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Post by paulsw2 on Nov 6, 2013 2:04:39 GMT
Reading through a lot of varied threads I have noticed that one particular point is continually repeated and that is capacity of operators garages. Most are rammed full with no additional space. A lot of the older members of this forum will remember garages that have closed (mostly for the redevelopment value i.e GM) but the garages that were around in LT days were built where they were for a reason. There was very little light running and garages served local areas. The problem now is there are too many buses operating from to few garages with too much light running which makes no economical or environmental sense.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2013 2:22:49 GMT
Totally agree. Many garages closed due to tendering . With property prices as they are, places like Putney, Stamford Brook, Shepherds Bush, all stand on land worth millions.
Garages at Park Royal, Twickenham, Rainham, Mandela Way will be the future.
Can't see a return to the days of local routes in local garages. It's as good as it gets I think
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Post by Mokujin on Nov 6, 2013 6:12:49 GMT
I'm sure there was thread made previously about this topic and it had a list of all the garage capacities..
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Post by jay38a on Nov 6, 2013 6:19:43 GMT
I think it's fair to say that garages in South East London have faired quite well with closures as the only ones I can think of closing is Sidcup and Arrivas Beddington depot, as BX, NX, PM, PD, TL, TB, Q, BC, TC, C, MB and WL are all still open, so in SE London things can still be run locally but it's all price related now.
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Post by M1104 on Nov 6, 2013 9:42:42 GMT
I think it's fair to say that garages in South East London have faired quite well with closures as the only ones I can think of closing is Sidcup and Arrivas Beddington depot, as BX, NX, PM, PD, TL, TB, Q, BC, TC, C, MB and WL are all still open, so in SE London things can still be run locally but it's all price related now. And N
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Post by westhamgeezer on Nov 6, 2013 10:08:28 GMT
One of the negative effects of tendering/privatisation I'm afraid.
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Post by DT 11 on Nov 6, 2013 10:32:17 GMT
Reading through a lot of varied threads I have noticed that one particular point is continually repeated and that is capacity of operators garages. Most are rammed full with no additional space. A lot of the older members of this forum will remember garages that have closed (mostly for the redevelopment value i.e GM) but the garages that were around in LT days were built where they were for a reason. There was very little light running and garages served local areas. The problem now is there are too many buses operating from to few garages with too much light running which makes no economical or environmental sense. I agree with you. Of course, part of what causes lots of light running is the tendering system, where the nearest garage isn't necessarily the cheapest to run it from and so while a route might drive straight past a garage, it's run from one 10 miles away. The 54 is a case in point for that! Of course, as the price of fuel goes up we might return to a situation where the nearest garage is best. Two routes I have in mind are the 178 & 380, a lot or most of the journeys on those routes begin / finish in Lewisham, seems much more logical and less cost effective to operate both of those routes from Catford Garage than Plumstead. The 354 could be either TL or TB the distance from Bromley North to both Garages is the same where most or not all 354s start and end.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 6, 2013 11:23:09 GMT
Reading through a lot of varied threads I have noticed that one particular point is continually repeated and that is capacity of operators garages. Most are rammed full with no additional space. A lot of the older members of this forum will remember garages that have closed (mostly for the redevelopment value i.e GM) but the garages that were around in LT days were built where they were for a reason. There was very little light running and garages served local areas. The problem now is there are too many buses operating from to few garages with too much light running which makes no economical or environmental sense. Surely a lot of LT garage locations are a mix of being inherited from the days of horse bus / early powered bus operation when the scale of development in London was much less than it is today and also when local garages were seen as a solution. There was also far less "NIMBYism" about having such facilities near where people lived. Obviously as London grew LT took a more strategic view about garages and, if I understand my history, there was a programme of new and rebuilt garages to try to improve operating performance and cater for new towns and development. The problem is that after the late 1950s the buses were seen as a declining part of the transport network and thus cost cutting was the ethos. Privatisation and tendering in the 80s and 90s merely accelerated that trend but at least the authors of London's sell off realised that garages were a vital strategic asset and prevented rapacious sell offs as had happened with NBC. I actually suspect we had more garages in the early 21st century, when there were still a fair number of competing companies each with their own garages, than back in the heyday of LT. The problem we are going to have is that the pressure to develop more housing will encroach upon industrial areas where some of the newer garages are. How long before Arriva are hounded out of their Lea Valley garages as the Meridian Water development gentrifies what is a bit of a wasteland? I know one garage is already going because of National Grid works. This sort of thing will start to impinge on all sorts of places - how long will it be before someone wants to grab QB from Abellio once the Power Station site is all full of rich Malaysians and Chinese? The pressure to build in that lower bit of Battersea will be huge. We now, of course, have a need for more and more buses but lack any viable plan to add garage space. Ironically the development pressure will force up demand for transport but reduce the scope for adding garage space to deliver the extra services. Where's the Mayoral / TfL strategy to deal with that problem? The failure to build the long proposed North Acton garage shows how hard it is to get new garages built. This is likely to mean more remote garages with more dead mileage. It would also be sensible to prevent any more garage closures or change of use for "mothballed" garages.
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Post by John tuthill on Nov 6, 2013 11:39:01 GMT
I think it's fair to say that garages in South East London have faired quite well with closures as the only ones I can think of closing is Sidcup and Arrivas Beddington depot, as BX, NX, PM, PD, TL, TB, Q, BC, TC, C, MB and WL are all still open, so in SE London things can still be run locally but it's all price related now. And N Closure are not new. One of the consequences of the bus strike in the late 50's was a cut back on routes, and therefore garages. Garages I can remember as a boy were CA, which later became a transport museum, closed, re-opened as "AK" and "N" when these garages were re-developed, now its a supermarket! RL, which due to it's proximity to PM was closed, and then PM itself reduced to a 'back street' open area. What wouldn't they love now if AK & CA were still around? I've written in the past, and it's since been reiterated by others, certain garages are worth millions for their locations, certain brown field sites are either unsuitable, or used for housing. As an aside, the A23 did and has the following garages you can drive pass: BN-AK-TH-TC, how many other main roads can copy that?
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Post by John tuthill on Nov 6, 2013 11:42:24 GMT
Closure are not new. One of the consequences of the bus strike in the late 50's was a cut back on routes, and therefore garages. Garages I can remember as a boy were CA, which later became a transport museum, closed, re-opened as "AK" and "N" when these garages were re-developed, now its a supermarket! RL, which due to it's proximity to PM was closed, and then PM itself reduced to a 'back street' open area. What wouldn't they love now if AK & CA were still around? I've written in the past, and it's since been reiterated by others, certain garages are worth millions for their locations, certain brown field sites are either unsuitable, or used for housing. As an aside, the A23 did and has the following garages you can drive pass: BN-AK-TH-TC, how many other main roads can copy that? I can answer my own question!(Should have known better) The A2 has and did have-Q-WL-RL-PM-NX!
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Post by M1104 on Nov 6, 2013 13:02:24 GMT
Closure are not new. One of the consequences of the bus strike in the late 50's was a cut back on routes, and therefore garages. Garages I can remember as a boy were CA, which later became a transport museum, closed, re-opened as "AK" and "N" when these garages were re-developed, now its a supermarket! RL, which due to it's proximity to PM was closed, and then PM itself reduced to a 'back street' open area. What wouldn't they love now if AK & CA were still around? I've written in the past, and it's since been reiterated by others, certain garages are worth millions for their locations, certain brown field sites are either unsuitable, or used for housing. WL almost got the bullit about ten years back when that was to be demolished for a Sainsburys. I believe Major Ken waved his hands at the eleventh hour to stop the sale.
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Post by paulsw2 on Nov 6, 2013 13:25:37 GMT
I think it's fair to say that garages in South East London have faired quite well with closures as the only ones I can think of closing is Sidcup and Arrivas Beddington depot, as BX, NX, PM, PD, TL, TB, Q, BC, TC, C, MB and WL are all still open, so in SE London things can still be run locally but it's all price related now. PM downgraded ED built on
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Post by Ted Barclay on Nov 6, 2013 14:27:42 GMT
Closure are not new. One of the consequences of the bus strike in the late 50's was a cut back on routes, and therefore garages. Garages I can remember as a boy were CA, which later became a transport museum, closed, re-opened as "AK" and "N" when these garages were re-developed, now its a supermarket! RL, which due to it's proximity to PM was closed, and then PM itself reduced to a 'back street' open area. What wouldn't they love now if AK & CA were still around? I've written in the past, and it's since been reiterated by others, certain garages are worth millions for their locations, certain brown field sites are either unsuitable, or used for housing. As an aside, the A23 did and has the following garages you can drive pass: BN-AK-TH-TC, how many other main roads can copy that? I can answer my own question!(Should have known better) The A2 has and did have-Q-WL-RL-PM-NX! The A2 goes up the Old Kent Road, it has never passed Q, WL, RL or PM.
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Post by John tuthill on Nov 6, 2013 14:30:45 GMT
I can answer my own question!(Should have known better) The A2 has and did have-Q-WL-RL-PM-NX! The A2 goes up the Old Kent Road, it has never passed Q, WL, RL or PM. OOOPPS! I used to be a BT engineer and the number of times I drove from Vauxhall to Lewisham... ho hum
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2013 15:15:26 GMT
Reading thro ugh a lot of varied threads I have noticed that one particular point is continually repeated and that is capacity of operators garages. Most are rammed full with no additional space. A lot of the older members of this forum will remember garages that have closed (mostly for the redevelopment value i.e GM) but the garages that were around in LT days were built where they were for a reason. There was very little light running and garages served local areas. The problem now is there are too many buses operating from to few garages with too much light running which makes no economical or environmental sense. I agree 100% with you on that!
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