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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 3:45:40 GMT
Well I stumbled upon an article that TFL paid £200k to have promotion of NBFL's for two routes which are 24 and 11. Could have better off re using the existing material they got which would be cheap for them. cityhalllabour.org/boris-wastes-200k-promoting-himself-and-101-year-old-bus-route/I was thinking how will TFL benefit from that? Well and the PPP thing, How well do TFL pay operators in route tendering contracts to do the route for 4 years? Like some routes in London which still use the old buses but it will end up costing the operator more to refurbishing them. But yet operators have to pay for new buses, staffing, training, parts for the bus, maintenance...etc. But its a complicated issue for me to say. And yes the London Underground talk... Since Metronet and Tubelines got bankrupt and it ends returning to the hands of TFL. So does it mean that London Underground is earning themselves money by having TFL to control the existing Tubelines network? Then to the bendy bus talk... Since Ken Livingstone phased out the Routemaster from full routes and replaced them with low floor buses. With the bendy buses do the operators buy the bendy bus or is it TFL that brought it for them? But then the media twisted it and become biased towards the bendy buses calling them "chariots of fire". And purposely promoted it as a free bus because of the open boarding feature they offer. But since Boris got in for his first term as mayor. TFL removed the bendy buses from full service which cost TFL £60 million. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7673537.stmlastly with the NBFL. it cost around £11 million for 8 prototypes also for the research and developing of the new bus. Plus the roll out of the 600 NBFL's which cost around £180 million. I would imagine if it hit the billion pounds mark and then the noises will end up being raised about it... The question is, is TFL been wasting millions on stuff which is not needed but can be used to keep the fares low and to have upgrades around the TFL network system. Sorry if i have stuff which are complicated in there. but i hope you understand what im saying.  |
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Post by slr on Aug 22, 2013 6:30:26 GMT
Well I stumbled upon an article that TFL paid £200k to have promotion of NBFL's for two routes which are 24 and 11. Could have better off re using the existing material they got which would be cheap for them. cityhalllabour.org/boris-wastes-200k-promoting-himself-and-101-year-old-bus-route/I was thinking how will TFL benefit from that? Well and the PPP thing, PPP only related to the Underground, buses are a more devolved setup as far as the equipment and assets used to run a route.How well do TFL pay operators in route tendering contracts to do the route for 4 years? Like some routes in London which still use the old buses but it will end up costing the operator more to refurbishing them. But yet operators have to pay for new buses, staffing, training, parts for the bus, maintenance...etc. But its a complicated issue for me to say. When an operator bids for a route, the bid includes everything you have mentioned, including vehicles, staff, refurb costs, expected fuel cost rises. The operator will work out the best price they can do it for then add on a profit margin on top. Therefore the final price TfL pay includes everything. This is paid to the operators in installments, and deductions are made or bonuses paid to operators for service quality.And yes the London Underground talk... Since Metronet and Tubelines got bankrupt and it ends returning to the hands of TFL. So does it mean that London Underground is earning themselves money by having TFL to control the existing Tubelines network? Metronet was brought within LUL when it went bust, and Tube Lines didn't go bust but I believe due to perceived shortfalls in the contract TfL took it in house anyway, but it has until now existed as a stand alone company, albeit in public ownership. Only within the last week has the announcement made that a lot of Tube Lines functions and staff are to be TUPEd into LUL/TfL. I doubt TfL make much of a profit from it due to extra procurement costs and HR costs encountered by TfL. Although to keep costs down direct employees of LUL/TfL are part of a seperate internal unit within LUL that will compete with private sector contractors for specific jobs to a certain extent.Then to the bendy bus talk... Since Ken Livingstone phased out the Routemaster from full routes and replaced them with low floor buses. With the bendy buses do the operators buy the bendy bus or is it TFL that brought it for them? But then the media twisted it and become biased towards the bendy buses calling them "chariots of fire". And purposely promoted it as a free bus because of the open boarding feature they offer. But since Boris got in for his first term as mayor. TFL removed the bendy buses from full service which cost TFL £60 million. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7673537.stmAs above, TfL specify what they want, and the operator will submit a compliant bid with TfL paying for everything and then some for profit. I don't know about all the bendies but certainly Go-Ahead's were leased by Go-Ahead and not TfL. The operators take minimal risk on vehicles and no risk on fares.lastly with the NBFL. it cost around £11 million for 8 prototypes also for the research and developing of the new bus. Plus the roll out of the 600 NBFL's which cost around £180 million. I would imagine if it hit the billion pounds mark and then the noises will end up being raised about it... The question is, is TFL been wasting millions on stuff which is not needed but can be used to keep the fares low and to have upgrades around the TFL network system. Probably, but such is politics.Sorry if i have stuff which are complicated in there. but i hope you understand what im saying. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 8:08:08 GMT
Your post comes across as if you've jumbled lots of angry newspaper headlines together in a Daily Mail-esque fashion. I'm not really sure where you wanted this to go?
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Post by snoggle on Aug 22, 2013 11:42:27 GMT
You have jumbled up a load of different issues in an attempt to find some sort of financial chaos.
You need to understand that all of the things you refer to are linked directly to politics. PPP was the government's policy which it forced LU to adopt as a way of bringing in investment. I worked very extensively on PPP so am perhaps biased. Trying to be as objective as possible there were issues with LU and the Infracos. Some things worked well but cost a lot of money and other things were dreadful. Sometimes LU worked well with Infraco people and other times it was not good at all. However that can happen in any contracted situation - people are what make these things work. There are definitely things that the private sector do far, far more efficiently than the public sector and they will invest in things to reduce costs and raise efficiency *provided* their profits also improve but hey that's capitalism for you. There are bits of LU that could be much more efficient which is why Tube Lines was kept separate and had some private sector management help even when Boris brought Tube Lines back "in house" when the revised contract for the second review period could not be agreed for an affordable price. The government paid £2bn to TfL to cover the costs for the collapse of Metronet so TfL did not waste the money it was the government. The government had no option though - PPP was its policy and to lumber London with a £2bn bill would have caused severe problems for TfL and that was not politically acceptable. The Mayor would also have made huge political capital by blaming the government for any cut that TfL would have had to make if the £2bn had not been paid. The Labour Party could not afford to have Ken doing that.
The rest of your questions all relate to how the Mayoralty works. The Mayor sets out what he wants. TfL have to do the transport bits and do it as professionally as possible. There is huge debate about what Ken Livingstone did or did not say about bus policy. You seem to believe the line that he personally demanded the destruction of the Routemasters and demanded that bendy buses be introduced. I don't buy that myself. Ken's bus policy was to expand services and frequencies to cope with the growth that already existed plus whatever the congestion charge created. He also favoured making buses relatively cheaper than the tube to shift some people away from the tube because it was not possible to suddenly expand services.
The NB4L is a Boris creation but assisted by some dubious right wing thinking from Policy Exchange. Clearly TfL ran the process of specifying the bus and I doubt Boris cares very much about it provided it has the open platform which was in his manifesto. Boris also demanded the removal of the bendy buses - also in his manifesto. We could debate for years what is right or wrong with these policies but here is not the place. We can hardly be surprised that TfL is spending money to advertise the delivery of a Mayoral policy - this will always happen. It did under Ken and has under Boris. You can hardly expect them to say nothing about what the Mayor has asked them to do. There is always money put aside for this sort of promotion. Whether it is value for money is for each person to judge.
The real issue here is whether we think the politicians come up with sensible ideas that we want to see money spent on. We usually get what the majority vote for. If you don't like it then vote for an alternative. If you don't like any of the policies then create your own party!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 18:11:00 GMT
The story regarding the Routemaster and its conductors is a rather long one. Not long before it was decided to dispense with the RM's, in 2000 TfL bought back 24 Routemasters as the thinking of the time was that having a crew of two running buses through the west end was a desirable thing which would speed up journey times (an attractive alternative to the car when congestion charging was introduced). Route 55 was trialed as a two crew route 2001-3 with conventional buses. Around this time the tide within TfL seemed to have completely turned back to OPO (presumably when it was realised the lack of low floor would be an issue) and thus the rest was history, but it is interesting how things have come back full circle.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 22, 2013 19:14:19 GMT
The story regarding the Routemaster and its conductors is a rather long one. Not long before it was decided to dispense with the RM's, in 2000 TfL bought back 24 Routemasters as the thinking of the time was that having a crew of two running buses through the west end was a desirable thing which would speed up journey times (an attractive alternative to the car when congestion charging was introduced). Route 55 was trialed as a two crew route 2001-3 with conventional buses. Around this time the tide within TfL seemed to have completely turned back to OPO (presumably when it was realised the lack of low floor would be an issue) and thus the rest was history, but it is interesting how things have come back full circle. I remember reading about the crew operation trial on the 55's Tridents - one thing though, why did they feel the need to do a trial when the 159 had OPO buses running from time to time into Central London with crew operation. |
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 22, 2013 21:46:21 GMT
I think BoJo just wants to leave his mark on things during his tenure of Mayor - some things have been good, the Boris Bikes, and the NBFL does look cool (even if it was initially a greenhouse on wheels :  though with some things he ,may have bitten off more than he can chew, such as the Emirates Dangleway and taking over a chunk of Greater Anglia routes (Chingford, Cheshunt & Enfield)... will he still expect GA to maintain the 315's (now in LUL colours) at Ilford Depot or has he got a plan in place? Lets see him try make stations like Rectory Road or St James Street look attractive  to me this is more like a cat marking his territory... some things its like TfL are going round in circles, such as tackling fare evasion on Bendies by removing the buses and replacing with conventional deckers... only 2 years down the line, re-introduce it with the NB4L where again it's down to conscience if you tap in with your Oyster... |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 22, 2013 22:11:21 GMT
I think BoJo just wants to leave his mark on things during his tenure of Mayor - some things have been good, the Boris Bikes, and the NBFL does look cool (even if it was initially a greenhouse on wheels : though with some things he ,may have bitten off more than he can chew, such as the Emirates Dangleway and taking over a chunk of Greater Anglia routes (Chingford, Cheshunt & Enfield)... will he still expect GA to maintain the 315's (now in LUL colours) at Ilford Depot or has he got a plan in place? Lets see him try make stations like Rectory Road or St James Street look attractive to me this is more like a cat marking his territory... some things its like TfL are going round in circles, such as tackling fare evasion on Bendies by removing the buses and replacing with conventional deckers... only 2 years down the line, re-introduce it with the NB4L where again it's down to conscience if you tap in with your Oyster... All politicians want to leave a mark but actually Boris has such a profile he really doesn't need to. He can just be himself and that's actually enough given all the adoration he gets. Look at the comments when he does one of his Twitter sessions as Mayor! He won't be forgotten even if he achieves very little. I think it is way too early to condemn the Mayor or TfL over the West Anglia devolution given no detail has emerged and the practicalities are still being debated (according to the last set of Mayor's Answers). I think it is perfectly possible to make the stations presentable - consider the disgusting state the old Silverlink Metro stations were in and look at them now. They look presentable, looked after and have plenty of people using them. I don't expect St James St to become palatial but I'd expect they can make it look decent. No decisions have been taken about the rolling stock. The bus fraud thing with bendies and NB4Ls boils down to the same issue. It is all about a bus that has low dwell times. TfL are perfectly happy to "trade off" some fraud exposure against low dwell times which offer the potential (careful words here) for better operational performance. TfL were happy to buy "off the peg" multi door buses. Boris declared he didn't want them but did want an open platform. Therefore TfL have cross bred the bendy bus with a double deck, removed the bendy genes and created the NB4L. The NB4L is designed to have longevity beyond a policy change because you can still run it with three doors even with the conductor and open platform banished to the history books. Ergo they still have their open boarding, multi door bus - it's what they wanted all along and will live with the NB4L given the bendy bus was banished. Even if we had a change of Mayor to one who was happy to have bendies back I doubt they would return because the price from the operators / lessors would be so high (given memories of what happened 2 years ago) as to be unaffordable. Once bitten, twice shy. The only way round it would be for TfL to buy the artics and then lease them to the operators. TfL would then take on the purchase cost / residual value risk. |
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 24, 2013 7:17:43 GMT
I think BoJo just wants to leave his mark on things during his tenure of Mayor - some things have been good, the Boris Bikes, and the NBFL does look cool (even if it was initially a greenhouse on wheels : though with some things he ,may have bitten off more than he can chew, such as the Emirates Dangleway and taking over a chunk of Greater Anglia routes (Chingford, Cheshunt & Enfield)... will he still expect GA to maintain the 315's (now in LUL colours) at Ilford Depot or has he got a plan in place? Lets see him try make stations like Rectory Road or St James Street look attractive to me this is more like a cat marking his territory... some things its like TfL are going round in circles, such as tackling fare evasion on Bendies by removing the buses and replacing with conventional deckers... only 2 years down the line, re-introduce it with the NB4L where again it's down to conscience if you tap in with your Oyster... All politicians want to leave a mark but actually Boris has such a profile he really doesn't need to. He can just be himself and that's actually enough given all the adoration he gets. Look at the comments when he does one of his Twitter sessions as Mayor! He won't be forgotten even if he achieves very little. I think it is way too early to condemn the Mayor or TfL over the West Anglia devolution given no detail has emerged and the practicalities are still being debated (according to the last set of Mayor's Answers). I think it is perfectly possible to make the stations presentable - consider the disgusting state the old Silverlink Metro stations were in and look at them now. They look presentable, looked after and have plenty of people using them. I don't expect St James St to become palatial but I'd expect they can make it look decent. No decisions have been taken about the rolling stock. The bus fraud thing with bendies and NB4Ls boils down to the same issue. It is all about a bus that has low dwell times. TfL are perfectly happy to "trade off" some fraud exposure against low dwell times which offer the potential (careful words here) for better operational performance. TfL were happy to buy "off the peg" multi door buses. Boris declared he didn't want them but did want an open platform. Therefore TfL have cross bred the bendy bus with a double deck, removed the bendy genes and created the NB4L. The NB4L is designed to have longevity beyond a policy change because you can still run it with three doors even with the conductor and open platform banished to the history books. Ergo they still have their open boarding, multi door bus - it's what they wanted all along and will live with the NB4L given the bendy bus was banished. Even if we had a change of Mayor to one who was happy to have bendies back I doubt they would return because the price from the operators / lessors would be so high (given memories of what happened 2 years ago) as to be unaffordable. Once bitten, twice shy. The only way round it would be for TfL to buy the artics and then lease them to the operators. TfL would then take on the purchase cost / residual value risk. TfL must be prepared to spend like a teenage Arab then, those class 317's and 315's couldn't be replaced soon enough. At least that could be more work for Bombardier if that gets signed off. Then there's the issue of the 1950's overhead wiring which often breaks so they will be at the mercy of Network Rail until it is fixed. I was impressed by what they did with the North London Line, it was dreadful under Silverlink. True, Boris' personality preceeds him, which is probably why he could get away with so many of his ideas being put into practice. He could sell ice to Eskimo's, lol. Someone else who isn't as flamboyant would not have done as well. Oh well, at least he hasn't inherited Maryland station into the mix. That's got to be the most depressing station ever I guess Crossrail will bulldoze take care of that place in due time, I imagine |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 24, 2013 8:21:59 GMT
TfL must be prepared to spend like a teenage Arab then, those class 317's and 315's couldn't be replaced soon enough. At least that could be more work for Bombardier if that gets signed off. Then there's the issue of the 1950's overhead wiring which often breaks so they will be at the mercy of Network Rail until it is fixed. I was impressed by what they did with the North London Line, it was dreadful under Silverlink. True, Boris' personality preceeds him, which is probably why he could get away with so many of his ideas being put into practice. He could sell ice to Eskimo's, lol. Someone else who isn't as flamboyant would not have done as well. Oh well, at least he hasn't inherited Maryland station into the mix. That's got to be the most depressing station ever I guess Crossrail will bulldoze take care of that place in due time, I imagine In a recent Mayor's Answer it was stated that a decision on rolling stock hasn't been taken yet as it's not clear how much budget TfL will get transferred from the DfT (instead of the money going to Greater Anglia). There might be new trains or it might the existing stuff refurbished. I think Network Rail have further work scheduled for Control Period 5 to deal with the wires but I agree with you that it is a major issue - especially up around Cheshunt / Broxbourne which seems to break whenever there is a puff of wind or a bit of warmth. Maryland Station will transfer to the new Crossrail operator that starts in 2015. They take over the Shenfield local service then. Unfortunately many of the Great Eastern stations are not going to have a lot done to them for Crossrail - this was one of the cuts imposed to get Crossrail finally approved. Many London Assembly members are furious about this because they argue all Crossrail stations should provide common features like better accessibility. For example I think Ilford and Romford were supposed to be made step free but won't be. Maryland might get a "wash and brush up" even though it really needs a full and thorough refurbishment with new facilities. We shall see what happens. |
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 28, 2013 15:33:39 GMT
TfL must be prepared to spend like a teenage Arab then, those class 317's and 315's couldn't be replaced soon enough. At least that could be more work for Bombardier if that gets signed off. Then there's the issue of the 1950's overhead wiring which often breaks so they will be at the mercy of Network Rail until it is fixed. I was impressed by what they did with the North London Line, it was dreadful under Silverlink. True, Boris' personality preceeds him, which is probably why he could get away with so many of his ideas being put into practice. He could sell ice to Eskimo's, lol. Someone else who isn't as flamboyant would not have done as well. Oh well, at least he hasn't inherited Maryland station into the mix. That's got to be the most depressing station ever I guess Crossrail will bulldoze take care of that place in due time, I imagine In a recent Mayor's Answer it was stated that a decision on rolling stock hasn't been taken yet as it's not clear how much budget TfL will get transferred from the DfT (instead of the money going to Greater Anglia). There might be new trains or it might the existing stuff refurbished. I think Network Rail have further work scheduled for Control Period 5 to deal with the wires but I agree with you that it is a major issue - especially up around Cheshunt / Broxbourne which seems to break whenever there is a puff of wind or a bit of warmth. Maryland Station will transfer to the new Crossrail operator that starts in 2015. They take over the Shenfield local service then. Unfortunately many of the Great Eastern stations are not going to have a lot done to them for Crossrail - this was one of the cuts imposed to get Crossrail finally approved. Many London Assembly members are furious about this because they argue all Crossrail stations should provide common features like better accessibility. For example I think Ilford and Romford were supposed to be made step free but won't be. Maryland might get a "wash and brush up" even though it really needs a full and thorough refurbishment with new facilities. We shall see what happens. Maryland needs better lighting and needs to be manned. Am skeptical of the "wash and brush up" it will get, if at all. Time will tell once these changes are in place... Sent from my GT-I8190N using proboards |
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though with some things he ,may have bitten off more than he can chew, such as the Emirates Dangleway and taking over a chunk of Greater Anglia routes (Chingford, Cheshunt & Enfield)... will he still expect GA to maintain the 315's (now in LUL colours) at Ilford Depot or has he got a plan in place? Lets see him try make stations like Rectory Road or St James Street look attractive 
to me this is more like a cat marking his territory... some things its like TfL are going round in circles, such as tackling fare evasion on Bendies by removing the buses and replacing with conventional deckers... only 2 years down the line, re-introduce it with the NB4L where again it's down to conscience if you tap in with your Oyster...