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Post by ServerKing on Dec 15, 2013 15:15:20 GMT
To put it bluntly, London's buses are dire. Fares and journey times aside, the buses are dirty, information and marketing inside the bus is completely non-existent. Buses have a terrible image in London (basically poor man's travel - the yuppies especially shun buses) which is only slightly countered by the Borisbus. Sorry, but I can't let that go unchallenged. London's buses are far from dire. They may not be perfect - there's always room for improvement - but they're not dire. In my experience 'yuppies' (is it still 1987?) shun buses far less in London than elsewhere - who are all those people in suits I see waiting for buses to get them to and from the station?. Frequencies and densities are far better than they've ever been. Yes, there are good operations outside the capital, but the fact the same few names keep getting trotted out (Brighton, Nottingham and Oxford) suggest the picture is not as rosy as you suggest. Look at the stats comparing ridership levels in London with the downward trend outside. No-one would ever point to Northampton as exemplars. I should say I'm not connected with TfL but I am someone who prefers to go by London bus rather than run a car. Though I drive around in a BMW it's nice to take a year-old Volvo into the West End when I'm with the family (usually one from the 29  ) Having been to Northampton and it's filthy sister Kettering, I can confirm aside from Stagecoach's services which are OK for anything outside London (I do like their LED Blinds, but I think Leon Daniels will go with ice-white LED soon like MBK1's ), but not spectacular. The Scania E400's have only just ousted a large chunk of step-entrance buses from Kettering. Frequencies are a lot lower, and aside from I think the X4, and a few branded Solo's, it's not that fantastic. We don't need loads of branding - we used to do it (I liked the 283's Duck Bus), but you'd have to keep each bus on it's individual branded route. I think London's buses are fantastic (being able to use my Barclaycard on the 144 was handy, a wile ago it would have meant being kicked off the bus for having no change), we don't need WiFi on the buses, if anything I'd put WiFi on the tube (on the trains not just in the stations)  |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 17, 2014 20:17:34 GMT
The TfL paper that prompted this thread was recently review at the appropriate meeting and the minutes have just been published. MinutesThe actions from the meeting in respect of the future shape and financing of the Bus Network raise some interesting potential future issues. ---- The Committee requested further information, to a future meeting, on the options, issues and trade-offs for London’s bus services. The paper would set out the long term demand and subsidy forecast costs, reflecting predicted population growth and present a wider range of options to reduce costs, and the relative value of each element, including: (a) the costs and benefits of the existing provision of free travel; (b) vehicle lifetime costs: setting out specification, maintenance and fuel costs over the lifetime of vehicles and comparing the cost of extending vehicle life against the cost of renewing fleets and the impact on reliability and the Mayor’s Air Quality Strategy; (c) fuel costs; including how the risk was shared between TfL and the operators and the expected impact of the greater use of electric and hybrid vehicles; (d) labour costs, setting out the savings achieved to date through developments such as iBus, and options for further savings; and (e) the predicted impact on income and routes for the Night Bus service. Note that the actions that have been set are all about taking cost of the network and not about adding to the network or adopting a strategy for more growth and expansion. That's pretty much guaranteed to cause anger from various politicians and stakeholders. So if I wanted to be really horrible we can forecast TfL scrapping free travel for various groups, running older buses for much longer than currently (I predicted this a fair while ago), cuts to the Night Bus network (presumably off the back of the Night tube) and much more pressure to screw down staff costs / levels in the operators and in Surface Transport. It will be interesting to see the future paper (listed for March 2014) but unfortunately all the juicy bits about money and staff levels will no doubt be excluded. |
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Post by rambo on Jan 17, 2014 22:29:42 GMT
I can't see TFL withdrawing free travel for certain groups, it would be political suicide for the mayor.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2014 22:55:18 GMT
Well with cutting free travel for various groups, I think it's ideal to consult on enabling discounts for the various groups rather then making them pay the full Oyster rate. Mostly with the Oyster for students and pupils, I would prefer free travel to be enabled on weekdays so they can get to school and back. But during weekends and holidays, they have to pay the discounted fare. But there are many ways to alter things instead of cutting things.
But as part of the UK government plans with their austerity cuts they are proposing to scrap the Freedom pass for Elderly and disabled.
But I am not going further because I would end up starting a political debate...
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Post by snoggle on Jan 17, 2014 23:16:59 GMT
I can't see TFL withdrawing free travel for certain groups, it would be political suicide for the mayor. I agree with you but it seems the members of the Finance and Policy Committee want the issue examined. It is sensible to have all the issues examined even if the Mayor overrules any recommendation to save money by changing the nature of the concessions. What is interesting at this point in time is that the issue has not reached the Board yet. Normally papers go through this Committee to the Board even if only for noting and not agreement of specific recommendations. |
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Post by snowman on Jan 18, 2014 10:36:56 GMT
I can't see TFL withdrawing free travel for certain groups, it would be political suicide for the mayor. I agree with you but it seems the members of the Finance and Policy Committee want the issue examined. It is sensible to have all the issues examined even if the Mayor overrules any recommendation to save money by changing the nature of the concessions. What is interesting at this point in time is that the issue has not reached the Board yet. Normally papers go through this Committee to the Board even if only for noting and not agreement of specific recommendations. I can see it being appraised and savings calculated. I agree its not going to happen this side of a mayoral election, but could easily see it implemented in first few weeks of new mayor. From a PR perspective probably makes sence to get all the bad news out in one big hit rather than implement cuts in instalments. I think the current subsidies are far too generous, I know of someone earning over £60k who gets free travel (in the police) and another rumoured to be earning over £100k (partner works for TfL), surely they should buy own travelcard like rest of us. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 18, 2014 11:23:37 GMT
Well with cutting free travel for various groups, I think it's ideal to consult on enabling discounts for the various groups rather then making them pay the full Oyster rate. Mostly with the Oyster for students and pupils, I would prefer free travel to be enabled on weekdays so they can get to school and back. But during weekends and holidays, they have to pay the discounted fare. But there are many ways to alter things instead of cutting things. But as part of the UK government plans with their austerity cuts they are proposing to scrap the Freedom pass for Elderly and disabled. But I am not going further because I would end up starting a political debate... Where does this belief that the Freedom Pass is going to be scrapped by the Government come from? The Freedom Pass has nothing to do with the government as it is a Mayoral / London Boroughs responsibility and they decide. It would be politically disastrous for whoever proposed scrapping that scheme. No London politician has seriously suggested scrapping the scheme. London is also ununsual in that there is a "reserve scheme" which is a fall back in case the existing pass cannot be funded. I have not even read that the English National Concessionary Travel scheme is going to be scrapped. There are suggestions that the entitlement to the pass be means tested which I don't have much of an issue with. I also would not be averse to there being a small annual charge for the pass or even a two tier system existing whereby travel in the resident local authority area was free but there was a small annual fee if you wanted National availability beyond that. I also think that English pensioners should be able to purchase an add on pass for Wales and Scotland if they wish. The same facility should be available for Welsh / Scottish pensioners to buy add ons if they wanted. I don't know what happens in Northern Ireland / Isle of Man / Channel Islands in respect of concessionary travel. The finances of the national concessionary scheme are a mess and you either provide more taxpayers money or you do something to raise some revenue to help fund the scheme. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 11:49:56 GMT
I can't see TFL withdrawing free travel for certain groups, it would be political suicide for the mayor. I am not so sure, a major complaint is buses being full of kids and fare paying passengers getting left behind, particularly in the morning peak. Kids aren't free, everybody else is paying for their travel, and if they had to pay, and adult fares were reduced a bit at the same time.................gotta be a winner  |
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Post by twobellstogo on Jan 18, 2014 11:51:21 GMT
running older buses for much longer than currently (I predicted this a fair while ago) ...and if this comes to pass, it would be about time too. There are/have been so many perfectly serviceable and acceptable London buses pushed out of the capital before their time. |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 18, 2014 12:17:13 GMT
running older buses for much longer than currently (I predicted this a fair while ago) ...and if this comes to pass, it would be about time too. There are/have been so many perfectly serviceable and acceptable London buses pushed out of the capital before their time. Completely agree with this but I think it's too little too late. |
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Post by Connor on Jan 18, 2014 12:34:28 GMT
...and if this comes to pass, it would be about time too. There are/have been so many perfectly serviceable and acceptable London buses pushed out of the capital before their time. Completely agree with this but I think it's too little too late. Yes, sadly the S-reg DLAs have gone now...   |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 18, 2014 12:41:00 GMT
Completely agree with this but I think it's too little too late. Yes, sadly the S-reg DLAs have gone now... And the 3 should still have its 51 reg Tridents lol. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 18, 2014 12:54:51 GMT
I can't see TFL withdrawing free travel for certain groups, it would be political suicide for the mayor. I am not so sure, a major complaint is buses being full of kids and fare paying passengers getting left behind, particularly in the morning peak. Kids aren't free, everybody else is paying for their travel, and if they had to pay, and adult fares were reduced a bit at the same time.................gotta be a winner Unfortunately adult fares would not be reduced even if children lost their concession. The money saved would simply reduce the subsidy bill. TfL's business plan is predicated on squeezing vast sums of money from passengers and third parties. The Mayor has said concessions will be maintained. It would take any politician about 10 nanoseconds to come up with a "attacking hard working families" criticism of any policy to charge child fares and therefore cost families more money for their kids to get to school or for the family to travel together for leisure purposes. Attacking "hard working families" or worsening "the cost of living crisis" is simply not politically acceptable hence why we've had all the flip flopping about the rail / TfL fares increase this year. Given that Boris thinks that saving £3 a year on the City Hall council tax precept is somehow fantastic when his fare increases (even the low one this year) grab that money back within a few weeks if you buy any form of season ticket or use PAYG on the buses then it's a very easy line of attack to deploy. You might want kids kicked off the buses but I doubt many London politicians or voters do. |
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Post by marlon101 on Jan 18, 2014 16:05:11 GMT
I am not so sure, a major complaint is buses being full of kids and fare paying passengers getting left behind, particularly in the morning peak. Kids aren't free, everybody else is paying for their travel, and if they had to pay, and adult fares were reduced a bit at the same time.................gotta be a winner Unfortunately adult fares would not be reduced even if children lost their concession. The money saved would simply reduce the subsidy bill. TfL's business plan is predicated on squeezing vast sums of money from passengers and third parties. The Mayor has said concessions will be maintained. It would take any politician about 10 nanoseconds to come up with a "attacking hard working families" criticism of any policy to charge child fares and therefore cost families more money for their kids to get to school or for the family to travel together for leisure purposes. Attacking "hard working families" or worsening "the cost of living crisis" is simply not politically acceptable hence why we've had all the flip flopping about the rail / TfL fares increase this year. Given that Boris thinks that saving £3 a year on the City Hall council tax precept is somehow fantastic when his fare increases (even the low one this year) grab that money back within a few weeks if you buy any form of season ticket or use PAYG on the buses then it's a very easy line of attack to deploy. You might want kids kicked off the buses but I doubt many London politicians or voters do. Difficult though removing concessions would be, and an attack on hard-working families I think people generally would be very happy to see kids free travel restricted to 7 to 7, Monday to Friday, term time only. I'm not sure what it would save, but I think it'd attract more to the bus of a weekend... |
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Post by rambo on Jan 18, 2014 23:56:08 GMT
The freedom pass should not be means tested, imo.
Free travel for kids to and from school, then reduced rate is a good idea, but the mayor won't do it, if he wants to win again.
Ive no problem driving older buses, but, as a driver, TFL must insist on new seats/steering wheel and air con for the driver.
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) Having been to Northampton and it's filthy sister Kettering, I can confirm aside from Stagecoach's services which are OK for anything outside London (I do like their LED Blinds, but I think Leon Daniels will go with ice-white LED soon like MBK1's ), but not spectacular. The Scania E400's have only just ousted a large chunk of step-entrance buses from Kettering. Frequencies are a lot lower, and aside from I think the X4, and a few branded Solo's, it's not that fantastic. We don't need loads of branding - we used to do it (I liked the 283's Duck Bus), but you'd have to keep each bus on it's individual branded route. I think London's buses are fantastic (being able to use my Barclaycard on the 144 was handy, a wile ago it would have meant being kicked off the bus for having no change), we don't need WiFi on the buses, if anything I'd put WiFi on the tube (on the trains not just in the stations) 
