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Post by M1104 on Oct 19, 2013 13:19:22 GMT
It is already a 24 hour route, how would removing the N suffix at night improve things? Sorry but this has to be the most ridiculous idea I've ever heard Route 19 is not 24 Hour. The 19 & N19 are two separately numbered routes even if the 19 & N19 both start at Finsbury Park Station and follow each other until Battersea Bridge, South Side then the N19 goes a bit further down the road to Clapham Junction. Route 65 is a route classed as 24 Hour even without the N Prefix. The route is extended beyond Kingston via the 71 nightly. Why isn't the night element of the 65 classed as an N65, seeing as it's got a different westbound destination?
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Post by sw11simon on Oct 21, 2013 2:07:07 GMT
Route 19 is not 24 Hour. The 19 & N19 are two separately numbered routes even if the 19 & N19 both start at Finsbury Park Station and follow each other until Battersea Bridge, South Side then the N19 goes a bit further down the road to Clapham Junction. Route 65 is a route classed as 24 Hour even without the N Prefix. The route is extended beyond Kingston via the 71 nightly. Why isn't the night element of the 65 classed as an N65, seeing as it's got a different westbound destination? I think the desire that all scheduled journeys on the same route being to the same destinations at all times has loosened up a little bit. Policy appears to have started to allow the likes of "extended between 01.00 and 05.00 to Chessington." This saves some money, such as no need to print separate blinds, bus stop numbers and timetables, so in my mind is a sensible move. The 65 is a good route to "trial" the policy as I imagine most passengers are locals who will know the network. I'm trying to remember if the 38 is another example of where this policy has been loosened, with timetabled journeys starting and finishing at Hackney Central. It's not really in my local area, but did this happen with bendy buses? I know it is a slightly different example to the 65 but there were many examples of buses starting to points near to the garage, as opposed to the terminus. From SW, for instance, many journeys from the garage on route 87 (77A) used to start at Wandsworth Road/ Lansdowne Way in the morning peak. Policy turned this around so all buses had to start at finish at terminus points and now all buses run out of service to and from Aldwych/ Wandsworth. If TfL started looking at more routes in this way, there could be lots of small savings that will add up. For instance, route 60/N68 have huge light running overlaps at the Old Coulsden end. There is probably savings to be had if early/late N68 journeys start/finish at Camberwell and 60 journeys at South Croydon Garage, albeit probably breaking a handful of journeys.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2013 9:36:48 GMT
There is no consistent policy.
The night 65 should logically be the N65 although in practice I don't suppose most users would even notice whether it had an N prefix or not.
As for short workings, well they happen all the time on many routes anyway.
Buses on the 60 or N68 running dead to/from Old Coulsdon can go via Stoats Nest Road thus saving time, there's not much point running them in service just for the sake of it if very few people ever use them.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 21, 2013 10:32:39 GMT
Certain dead runs could also be used such as the 133's dead run via Streatham Common but say during school & peak hours only - certainly would help out the 249 & 417 during those periods.
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Post by M1104 on Oct 21, 2013 10:47:17 GMT
Certain dead runs could also be used such as the 133's dead run via Streatham Common but say during school & peak hours only - certainly would help out the 249 & 417 during those periods. The same could be done with the 270 between Merton Garage and Mitcham via Western Road. The only disadvantages to general garage journeys however is if the route is won by another operator, especially if the garage journey proves to be rather popular.
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Post by 6HP502C on Oct 21, 2013 20:32:07 GMT
As the southern terminus of the N19 is just a few minutes further on from the terminus of the 19, why has nobody thought of extending the 19 those few extra stops to Clapham Junction to allow the conversion of the 19 to a 24-hour service Hi, There does need to be a valid business case behind any change to a route that will affect a route's Peak Vehicle Requirement (PVR) as each extra vehicle does cost a significant amount of public funds to put on the road. No night route would be simplified solely for the purpose of removing the N prefix - an in depth analysis of the benefits and costs of any structural change to the route would be assessed. None simply for simplicity's sake. In the case of the 10, 52 and 159 becoming 24 hour routes, to quote a few recent examples, comprehensive reviews would have taken place, incorporating factors other than the mere simplifying of the network. A compelling case may be if the existing high frequency routes 49, 170, 319 and 345 combined cannot meet passenger demand between Battersea Bridge and Clapham Junction. Certainly if you contacted TfL at www.tfl.gov.uk/helpandcontact , it would be investigated and reviewed.
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Post by sw11simon on Oct 21, 2013 21:42:58 GMT
There is no consistent policy. The night 65 should logically be the N65 although in practice I don't suppose most users would even notice whether it had an N prefix or not. As for short workings, well they happen all the time on many routes anyway. Buses on the 60 or N68 running dead to/from Old Coulsdon can go via Stoats Nest Road thus saving time, there's not much point running them in service just for the sake of it if very few people ever use them. You missed my point - N68's are running light to Old Coulsdon at night before/ during 60's run in light. In the morning 60's run light to Old Coulsdon while N68's run back light. Livening up the N68's and creating garage starters on the 60 should create some overall saving - duplicated across other parts of the network it could be a significant saving.
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Post by M1104 on Oct 21, 2013 22:15:57 GMT
There is no consistent policy. The night 65 should logically be the N65 although in practice I don't suppose most users would even notice whether it had an N prefix or not. As for short workings, well they happen all the time on many routes anyway. Buses on the 60 or N68 running dead to/from Old Coulsdon can go via Stoats Nest Road thus saving time, there's not much point running them in service just for the sake of it if very few people ever use them. You missed my point - N68's are running light to Old Coulsdon at night before/ during 60's run in light. In the morning 60's run light to Old Coulsdon while N68's run back light. Livening up the N68's and creating garage starters on the 60 should create some overall saving - duplicated across other parts of the network it could be a significant saving. Incidentally, do the N68s run light to Coulsdon straight from Q or after it's done a 468 journey to Swan and Sugar Loaf? (the latter being a lot less in dead runs). Same query in reverse in the mornings. I will never forget one duty at SW where around 1/3 of the driving was light running: * light run SW to Clapham Common, then 88 service to Camden Town * light run Camden Town to Wembley Central, then N11 service to Liverpool Street * Light run Liverpool Street to SW# * MEAL RELIEF * light run SW to Aldwych, then N44 service to Sutton * light run Sutton to SW, duty ends # - in practice I ran light from Liverpool Street to Aldwych as it's the same bus/running number throughout...also less overall dead run mileage I can imagine that duty not lasting long between timetable changes, but it was the best duty I ever did....as long as you have a budgie key for the blinds
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Post by sw11simon on Oct 22, 2013 7:52:18 GMT
You missed my point - N68's are running light to Old Coulsdon at night before/ during 60's run in light. In the morning 60's run light to Old Coulsdon while N68's run back light. Livening up the N68's and creating garage starters on the 60 should create some overall saving - duplicated across other parts of the network it could be a significant saving. Incidentally, do the N68s run light to Coulsdon straight from Q or after it's done a 468 journey to Swan and Sugar Loaf? (the latter being a lot less in dead runs). Same query in reverse in the mornings. I will never forget one duty at SW where around 1/3 of the driving was light running: * light run SW to Clapham Common, then 88 service to Camden Town * light run Camden Town to Wembley Central, then N11 service to Liverpool Street * Light run Liverpool Street to SW# * MEAL RELIEF * light run SW to Aldwych, then N44 service to Sutton * light run Sutton to SW, duty ends # - in practice I ran light from Liverpool Street to Aldwych as it's the same bus/running number throughout...also less overall dead run mileage I can imagine that duty not lasting long between timetable changes, but it was the best duty I ever did....as long as you have a budgie key for the blinds There are 6 buses on the route - in the evening two run from South Croydon ex 468, three run light from Camberwell to Old Coulsdon, one to TCR. In the morning, 5 buses run in light from OLd Coulsdon, 1 from TCR. There are also a handful of on-road driver changeovers overnight on the route. Interestingly, route 12 continues overnight with buses that have been working all day via driver changeovers on the road... I think it is the only night route in Go-Ahead London that does that although it may have changed.
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Post by M1104 on Oct 22, 2013 8:11:53 GMT
There are 6 buses on the route - in the evening two run from South Croydon ex 468, three run light from Camberwell to Old Coulsdon, one to TCR. In the morning, 5 buses run in light from OLd Coulsdon, 1 from TCR. There are also a handful of on-road driver changeovers overnight on the route. Interestingly, route 12 continues overnight with buses that have been working all day via driver changeovers on the road... I think it is the only night route in Go-Ahead London that does that although it may have changed. I am surprised buses from the day 12 are still used at night without refuelling, especially being the B9TLs. On the other hand, the 12 is literally half the route it was when Q was sharing it with PM.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 12:11:40 GMT
There is no consistent policy. The night 65 should logically be the N65 although in practice I don't suppose most users would even notice whether it had an N prefix or not. As for short workings, well they happen all the time on many routes anyway. Buses on the 60 or N68 running dead to/from Old Coulsdon can go via Stoats Nest Road thus saving time, there's not much point running them in service just for the sake of it if very few people ever use them. You missed my point - N68's are running light to Old Coulsdon at night before/ during 60's run in light. In the morning 60's run light to Old Coulsdon while N68's run back light. Livening up the N68's and creating garage starters on the 60 should create some overall saving - duplicated across other parts of the network it could be a significant saving. Yes, sorry I see what you mean now. It would surely make more sense for the N68's to run in service at least as far as Croydon town centre and the 60 journies start from South Croydon Garage? In fact instead of N68's running dead back to Q couldn't they be linked with the morning X68, the buses for which presumably run light from Q to West Croydon? A bit of tinkering could probably save vast amounts of money throughout the newtwork.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 12:15:38 GMT
You missed my point - N68's are running light to Old Coulsdon at night before/ during 60's run in light. In the morning 60's run light to Old Coulsdon while N68's run back light. Livening up the N68's and creating garage starters on the 60 should create some overall saving - duplicated across other parts of the network it could be a significant saving. Incidentally, do the N68s run light to Coulsdon straight from Q or after it's done a 468 journey to Swan and Sugar Loaf? (the latter being a lot less in dead runs). Same query in reverse in the mornings. I will never forget one duty at SW where around 1/3 of the driving was light running: * light run SW to Clapham Common, then 88 service to Camden Town * light run Camden Town to Wembley Central, then N11 service to Liverpool Street * Light run Liverpool Street to SW# * MEAL RELIEF * light run SW to Aldwych, then N44 service to Sutton * light run Sutton to SW, duty ends # - in practice I ran light from Liverpool Street to Aldwych as it's the same bus/running number throughout...also less overall dead run mileage I can imagine that duty not lasting long between timetable changes, but it was the best duty I ever did....as long as you have a budgie key for the blinds A nice little duty and a bit of variety too. I can see the sense in linking the 88 and the N11 but not the N11 and N44. Mind you I think there is currently some interworking between the current N11 and N87? I take it you just had a longer break at Aldwych rather than return to SW?
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Post by M1104 on Oct 22, 2013 15:12:36 GMT
A nice little duty and a bit of variety too. I can see the sense in linking the 88 and the N11 but not the N11 and N44. Mind you I think there is currently some interworking between the current N11 and N87? I take it you just had a longer break at Aldwych rather than return to SW? Indeed I did as most of us barely returned to the depot until shift's end.
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