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Post by snoggle on Jan 23, 2014 17:46:39 GMT
I believe the 15H is not allowed to do anything that the 15 doesn't do: it is seen as potentially discriminatory to offer a through service using non-accessible vehicles if there isn't an accessible through service (hence the separate 9H and 15H instead of a more useful through Kensington-Tower service). But I would like to see the 15H run through to Regent Street - this would standardise the central terminus, bring RMs back to Piccadilly Circus and be a boon to tourists going to the West End. That's only some daft rule that TfL came up with, DDA doesn't start for another three years and the whole route would be duplicated by other supposedly fully accessible buses, the 436 could do the Paddington Basin bit A "daft rule" that is in place to avoid TfL being taken to court by campaigners who would use equality legisation, not the DDA, to make their case. Would you rather TfL were dragged through the courts wasting tens of thousands of pounds of public money or that TfL had a rule that prevented such needless expenditure?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 18:50:16 GMT
Dragged through court? I've never heard anything so ridiculous
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Post by snoggle on Jan 23, 2014 19:13:22 GMT
Dragged through court? I've never heard anything so ridiculous I suggest you familiarise yourself with the views of some disabled bus passengers and certain lobby groups that represent them. You would then see that there is a distinct possibility of a legal challenge if TfL were to create new links which were not accessible. I would also expect a fair volume of political opposition directed at the Mayor. Recent campaigns about accessibility at Crossrail suburban stations, that were originally not expected to be accessible [1], show the likely result. The Mayor, DfT and TfL have opted to find the funding (somehow) to make these stations accessible rather than face years and years of opposition, complaints and demonstrations. Of course it is not presented like this but it will form part of the consideration in deciding to get the work done. [1] not required by the relevant Crossrail legislation.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 19:55:18 GMT
Making stations accessible by fitting lifts has been going for sometime now and obviously benefits a lot of people. Anybody who cannot use routemasters on the 15H can use the 15 or 23 instead.
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Post by danorak on Jan 23, 2014 20:11:58 GMT
Dragged through court? I've never heard anything so ridiculous First and Arriva have both faced court cases brought under equality legislation regarding buses, so it's not that far-fetched. First lost, Arriva won & I believe both have gone to appeal.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 20:13:18 GMT
Seeing as we now have a direct replacement of the Routemaster the raison d'etre for the heritage routes does seem to have diminished. The creation of the 9H and 15H was never due to an actual transport need, so I think it's logical that these routes (well the 9H at least without speculating too much about the other one) are no longer seen to be needed.
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Post by twobellstogo on Jan 23, 2014 22:00:51 GMT
The 9 was always, by some margin, the weaker of the two heritage services, and the fact that it will have had an innings of eight and a half years is something to be celebrated.
Time will tell, but I have the feeling that the heritage 15 may well go on for a good while onwards. Will be interested to see which of route 9's RMs will transfer to the 15, and thus which of route 15's current fleet is culled.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 10:52:23 GMT
Dragged through court? I've never heard anything so ridiculous First and Arriva have both faced court cases brought under equality legislation regarding buses, so it's not that far-fetched. First lost, Arriva won & I believe both have gone to appeal. I think those cases were about giving priority to wheelchair users which is a different issue. Until 2017 operators can use step entrance buses.
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Post by danorak on Jan 24, 2014 12:05:18 GMT
First and Arriva have both faced court cases brought under equality legislation regarding buses, so it's not that far-fetched. First lost, Arriva won & I believe both have gone to appeal. I think those cases were about giving priority to wheelchair users which is a different issue. Until 2017 operators can use step entrance buses. Which is true, but my point was that disability campaigners are increasingly using the legal system to bring test cases about access to transport. The First and Arriva cases seem to have come up with two conflicting answers to essentially the same question. You can see why TfL, having come this far, are not going to row back on matters of bus accessibility and risk legal or 'direct' action with only three years to go before full compliance anyway. Frankly, the game's not worth the candle.
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Post by joefrombow on Jan 25, 2014 6:44:44 GMT
Just a random question to anyone who might know out of interest ! But I was just wondering how do the drivers rota's on the Heritage routes work , As there are no Early's or lates ? Do all drivers and conductors work the whole day on the same bus and do they work to a normal rota or have a set day /days off every week and also on the old RM routes when RM's never ran on Sundays were drivers and conductors on a 6 on 1 off rota ?? How did it work back then ?
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Post by marlon101 on Jan 25, 2014 9:53:40 GMT
I remember an episode on 'Running London's Roads' where an engineer from X talked about working with the route masters and how he loved them. It'll be a shame if they were to go... They're going so it is a shame for those who are bothered about this but they'll just have to put up with it. I am sure people will moan, complain, lobby and ask the Mayor awkward questions but the Heritage routes are an utter anachronism and far too expensive and have been since the day they started. I am sure the engineer at Westbourne Park will shed a tear when they leave but he may well opt to retire - I think he said something like that on the show. I doubt we'll ever know though. There's more to life than just money... You'll next tell me the artifacts of the British Museum are anachronistic and their collection does not cover their costs... One wonders whether Tower Transit themselves have had some involvement in this decision. Just the way it came up and my suspicion they'd struggle to make it profitable on the existing subsidy.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 25, 2014 10:52:44 GMT
They're going so it is a shame for those who are bothered about this but they'll just have to put up with it. I am sure people will moan, complain, lobby and ask the Mayor awkward questions but the Heritage routes are an utter anachronism and far too expensive and have been since the day they started. I am sure the engineer at Westbourne Park will shed a tear when they leave but he may well opt to retire - I think he said something like that on the show. I doubt we'll ever know though. There's more to life than just money... You'll next tell me the artifacts of the British Museum are anachronistic and their collection does not cover their costs... One wonders whether Tower Transit themselves have had some involvement in this decision. Just the way it came up and my suspicion they'd struggle to make it profitable on the existing subsidy. There are oodles of RMs in preservation alongside other London bus types. There are now more opportunities to ride on preserved London buses than there were a decade ago. The number of running days is very impressive. Quite rightly people have decided to preserve these vehicles - I have no issue with that. I fail to see what the British Museum has to do with TfL running 60 year old buses. I fully support museums and the arts (and libraries for that matter) being properly funded by the State. I may not partake of them very much myself but I can see the need and value in them. It is a great shame that the current government are happy to see these facilities destroyed through ludicrous demands for local authority spending cuts. Once these things have gone then they've gone forever and who knows what will be lost for future generations. I do think there is a legitimate question as to whether it is TfL's "core business" to fund low frequency services in Zone 1 using buses that are nearly 60 years old. The costs per km are much higher than other services and given the combined effect of the Government's and Mayor's decisions on funding TfL it is utterly inevitable that high cost / low use services or facilities will be targeted in the search for savings. If I was given the choice of running RM Heritage routes and cutting the LT Museum or scrapping the Heritage routes and providing more money to the Museum then I'd opt for the latter. I'm not saying that is the choice here but I've held my view about the lack of value of money from the Heritage routes since they were introduced. [The LT Museum is, of course, facing its own funding cuts as a result of TfL's funding pressures.]
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Post by Mokujin on Feb 10, 2014 18:19:48 GMT
I have to say whenever I saw the 9H, it was lightly used. I didn't see the point of it either. Not surprised its going.
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Post by MoEnviro on Feb 10, 2014 19:02:26 GMT
I hope that a running day is being arranged to give the 9H a good send off, its a shame to lose one of the remaining routemaster routes in the year of the bus and the same year as the RM60 event
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2014 8:29:29 GMT
I believe the 15H is not allowed to do anything that the 15 doesn't do: it is seen as potentially discriminatory to offer a through service using non-accessible vehicles if there isn't an accessible through service (hence the separate 9H and 15H instead of a more useful through Kensington-Tower service). But I would like to see the 15H run through to Regent Street - this would standardise the central terminus, bring RMs back to Piccadilly Circus and be a boon to tourists going to the West End. That's only some daft rule that TfL came up with, DDA doesn't start for another three years and the whole route would be duplicated by other supposedly fully accessible buses, the 436 could do the Paddington Basin bit I think we have seen elsewhere by a post from Mr Daniels that this duplicated route exception fable is just that, a fable. I am amazed at the number of people who if they repeat a statement more than 'x' times believe it becomes fact. As it stands the 15H has to be off the road by 2017, but TfL are currently looking as if there is anyway of making it an exception to this law (and it will not be TfL that makes the call)
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