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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 11:49:39 GMT
Most traditional routes seem to have started up in the early 1950's. Are there any of those 1950's routes that still survive intact?
Extension at either end counts provided core route remains intact.
Deviation due to new road layout or a new development counts provided basic complete route remains intact.
Anyone genuinely knowledgeable about the history of London's bus routes is welcome to list "chopped up" routes as there was a period when London Transport decided that some routes were simply too long and divided up the one long route into two or even three shorter routes.
I remember the 73 although it no longer serves its original core destination - that was extended at various times, at the western end, out to Richmond and even Hounslow. Similar thing with the 37 that used to operate Peckham-Hounslow.
If anyone can recomment a book or website dealing exclusively with the history of London's bus routes, please let me know. Rather fascinated with the idea of the 117 having gone on from Staines and Egham right out to Windsor at one time.
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Post by LX09FBJ on Jul 19, 2013 12:15:12 GMT
Most traditional routes seem to have started up in the early 1950's. Are there any of those 1950's routes that still survive intact? Extension at either end counts provided core route remains intact. Deviation due to new road layout or a new development counts provided basic complete route remains intact. Anyone genuinely knowledgeable about the history of London's bus routes is welcome to list "chopped up" routes as there was a period when London Transport decided that some routes were simply too long and divided up the one long route into two or even three shorter routes. I remember the 73 although it no longer serves its original core destination - that was extended at various times, at the western end, out to Richmond and even Hounslow. Similar thing with the 37 that used to operate Peckham-Hounslow. If anyone can recomment a book or website dealing exclusively with the history of London's bus routes, please let me know. Rather fascinated with the idea of the 117 having gone on from Staines and Egham right out to Windsor at one time. Ian Armstrong's www.londonbuses.co.uk website is a very good source for the history of London's routes, and some of the photo pages at www.londonbusroutes.net give a brief history of routes as well. I think 25 from Oxford Circus to Ilford or 113 Edgware-Marble Arch (only slightly shorter than the 1950s route) would be my guess Some of the STL-era routes were ridiculously long e.g. the 6 ran from Willesden to Leyton! The 37 now runs in three almost overlapping sections: Peckham to Putney, Clapham Junction to Richmond and Richmond to Hounslow. I think that they should extend the 37 to Richmond, or at least create an N37 route to Richmond. I think routes should be long. Now I know most people will try mock me, but the 73 once ran from Stoke Newington to Hounslow. Now for me to do the same journey today, I would have to: - Start at Stoke Newington and take the 73 down to any point between King's Cross and Marble Arch
- Change onto route 10 between King's Cross and Marble Arch to Hammersmith
- At Hammersmith change onto 33 to Richmond
- Finally, at Richmond take H22 to Hounslow
Whereas in the late 1950s/early 1960s I could take one bus all the way. |
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Post by Hassaan on Jul 19, 2013 12:21:35 GMT
Most traditional routes seem to have started up in the early 1950's. Are there any of those 1950's routes that still survive intact? Extension at either end counts provided core route remains intact. Deviation due to new road layout or a new development counts provided basic complete route remains intact. Anyone genuinely knowledgeable about the history of London's bus routes is welcome to list "chopped up" routes as there was a period when London Transport decided that some routes were simply too long and divided up the one long route into two or even three shorter routes. I remember the 73 although it no longer serves its original core destination - that was extended at various times, at the western end, out to Richmond and even Hounslow. Similar thing with the 37 that used to operate Peckham-Hounslow. If anyone can recomment a book or website dealing exclusively with the history of London's bus routes, please let me know. Rather fascinated with the idea of the 117 having gone on from Staines and Egham right out to Windsor at one time. Ian Armstrong's www.londonbuses.co.uk website is a very good source for the history of London's routes, and some of the photo pages at www.londonbusroutes.net give a brief history of routes as well. I think 25 from Oxford Circus to Ilford would be my guess Some of the STL-era routes were ridiculously long e.g. the 6 ran from Willesden to Leyton! The 37 now runs in three almost overlapping sections: Peckham to Putney, Clapham Junction to Richmond and Richmond to Hounslow. I think that they should extend the 37 to Richmond, or at least create an N37 route to Richmond. I think routes should be long. Now I know most people will try mock me, but the 73 once ran from Stoke Newington to Hounslow. Now for me to do the same journey today, I would have to: - Start at Stoke Newington and take the 73 down to any point between King's Cross and Marble Arch
- Change onto route 10 between King's Cross and Marble Arch to Hammersmith
- At Hammersmith change onto 33 to Richmond
- Finally, at Richmond take H22 to Hounslow
Whereas in the late 1950s/early 1960s I could take one bus all the way. It could be that buses ran in sections over the long route, something the 207 for example retained until 2005. Longest unchanged route is the 24. |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 19, 2013 12:21:47 GMT
In more recent times the 107 used to hold the record for longest route but that was before it was chopped into the 107 and 307. I believe it used to run Queensbury to Brimsdown Station (happy to be corrected). The other issue you need to be careful with is routes that looked very long but where there were never or only very rarely buses that ran from one to the other rather than running in sections (often linked to where garages were). This website gives a good historical overview of LT Central Area routes back to about 1950 or so. Clearly if you go back before 1970 when London Country was hived off from LT and you include Green Line routes then there were some very long routes indeed. |
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Post by snowman on Jul 19, 2013 12:22:42 GMT
I think this is going to be a question of definition, a few routes started about a century ago (but have had routing changes or been shortened). Some of the books on LGOC have historic details in them. Other routes were originally independants and to avoid duplication were renumbered. Some numbers have been reused, for instance the 106 was derived from a split 87, but the number was used 100 years ago in 1913 as a West End - to Richmond route (extended to Petersham for a while)
The next NB4L conversion, route 11 started in 1906 but is not identical to its current form, would be interesting to work out longest unchanged though. Any change to terminus stand or minor re-routing (even something like the gyratory at Piccadilly Circus being introduced would disqualify a route from unchanged, years before Eros was resited from the middle of circus, at one time could drive either way around it)
There are also a few companies that had joint workings and as ownership changed some changes took place (eg Surrey had some routes that had letter S added when LGOC took a stake, later renumbered in 400s, the Surrey 6 (now 406) to Kingston is a survivor (although changed) and a racecourse special version (now 406F also survives)
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Post by vjaska on Jul 19, 2013 12:25:25 GMT
Most traditional routes seem to have started up in the early 1950's. Are there any of those 1950's routes that still survive intact? Extension at either end counts provided core route remains intact. Deviation due to new road layout or a new development counts provided basic complete route remains intact. Anyone genuinely knowledgeable about the history of London's bus routes is welcome to list "chopped up" routes as there was a period when London Transport decided that some routes were simply too long and divided up the one long route into two or even three shorter routes. I remember the 73 although it no longer serves its original core destination - that was extended at various times, at the western end, out to Richmond and even Hounslow. Similar thing with the 37 that used to operate Peckham-Hounslow. If anyone can recomment a book or website dealing exclusively with the history of London's bus routes, please let me know. Rather fascinated with the idea of the 117 having gone on from Staines and Egham right out to Windsor at one time. Ian Armstrong's www.londonbuses.co.uk website is a very good source for the history of London's routes, and some of the photo pages at www.londonbusroutes.net give a brief history of routes as well. I think 25 from Oxford Circus to Ilford would be my guess Some of the STL-era routes were ridiculously long e.g. the 6 ran from Willesden to Leyton! The 37 now runs in three almost overlapping sections: Peckham to Putney, Clapham Junction to Richmond and Richmond to Hounslow. I think that they should extend the 37 to Richmond, or at least create an N37 route to Richmond. I think routes should be long. Now I know most people will try mock me, but the 73 once ran from Stoke Newington to Hounslow. Now for me to do the same journey today, I would have to: - Start at Stoke Newington and take the 73 down to any point between King's Cross and Marble Arch
- Change onto route 10 between King's Cross and Marble Arch to Hammersmith
- At Hammersmith change onto 33 to Richmond
- Finally, at Richmond take H22 to Hounslow
Whereas in the late 1950s/early 1960s I could take one bus all the way. The 37 would become more unreliable if extended as you've then got running along good sized chunk of the South Circular. I'm sure everyone east of Brixton would be mightily unhappy with their bus service becoming unreliable particularly the lone sections between Herne Hill & North Dulwich & between North Dulwich & East Dulwich. IMO, all the 37 needs is a higher frequency & along with the 35, extra capacity between Clapham Junction & Clapham Common in the form of an extended 49 or 417. |
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Post by vjaska on Jul 19, 2013 12:44:20 GMT
Going by what 'jammy' was saying, the 35's Clapham Common to Shoreditch section has been the same (apart from minor alterations such as buses towards Shoreditch not using the Stockwell Road one way system) since 1940 - the route back then started at Clapham Common Old Town and finished at Chingford Hatch - overlapping sections wern't introduced until 1964.
The 250 could be one with the fewest changes - been running since 1988 and the only changes to its route is the stand in Croydon - started out as Katherine Street before moving to Park Street & then Fairfield Halls, the road changes in Croydon caused by the introduction of Tramlink, the turning of North End into a pedestrian zone & the introduction of two way traffic on the section of Brixton Hill outside the Town Hall.
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Post by John tuthill on Jul 19, 2013 12:51:16 GMT
Ian Armstrong's www.londonbuses.co.uk website is a very good source for the history of London's routes, and some of the photo pages at www.londonbusroutes.net give a brief history of routes as well. I think 25 from Oxford Circus to Ilford would be my guess Some of the STL-era routes were ridiculously long e.g. the 6 ran from Willesden to Leyton! The 37 now runs in three almost overlapping sections: Peckham to Putney, Clapham Junction to Richmond and Richmond to Hounslow. I think that they should extend the 37 to Richmond, or at least create an N37 route to Richmond. I think routes should be long. Now I know most people will try mock me, but the 73 once ran from Stoke Newington to Hounslow. Now for me to do the same journey today, I would have to: - Start at Stoke Newington and take the 73 down to any point between King's Cross and Marble Arch
- Change onto route 10 between King's Cross and Marble Arch to Hammersmith
- At Hammersmith change onto 33 to Richmond
- Finally, at Richmond take H22 to Hounslow
Whereas in the late 1950s/early 1960s I could take one bus all the way. The 37 would become more unreliable if extended as you've then got running along good sized chunk of the South Circular. I'm sure everyone east of Brixton would be mightily unhappy with their bus service becoming unreliable particularly the lone sections between Herne Hill & North Dulwich & between North Dulwich & East Dulwich. IMO, all the 37 needs is a higher frequency & along with the 35, extra capacity between Clapham Junction & Clapham Common in the form of an extended 49 or 417. I think you'll find that the route with the longest history, apart from one way systems on it's route is the 24. Check on any prewar bus map and it's line of route is virtually the same. Some old routes beggar belief-as stated above the 37 & 73; the 96, pre 1950's bus strike was Putney to Redbrige, the 65 was Ealing Broadway to Leatherhead, at one time was recognised as Londons longest bus route. There may have been less traffic, but who'd do it with no PAS and a crash gearbox?  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 13:02:41 GMT
Ian Armstrong's www.londonbuses.co.uk website is a very good source for the history of London's routes, and some of the photo pages at www.londonbusroutes.net give a brief history of routes as well. I think 25 from Oxford Circus to Ilford would be my guess Some of the STL-era routes were ridiculously long e.g. the 6 ran from Willesden to Leyton! The 37 now runs in three almost overlapping sections: Peckham to Putney, Clapham Junction to Richmond and Richmond to Hounslow. I think that they should extend the 37 to Richmond, or at least create an N37 route to Richmond. I think routes should be long. Now I know most people will try mock me, but the 73 once ran from Stoke Newington to Hounslow. Now for me to do the same journey today, I would have to: - Start at Stoke Newington and take the 73 down to any point between King's Cross and Marble Arch
- Change onto route 10 between King's Cross and Marble Arch to Hammersmith
- At Hammersmith change onto 33 to Richmond
- Finally, at Richmond take H22 to Hounslow
Whereas in the late 1950s/early 1960s I could take one bus all the way. The 37 would become more unreliable if extended as you've then got running along good sized chunk of the South Circular. I'm sure everyone east of Brixton would be mightily unhappy with their bus service becoming unreliable particularly the lone sections between Herne Hill & North Dulwich & between North Dulwich & East Dulwich. IMO, all the 37 needs is a higher frequency & along with the 35, extra capacity between Clapham Junction & Clapham Common in the form of an extended 49 or 417. Also raises the question of whether there's actually any demand to go from Peckham or Brixton to Hounslow. Long trunk routes are useless if they're not going between two destinations that you could conceivably ride a significant distance on - the 25, 53, 113 and 208 serve as examples as those sorts of routes. |
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Post by Hassaan on Jul 19, 2013 13:04:30 GMT
Going by what 'jammy' was saying, the 35's Clapham Common to Shoreditch section has been the same (apart from minor alterations such as buses towards Shoreditch not using the Stockwell Road one way system) since 1940 - the route back then started at Clapham Common Old Town and finished at Chingford Hatch - overlapping sections wern't introduced until 1964. The 250 could be one with the fewest changes - been running since 1988 and the only changes to its route is the stand in Croydon - started out as Katherine Street before moving to Park Street & then Fairfield Halls, the road changes in Croydon caused by the introduction of Tramlink, the turning of North End into a pedestrian zone & the introduction of two way traffic on the section of Brixton Hill outside the Town Hall. The H32 has had no change to routing as far as I'm aware since introduction in 1993, before that it ran as the 232 which also had the section of today's 120 between Southall and Northolt (Greenford, Civil Engineer off Ruislip Road at first) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 14:15:07 GMT
Going by what 'jammy' was saying, the 35's Clapham Common to Shoreditch section has been the same (apart from minor alterations such as buses towards Shoreditch not using the Stockwell Road one way system) since 1940 - the route back then started at Clapham Common Old Town and finished at Chingford Hatch - overlapping sections wern't introduced until 1964. The 250 could be one with the fewest changes - been running since 1988 and the only changes to its route is the stand in Croydon - started out as Katherine Street before moving to Park Street & then Fairfield Halls, the road changes in Croydon caused by the introduction of Tramlink, the turning of North End into a pedestrian zone & the introduction of two way traffic on the section of Brixton Hill outside the Town Hall. This site claims 1949 for the start of the 35 although the 24 now seems to be the oldest unchanged route www.londonbuses.co.uk/routes/035.htmlHowever, the site makes no mention of the 117 ever proceeding past Egham, but I have definitely seen a picture of a 117 in Windsor (pre-RT days) |
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Post by John tuthill on Jul 19, 2013 15:02:38 GMT
Going by what 'jammy' was saying, the 35's Clapham Common to Shoreditch section has been the same (apart from minor alterations such as buses towards Shoreditch not using the Stockwell Road one way system) since 1940 - the route back then started at Clapham Common Old Town and finished at Chingford Hatch - overlapping sections wern't introduced until 1964. The 250 could be one with the fewest changes - been running since 1988 and the only changes to its route is the stand in Croydon - started out as Katherine Street before moving to Park Street & then Fairfield Halls, the road changes in Croydon caused by the introduction of Tramlink, the turning of North End into a pedestrian zone & the introduction of two way traffic on the section of Brixton Hill outside the Town Hall. This site claims 1949 for the start of the 35 although the 24 now seems to be the oldest unchanged route www.londonbuses.co.uk/routes/035.htmlHowever, the site makes no mention of the 117 ever proceeding past Egham, but I have definitely seen a picture of a 117 in Windsor (pre-RT days) Checkout "London Bus route 117" on Wikipedia, there's a mention of it going to Windsor  |
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Post by vjaska on Jul 19, 2013 15:15:05 GMT
Going by what 'jammy' was saying, the 35's Clapham Common to Shoreditch section has been the same (apart from minor alterations such as buses towards Shoreditch not using the Stockwell Road one way system) since 1940 - the route back then started at Clapham Common Old Town and finished at Chingford Hatch - overlapping sections wern't introduced until 1964. The 250 could be one with the fewest changes - been running since 1988 and the only changes to its route is the stand in Croydon - started out as Katherine Street before moving to Park Street & then Fairfield Halls, the road changes in Croydon caused by the introduction of Tramlink, the turning of North End into a pedestrian zone & the introduction of two way traffic on the section of Brixton Hill outside the Town Hall. This site claims 1949 for the start of the 35 although the 24 now seems to be the oldest unchanged route www.londonbuses.co.uk/routes/035.htmlHowever, the site makes no mention of the 117 ever proceeding past Egham, but I have definitely seen a picture of a 117 in Windsor (pre-RT days) Oops my mistake, thanks for the correction. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 19, 2013 16:06:11 GMT
I believe the 99 started running in 1916 between Woolwich and Erith and was briefly extended from Erith to Slade Green in the 80's before reverting to Woolwich to Erith until 2009 when it was extended to Bexleyheath.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 16:41:26 GMT
Thank you southlondonbus. Sadly the site I have been led to starts at 1950. Do you know a site that goes further back?
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