South Norwood night bus service

[6HP502C]

There is a bit of a network hole at night time in the South Norwood area. As such, I wonder if it is worth spending any of my time pushing the idea of a night service linking Crystal Palace with Croydon via Anerley. Possible routings could be;

Crystal Palace to Anerley Robin Hood via Penge (227+197) or via Anerley Station (N3.)

Anerley Robin Hood to Croydon Katherine Street via either route 75, giving Selhurst (South) a night service or via route 197, giving Addiscombe a night service.

The idea is for there to be a night service for the South Norwood/Norwood Junction area. Running through to Katherine Street would possibly make the service more worthwhile owing to the night time economy in the Park Street area.

I post to ask if anyone knows of any existing public campaigns that demonstrates a demand for such a service, or any local changes which would amount to a possible change in night time network usage since the N75 was withdrawn?

[Ice Prxnce]

The best thing would be if N68 was re-routed along South Norwood Hill, through Norwood Junction on to Selhurst Road and Wellesey Road instead Whitehorse Road.

[vjaska]

Nov 8, 2013 18:27:06 GMT Ice Prxnce said:

The best thing would be if N68 was re-routed along South Norwood Hill, through Norwood Junction on to Selhurst Road and Wellesey Road instead Whitehorse Road.

I don't see why Whitehorse Lane & Whitehorse Road should lose its only night bus service when there are other viable alternatives that could be used.

[vjaska]

Nov 8, 2013 16:57:56 GMT 6HP502C said:

There is a bit of a network hole at night time in the South Norwood area. As such, I wonder if it is worth spending any of my time pushing the idea of a night service linking Crystal Palace with Croydon via Anerley. Possible routings could be;

Crystal Palace to Anerley Robin Hood via Penge (227+197) or via Anerley Station (N3.)

Anerley Robin Hood to Croydon Katherine Street via either route 75, giving Selhurst (South) a night service or via route 197, giving Addiscombe a night service.

The idea is for there to be a night service for the South Norwood/Norwood Junction area. Running through to Katherine Street would possibly make the service more worthwhile owing to the night time economy in the Park Street area.

I post to ask if anyone knows of any existing public campaigns that demonstrates a demand for such a service, or any local changes which would amount to a possible change in night time network usage since the N75 was withdrawn?

I agree that Norwood Junction should have a night service as it's cut off at night from the bus network - I've tried getting home from there and it involves walking to take the N68.

I've had a proposal for a while now to solve it - extend the N2 from Crystal Palace to Sutton via the 157 to West Croydon, then 154 to Sutton. It solves two problems at once (Norwood Junction gets its night service back, as do residents along the old N213) and, although won't serve Park Street, stops nearby at Fairfield Halls.

[snoggle]

One thing that is interesting is to look at that bus route patronage data and see the numbers the N75 journeys were carrying (over 120,000 in its last full year of operation) and compare them to the most recent numbers on other N routes. Those numbers are way higher than the N321, N64, Night C2, N213, N365, N85, N474 currently carry. While there may be other valid reasons for these marginal routes running it does look a tad odd that a "successful" night service was removed when it was. It would most likely be carrying well in excess of 150,000 pax pa by now given the generally good growth rates on many night routes.

Some of the more recent withdrawals like the N274 and N236 had low and declining usage so you can understand the reasoning for their removal.

Looking at the timing of the night journey withdrawals I wonder if it was to do with the retendering to Metrobus where there might have been "step change" costs in running a night service from Croydon garage *at that time* (I know other night routes run from Croydon garage now).

[Hassaan]

Nov 8, 2013 20:01:20 GMT snoggle said:

One thing that is interesting is to look at that bus route patronage data and see the numbers the N75 journeys were carrying (over 120,000 in its last full year of operation) and compare them to the most recent numbers on other N routes. Those numbers are way higher than the N321, N64, Night C2, N213, N365, N85, N474 currently carry. While there may be other valid reasons for these marginal routes running it does look a tad odd that a "successful" night service was removed when it was. It would most likely be carrying well in excess of 150,000 pax pa by now given the generally good growth rates on many night routes.

Some of the more recent withdrawals like the N274 and N236 had low and declining usage so you can understand the reasoning for their removal.

Looking at the timing of the night journey withdrawals I wonder if it was to do with the retendering to Metrobus where there might have been "step change" costs in running a night service from Croydon garage *at that time* (I know other night routes run from Croydon garage now).

With the N474, I've been living along it by Gallions Reach Station (about halfway along the route) for almost 2 months now and I haven't seen more than 3 passengers on it whenever I've seen one go past. I just checked the figures and they are around 60,000 so I'm probably unlucky in seeing empty buses.

[snoggle]

Nov 8, 2013 21:08:59 GMT Hassaan said:

Nov 8, 2013 20:01:20 GMT snoggle said:

One thing that is interesting is to look at that bus route patronage data and see the numbers the N75 journeys were carrying (over 120,000 in its last full year of operation) and compare them to the most recent numbers on other N routes. Those numbers are way higher than the N321, N64, Night C2, N213, N365, N85, N474 currently carry. While there may be other valid reasons for these marginal routes running it does look a tad odd that a "successful" night service was removed when it was. It would most likely be carrying well in excess of 150,000 pax pa by now given the generally good growth rates on many night routes.

Some of the more recent withdrawals like the N274 and N236 had low and declining usage so you can understand the reasoning for their removal.

Looking at the timing of the night journey withdrawals I wonder if it was to do with the retendering to Metrobus where there might have been "step change" costs in running a night service from Croydon garage *at that time* (I know other night routes run from Croydon garage now).

With the N474, I've been living along it by Gallions Reach Station (about halfway along the route) for almost 2 months now and I haven't seen more than 3 passengers on it whenever I've seen one go past. I just checked the figures and they are around 60,000 so I'm probably unlucky in seeing empty buses.

Actually I suspect empty buses are perfectly plausible. Given it runs for about 4 hours a night, twice an hour for 364 days a year then each bus only carries an average of 10 people. I'm pretty certain that within an average on 10 pax per bus there is the possibility of zero pax being spotted at some point on the route.

[paulsw2]

Nov 8, 2013 18:54:39 GMT vjaska said:

Nov 8, 2013 16:57:56 GMT 6HP502C said:

There is a bit of a network hole at night time in the South Norwood area. As such, I wonder if it is worth spending any of my time pushing the idea of a night service linking Crystal Palace with Croydon via Anerley. Possible routings could be;

Crystal Palace to Anerley Robin Hood via Penge (227+197) or via Anerley Station (N3.)

Anerley Robin Hood to Croydon Katherine Street via either route 75, giving Selhurst (South) a night service or via route 197, giving Addiscombe a night service.

The idea is for there to be a night service for the South Norwood/Norwood Junction area. Running through to Katherine Street would possibly make the service more worthwhile owing to the night time economy in the Park Street area.

I post to ask if anyone knows of any existing public campaigns that demonstrates a demand for such a service, or any local changes which would amount to a possible change in night time network usage since the N75 was withdrawn?

I agree that Norwood Junction should have a night service as it's cut off at night from the bus network - I've tried getting home from there and it involves walking to take the N68.

I've had a proposal for a while now to solve it - extend the N2 from Crystal Palace to Sutton via the 157 to West Croydon, then 154 to Sutton. It solves two problems at once (Norwood Junction gets its night service back, as do residents along the old N213) and, although won't serve Park Street, stops nearby at Fairfield Halls.

Dont mess with the N2 its bad enough already the most feasible way to supply a night bus to South Norwood Wallington Carshalton would be to make the 157 a 24 hour service with journeys 0030- 0500 running a loop from Rose Hill into Sutton Town centre and back to Rose Hill this serve St Helier hospital as well
The route could also be tweaked in central Croydon at night to serve Park Street And use the flyover.

[vjaska]

Nov 9, 2013 2:51:33 GMT paulsw2 said:

Nov 8, 2013 18:54:39 GMT vjaska said:

I agree that Norwood Junction should have a night service as it's cut off at night from the bus network - I've tried getting home from there and it involves walking to take the N68.

I've had a proposal for a while now to solve it - extend the N2 from Crystal Palace to Sutton via the 157 to West Croydon, then 154 to Sutton. It solves two problems at once (Norwood Junction gets its night service back, as do residents along the old N213) and, although won't serve Park Street, stops nearby at Fairfield Halls.

Dont mess with the N2 its bad enough already the most feasible way to supply a night bus to South Norwood Wallington Carshalton would be to make the 157 a 24 hour service with journeys 0030- 0500 running a loop from Rose Hill into Sutton Town centre and back to Rose Hill this serve St Helier hospital as well
The route could also be tweaked in central Croydon at night to serve Park Street And use the flyover.

I think the 157 is the worst candidate possible given its unreliability.

Strange to hear the N2 is bad enough, never noticed any issues with it whenever I've seen it nor heard anyone complain about it either.

[Deleted]

You need to complain to TfL , can't understand why such a large area of dense housing gets no night bus yet Teddington in sW London has 3

[Steve80]

Nov 9, 2013 4:00:32 GMT vjaska said:

Nov 9, 2013 2:51:33 GMT paulsw2 said:

Dont mess with the N2 its bad enough already the most feasible way to supply a night bus to South Norwood Wallington Carshalton would be to make the 157 a 24 hour service with journeys 0030- 0500 running a loop from Rose Hill into Sutton Town centre and back to Rose Hill this serve St Helier hospital as well
The route could also be tweaked in central Croydon at night to serve Park Street And use the flyover.

I think the 157 is the worst candidate possible given its unreliability.

Strange to hear the N2 is bad enough, never noticed any issues with it whenever I've seen it nor heard anyone complain about it either.

The 157 at night is a bit iffy at night but that's because ibus still makes us run to headway despite it being a 20 minute service. This is a big problem for one of the duties on the 157 which reaches crystal palace at 2235. If they make you leave late at morden then your not going to arrive at palace in time for the 2240 departure.

As for the N2, I seen various turns on it. I recall being on one a while ago and it kicked us off at Brixton. I was getting off there anyway I kind of get the impression that the running times are too short

[paulsw2]

Nov 9, 2013 4:00:32 GMT vjaska said:

Nov 9, 2013 2:51:33 GMT paulsw2 said:

Dont mess with the N2 its bad enough already the most feasible way to supply a night bus to South Norwood Wallington Carshalton would be to make the 157 a 24 hour service with journeys 0030- 0500 running a loop from Rose Hill into Sutton Town centre and back to Rose Hill this serve St Helier hospital as well
The route could also be tweaked in central Croydon at night to serve Park Street And use the flyover.

I think the 157 is the worst candidate possible given its unreliability.

Strange to hear the N2 is bad enough, never noticed any issues with it whenever I've seen it nor heard anyone complain about it either.

travelling home from work at 2.30 sometimes waiting 40 mins at Brixton for bus up the hill and get 2 running together
The 157 idea would work if contract was run by GoAhead as Sutton/Merton would be suitable garage to be allocated to with meal breaks taken at Morden.

[Deleted]

Nov 9, 2013 4:00:32 GMT vjaska said:

Nov 9, 2013 2:51:33 GMT paulsw2 said:

Dont mess with the N2 its bad enough already the most feasible way to supply a night bus to South Norwood Wallington Carshalton would be to make the 157 a 24 hour service with journeys 0030- 0500 running a loop from Rose Hill into Sutton Town centre and back to Rose Hill this serve St Helier hospital as well
The route could also be tweaked in central Croydon at night to serve Park Street And use the flyover.

I think the 157 is the worst candidate possible given its unreliability.

Strange to hear the N2 is bad enough, never noticed any issues with it whenever I've seen it nor heard anyone complain about it either.

I suspect the 157 problems are down to the operator.

Extend the N176 via the daytime 197 route to Croydon.

[Deleted]

Nov 8, 2013 21:08:59 GMT Hassaan said:

Nov 8, 2013 20:01:20 GMT snoggle said:

One thing that is interesting is to look at that bus route patronage data and see the numbers the N75 journeys were carrying (over 120,000 in its last full year of operation) and compare them to the most recent numbers on other N routes. Those numbers are way higher than the N321, N64, Night C2, N213, N365, N85, N474 currently carry. While there may be other valid reasons for these marginal routes running it does look a tad odd that a "successful" night service was removed when it was. It would most likely be carrying well in excess of 150,000 pax pa by now given the generally good growth rates on many night routes.

Some of the more recent withdrawals like the N274 and N236 had low and declining usage so you can understand the reasoning for their removal.

Looking at the timing of the night journey withdrawals I wonder if it was to do with the retendering to Metrobus where there might have been "step change" costs in running a night service from Croydon garage *at that time* (I know other night routes run from Croydon garage now).

With the N474, I've been living along it by Gallions Reach Station (about halfway along the route) for almost 2 months now and I haven't seen more than 3 passengers on it whenever I've seen one go past. I just checked the figures and they are around 60,000 so I'm probably unlucky in seeing empty buses.

The 474 doesn't seem particularly busy in the daytime so I'm not really suprised at your observations, I'd be dubious about any such figures although some people swear by them

[snoggle]

Nov 9, 2013 10:15:20 GMT @antman said:

Nov 8, 2013 21:08:59 GMT Hassaan said:

With the N474, I've been living along it by Gallions Reach Station (about halfway along the route) for almost 2 months now and I haven't seen more than 3 passengers on it whenever I've seen one go past. I just checked the figures and they are around 60,000 so I'm probably unlucky in seeing empty buses.

The 474 doesn't seem particularly busy in the daytime so I'm not really suprised at your observations, I'd be dubious about any such figures although some people swear by them

Here you go again. Why are you dubious about the numbers? You have not explained your reasons for saying this and I think we deserve to hear your wisdom on this matter.