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Post by sw11simon on Apr 29, 2013 17:49:40 GMT
This has been going on for years and the main issue with the 343 is chronic peak overcrowding through an area where on the whole it is the only route and lacks in other transport modes. Passengers are continuously left behind. I would personally think there is a possible solution by splitting route 12, which runs every 5/6 minutes but is overbussed at either end. Therefore the Dulwich to Oxford Circus route could be reduced to a bus every 10/12 minutes and a new route starting at Peckham Rye operates via Southampton and 343 route onto Elephant and Castle and then (to maybe add a new link) to County Hall and then terminate at Vauxhall via Lambeth Palace Road and Albert Embankment. Alternatively it could continue to Oxford Circus but in my experience enough capacity would exist here with the 12/453 (both of which empty considerably at Elephant) and ability to change onto 159 on Westminster Bridge Road. The reduction of the Dulwich-Peckham section (which is seriously overbussed with route 12) would pay towards the new route. My only concern would be capacity between Peckham and Camberwell (12, 36, 171, 345 and 436 still would provide a very good service here though), that could need a look. Walworth Road has enough buses along it.
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Post by M1104 on Apr 29, 2013 22:00:11 GMT
This has been going on for years and the main issue with the 343 is chronic peak overcrowding through an area where on the whole it is the only route and lacks in other transport modes. Passengers are continuously left behind. I would personally think there is a possible solution by splitting route 12, which runs every 5/6 minutes but is overbussed at either end. Therefore the Dulwich to Oxford Circus route could be reduced to a bus every 10/12 minutes and a new route starting at Peckham Rye operates via Southampton and 343 route onto Elephant and Castle and then (to maybe add a new link) to County Hall and then terminate at Vauxhall via Lambeth Palace Road and Albert Embankment. Alternatively it could continue to Oxford Circus but in my experience enough capacity would exist here with the 12/453 (both of which empty considerably at Elephant) and ability to change onto 159 on Westminster Bridge Road. The reduction of the Dulwich-Peckham section (which is seriously overbussed with route 12) would pay towards the new route. My only concern would be capacity between Peckham and Camberwell (12, 36, 171, 345 and 436 still would provide a very good service here though), that could need a look. Walworth Road has enough buses along it. I like that idea. However wouldn't TFL offer the new route out for tender beforehand? |
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Post by sw11simon on Apr 30, 2013 2:45:16 GMT
This has been going on for years and the main issue with the 343 is chronic peak overcrowding through an area where on the whole it is the only route and lacks in other transport modes. Passengers are continuously left behind. I would personally think there is a possible solution by splitting route 12, which runs every 5/6 minutes but is overbussed at either end. Therefore the Dulwich to Oxford Circus route could be reduced to a bus every 10/12 minutes and a new route starting at Peckham Rye operates via Southampton and 343 route onto Elephant and Castle and then (to maybe add a new link) to County Hall and then terminate at Vauxhall via Lambeth Palace Road and Albert Embankment. Alternatively it could continue to Oxford Circus but in my experience enough capacity would exist here with the 12/453 (both of which empty considerably at Elephant) and ability to change onto 159 on Westminster Bridge Road. The reduction of the Dulwich-Peckham section (which is seriously overbussed with route 12) would pay towards the new route. My only concern would be capacity between Peckham and Camberwell (12, 36, 171, 345 and 436 still would provide a very good service here though), that could need a look. Walworth Road has enough buses along it. I like that idea. However wouldn't TFL offer the new route out for tender beforehand? It is possible it could be done as a re-negotiation of the route 12 contract. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2013 0:14:26 GMT
The best way for save the money is divert 148 from Elephant via 343 route to Peckham Rye. As the most congestion section on 343 is from Elephant to Peckham & Walworth Road already got too many bus anyway. So it could be the best opition.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2013 9:20:58 GMT
The best way for save the money is divert 148 from Elephant via 343 route to Peckham Rye. As the most congestion section on 343 is from Elephant to Peckham & Walworth Road already got too many bus anyway. So it could be the best opition. You would cut off the popular links from Camberwell/Walworth to destinations on the 148 however. I know everyone talks about overbussing on Walworth Road but then I have two thoughts about that - a) An overbussed section is the natural effect of a hub like Camberwell, and b) I'm not sure the way to solve it is to cut unique links, rather remove those that are duplicated. |
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Post by snoggle on May 10, 2013 9:57:18 GMT
How about diverting the 45 from Camberwell Green along Peckham Road to then pick up and run over the 343 corridor to Elephant & Castle? This would take a few extra buses but perhaps the 45 could see its frequency trimmed a bit to ease the increase in PVR? A quick look at the relative running times shows a reduction from x8 to x10 would be enough to allow for the diversion. An extra 6 bph via the 343 corridor should be more than enough additional capacity.
The 35 and 45 have a long overlap from Brixton northwards so could the 35 cope in dealing with the displaced 45 traffic to / from Walworth Road?
I confess I don't know the loadings of the differing services along the key sections but the above would create several new links, avoids establishing a brand new service and could be achieved within existing vehicle resources given GAL have spare vehicles (older PVLs) knocking around.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2013 10:15:15 GMT
How about diverting the 45 from Camberwell Green along Peckham Road to then pick up and run over the 343 corridor to Elephant & Castle? This would take a few extra buses but perhaps the 45 could see its frequency trimmed a bit to ease the increase in PVR? A quick look at the relative running times shows a reduction from x8 to x10 would be enough to allow for the diversion. An extra 6 bph via the 343 corridor should be more than enough additional capacity. The 35 and 45 have a long overlap from Brixton northwards so could the 35 cope in dealing with the displaced 45 traffic to / from Walworth Road? I confess I don't know the loadings of the differing services along the key sections but the above would create several new links, avoids establishing a brand new service and could be achieved within existing vehicle resources given GAL have spare vehicles (older PVLs) knocking around. Another solution might be to divert the 40 from Dulwich up to Peckham via the 12, and then along the 343 routing to the Elephant. Probably wouldn't need any extra buses, and there would still be the 176 and 185 along the Dulwich - Camberwell corridor, and the 35 to destinations along the Camberwell - Monument corridor. Dulwich to London Bridge et al wouldn't be lost as a link. |
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Post by vjaska on May 10, 2013 12:22:16 GMT
How about diverting the 45 from Camberwell Green along Peckham Road to then pick up and run over the 343 corridor to Elephant & Castle? This would take a few extra buses but perhaps the 45 could see its frequency trimmed a bit to ease the increase in PVR? A quick look at the relative running times shows a reduction from x8 to x10 would be enough to allow for the diversion. An extra 6 bph via the 343 corridor should be more than enough additional capacity. The 35 and 45 have a long overlap from Brixton northwards so could the 35 cope in dealing with the displaced 45 traffic to / from Walworth Road? I confess I don't know the loadings of the differing services along the key sections but the above would create several new links, avoids establishing a brand new service and could be achieved within existing vehicle resources given GAL have spare vehicles (older PVLs) knocking around. The 35 & 45 take fairly heavy loadings though I'd say the 35 is slightly the busier of the two routes. The 35 would probably be slightly more appealing in the sense it follows parts of the 345 between Clapham Junction & Camberwell Green so maybe you could slightly decrease the 345 at the same time. Only a thought as myself is unsure which route is best. |
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Post by snoggle on May 10, 2013 13:58:17 GMT
How about diverting the 45 from Camberwell Green along Peckham Road to then pick up and run over the 343 corridor to Elephant & Castle? This would take a few extra buses but perhaps the 45 could see its frequency trimmed a bit to ease the increase in PVR? A quick look at the relative running times shows a reduction from x8 to x10 would be enough to allow for the diversion. An extra 6 bph via the 343 corridor should be more than enough additional capacity. The 35 and 45 have a long overlap from Brixton northwards so could the 35 cope in dealing with the displaced 45 traffic to / from Walworth Road? I confess I don't know the loadings of the differing services along the key sections but the above would create several new links, avoids establishing a brand new service and could be achieved within existing vehicle resources given GAL have spare vehicles (older PVLs) knocking around. Another solution might be to divert the 40 from Dulwich up to Peckham via the 12, and then along the 343 routing to the Elephant. Probably wouldn't need any extra buses, and there would still be the 176 and 185 along the Dulwich - Camberwell corridor, and the 35 to destinations along the Camberwell - Monument corridor. Dulwich to London Bridge et al wouldn't be lost as a link. Hadn't thought about that. I wonder if the 40 starts where it does to give relief to the 176 north of Peckham Rye? It all depends on how strong a flow there is via Denmark Hill to Walworth Road which requires the capacity of two services. I suppose another variant of my idea is to split the 45 so half of the frequency runs as now and the other half runs (445?) as per proposal to divert via N Peckham / Burgess Park. You would get an approximate x15 headway on each section with existing links maintained and new ones created. Given the slightly different running times you would not get ideal headways south of Camberwell or north of Elephant. Someone would need to decide where the "balanced" headway was more important. The 45 has a current PVR of 22 buses on a 8 min headway, round trip time 176 mins. I reckon my revised 45 / 445 would require 24 buses, 12 on each at x15 headway, round trip time 180 mins for each route. That might be a tiny bit tight on the 445. I suspect an experienced scheduler could take a view about getting the combined PVR down if the routes inter-worked at one or both termini. The current turn round time looks fairly generous so it might be possibly to adjust it slightly to cover the 445's longer run time. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2013 14:53:00 GMT
Another solution might be to divert the 40 from Dulwich up to Peckham via the 12, and then along the 343 routing to the Elephant. Probably wouldn't need any extra buses, and there would still be the 176 and 185 along the Dulwich - Camberwell corridor, and the 35 to destinations along the Camberwell - Monument corridor. Dulwich to London Bridge et al wouldn't be lost as a link. Hadn't thought about that. I wonder if the 40 starts where it does to give relief to the 176 north of Peckham Rye? It all depends on how strong a flow there is via Denmark Hill to Walworth Road which requires the capacity of two services. I suppose another variant of my idea is to split the 45 so half of the frequency runs as now and the other half runs (445?) as per proposal to divert via N Peckham / Burgess Park. You would get an approximate x15 headway on each section with existing links maintained and new ones created. Given the slightly different running times you would not get ideal headways south of Camberwell or north of Elephant. Someone would need to decide where the "balanced" headway was more important. The 45 has a current PVR of 22 buses on a 8 min headway, round trip time 176 mins. I reckon my revised 45 / 445 would require 24 buses, 12 on each at x15 headway, round trip time 180 mins for each route. That might be a tiny bit tight on the 445. I suspect an experienced scheduler could take a view about getting the combined PVR down if the routes inter-worked at one or both termini. The current turn round time looks fairly generous so it might be possibly to adjust it slightly to cover the 445's longer run time. Don't forget nearby in the Denmark Hill area there is the highly provisioned 68/468 pairing. As far as I can see the only area that would lose out is East Dulwich - Denmark Hill has the nearby 68/468 pairing as well as the 176, and Dulwich has the 12, 176. Perhaps a compensatory frequency increase on the 176 to 7-8 mins? |
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Post by eggmiester on May 11, 2013 21:32:58 GMT
Even if you do split the 45 into 2 (45 and 445) I wouldn't have them at a 15 min headway each, that would be impossible to manage and maintain given the traffic conditions. Having both on a headway of 10 mins or less (particularly in the peaks) would suffice.
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Post by M1104 on May 12, 2013 12:05:41 GMT
How about diverting the 45 from Camberwell Green along Peckham Road to then pick up and run over the 343 corridor to Elephant & Castle? This would take a few extra buses but perhaps the 45 could see its frequency trimmed a bit to ease the increase in PVR? A quick look at the relative running times shows a reduction from x8 to x10 would be enough to allow for the diversion. An extra 6 bph via the 343 corridor should be more than enough additional capacity. The 35 and 45 have a long overlap from Brixton northwards so could the 35 cope in dealing with the displaced 45 traffic to / from Walworth Road? I confess I don't know the loadings of the differing services along the key sections but the above would create several new links, avoids establishing a brand new service and could be achieved within existing vehicle resources given GAL have spare vehicles (older PVLs) knocking around. Another solution might be to divert the 40 from Dulwich up to Peckham via the 12, and then along the 343 routing to the Elephant. Probably wouldn't need any extra buses, and there would still be the 176 and 185 along the Dulwich - Camberwell corridor, and the 35 to destinations along the Camberwell - Monument corridor. Dulwich to London Bridge et al wouldn't be lost as a link. The thing about the 40 is that it's the only route passing outside Fenchurch Street station. It would mean that areas like Walworth Road and Camberwell would lose that direct link, unless perhaps the 35 is diverted that way to Aldgate then via the 78 to Shoreditch (slight pvr increase or reduced frequency for the rerouting). |
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Post by snoggle on May 12, 2013 17:50:43 GMT
Even if you do split the 45 into 2 (45 and 445) I wouldn't have them at a 15 min headway each, that would be impossible to manage and maintain given the traffic conditions. Having both on a headway of 10 mins or less (particularly in the peaks) would suffice. Sorry for being a bit thick but are you saying each should be every 10 minutes or each every 20 to give a joint 10 minute headway on shared sections? I think x10 for each would be complete overkill - I can't believe there is the demand for a x5 shared headway from Atkins Avenue to Camberwell Green given other overlapping services. |
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Post by vjaska on May 13, 2013 0:06:47 GMT
Even if you do split the 45 into 2 (45 and 445) I wouldn't have them at a 15 min headway each, that would be impossible to manage and maintain given the traffic conditions. Having both on a headway of 10 mins or less (particularly in the peaks) would suffice. Sorry for being a bit thick but are you saying each should be every 10 minutes or each every 20 to give a joint 10 minute headway on shared sections? I think x10 for each would be complete overkill - I can't believe there is the demand for a x5 shared headway from Atkins Avenue to Camberwell Green given other overlapping services. Don't mean to correct you but it's Atkins Road rather than Atkins Avenue. Can I ask, where would the amended 45 & 445 run between: Both run over the current 45 but the 445 diverts via the 12 & 343 or 45 runs from Clapham Park to Farringdon & 445 running from Brixton to Kings Cross via Camberwell Green, Southampton Way, Aylesbury Estate, then the current 45 to Kings Cross. |
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Post by sw11simon on May 13, 2013 7:20:59 GMT
The section between Dulwich Library and Camberwell via East Dulwich has extremely heavy loadings during peak periods. If you took the 40 away the 176/185 would leave a lot of people behind so diverting the 40 over an already overbussed section (Barry Road to Peckham) would not be a satisfactory solution to me. Stand in Champion Hill in the morning peak and look at the loadings and this suggestion would become null and void.
The 148 is long enough imo and would take away important links if withdrawn from Walworth Road - a lot of people travel to Victoria Street and beyond on this route.
The 45 also does it's own thing after Walworth Road, and is busy. If diverted or split people would let it pass, or the diverted route, go past and I don't think the already very busy 35 would cope with loadings. The 35 itself is, like the 148 long enough and very well used. It should not be touched.
68/468 - 68 is well used and direct, should not be touched. There is probably excess capacity on the 468 between Camberwell and Elephant. Resources could be released from this route by cutting it back to Camberwell off peak - it is very lightly loaded between Camberwell and Elephant off peak and a lot of passengers to change at Camberwell from this route. This would be limited though as you would not want to withdraw the peak service and thus it would need to keep a similar PVR with limited subsequent savings. The 468 is heavily used all the time south of Camberwell and again, already a long route.
The 176 don't think about changing!
So that leaves the 12 again (unless I've missed anything). Barry Road to Peckham is well overbussed with a 12 every 4/5 mins plus the 197. Once it gets by Peckham Rye the 63/363 take a quicker commuter route to the key traffic aim, Elephant. So I still think the lowest cost solution would be to split the 12, reducing the service between Barry Road and Peckham and diverting some of the route. Maybe a 12 in existing form every 8 minutes or so and a new route from Peckham/ Peckham Rye via Southampton Way and 343 route every 10 minutes would be the best solution. In peaks route 12 is 15 bph. This suggestion would give 6 bph on the new route and 7.5 bph on the 12 so should be quite cost effective to introduce. Unless new funding can support a new route without touching an existing one (unlikely) I think it is the best option.
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