55 GMT
Just see a argument on a 473 a passenger with a buggy refused to fold her pram up for a wheelchair user. The driver offered the passenger a transfer ticket! Really felt for the wheelchair user she was embarrassed. People need educating low floor buses are not just for buggies. Go back 15 years and all prams had to be folded some people don't realise how lucky they are. Rant over! Maybe she had a good reason not to fold the buggy or wait for the next bus I don't know but its a matter for her and her conscience. No reason why the wheelchair users should have felt embarrased about it. I'm sorry but no buggy user has a good reason to not fold her buggy to allow a wheelchair user to board. The problem is they have it far too easy these days where as a wheelchair user has to struggle around the transport network. What the rules should be is that all buggys should have to be folded regardless and that the wheelchair area is for wheelchair users or if no one in a wheelchair is in that area, then tip up seating should be reintroduced increasing seated capacity.
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Post by wh541 on Mar 30, 2013 22:36:14 GMT
Maybe she had a good reason not to fold the buggy or wait for the next bus I don't know but its a matter for her and her conscience. No reason why the wheelchair users should have felt embarrased about it. I'm sorry but no buggy user has a good reason to not fold her buggy to allow a wheelchair user to board. The problem is they have it far too easy these days where as a wheelchair user has to struggle around the transport network. What the rules should be is that all buggys should have to be folded regardless and that the wheelchair area is for wheelchair users or if no one in a wheelchair is in that area, then tip up seating should be reintroduced increasing seated capacity. the woman with buggy had serious issues and gave a reason of not knowing how to fold the buggy down! The driver was stern but she wouldn't budge! I have seen the new posters on bus stops etc but will TFL be introducing firm rules that make it law that weelchair users take the space?
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