Uncoordinated Timetables

[Deleted]

Hello,

Can I ask does TFL have a say in timetables? I have noticed that routes 241, 325 and 541 all leave Prince Regent Bus Station very closely timmed  and travel across a common section of route over 4 roads towards Plaistow.

For example


Route 241 (stagecoach) leaves at


58 10 22 34 46

Route 325 (Arriva)


30 42 54 06 18

Route 541 (Docklands)

12 59 11 23 35 47


This can be a pain, it would be much better if buses were most spaced out to provide a more even service. Also when in car it can be a right pain being stuck behind 3 buses waiting at stops in fairly tight roads!


Shouldn't operators coordinate timetables working together to provide a better service?  

 

[guybowden]

Weekday day mornings at the Civic Center bus stop on Kentish Way a 208 going to Lewisham Station is due about 06:40ish and then a 261 also going to Lewisham Station 2 minutes later, then you have a wait of about 10 or so minutes.

I'm sure it would be better to have that gap increased to 5 or 7 minutes. 1 so those traveling to Lewisham Station have a more even service and between The Crown pub along Bromley Common to Boots in Widmore Road these routes over lap each other. 2 you wont have 2 or more buses at that stop, which is not the biggest stop for passenger access space when there is bundles of space to make it bigger.

[snoggle]

In principle I would prefer to see co-ordinated timetables but in a network as dense and frequent as London then it is not very easy.

Tyne and Wear PTE used to co-ordinate a lot of the timetables so that common sections of route used to have even headways right across the day, every day of the week. They were only able to achieve this because over a period of 4 years they progressively restructured the entire network to link to the Metro. When I came to London I expected London's system to be similar - err no it wasn't. I remember asking the tutor I was interviewed by for my degree course if there was a LT Bus Timetable. He said the last one had been published in the 1960s. I was gobsmacked.

In London the issue will be what section of route do you decide is "common" and what routes do you co-ordinate. Some routes may have more than one common section and then how do you ensure that there is a co-ordinated headway across all the sections? I'd suggest that it is almost impossible to achieve in theory and, of course, the reality of delays means that the theory flies out the window pretty quickly! I *do* think TfL have to pay much more attention to balanced headways in early mornings, evenings and Sundays. There is more scope to co-ordinate, less risk of delay and more benefit to passengers from a regular service.

The only really good example of co-ordinated timetables I've seen was in Capital Citybus days when they ran the 97, 97A and 215. During evenings and Sundays they had a co-ordinated timetable from Walthamstow to Chingford Mount in both directions giving a 7-8 minute headway. It was very good but now it's a complete mess with different operators and the 97 is now every 12 mins on Sundays making it hard to co-ordinate things. The 212 and 275 should be co-ordinated from St James St - Wood Street but never have been meaning you don't miss one bus, you often miss two because they leave together! On Sundays the 123 and 230 run together from Blackhorse Rd to Tottenham meaning massive crowds of people for whichever bus comes first. Despite the tube paralleling that section the buses remain very well used but the uneven headway is a bit stupid.

As TfL specify the service level and approve the schedules then they are in a position to try to enforce more co-ordination. One area where I can see a problem is what happens if contracts / timetables / frequencies change. Who is responsible for maintaining the co-ordination in such circumstances? If I was an operator who had a nice reliable timetable would I be happy to be forced to change because another operator was having issues with the schedule that was co-ordinated with mine? If I had to change my timetable and, for some reason, it became less reliable and I lost money as a result then who is responsible for compensating me when I previously had something that worked? The other problem is that you could end up in a vicious circle of schedules forever changing just to remain co-ordinated.

My Tyne and Wear experience was what a time of low car ownership and low levels of congestion in the North East. That's changed these days with dreadful peak hour congestion so I suspect there is no real coordination of timetables and that's before you add in the effect of competition between operators. Operators have to change their timetables to avoid being challenged by the Traffic Commissioners and the congestion levels usually mean a lower peak frequency than off peak as operators don't add resource to maintain headways.

[6HP502C]

Apr 18, 2014 19:44:45 GMT @dan said:

Hello,

Can I ask does TFL have a say in timetables? I have noticed that routes 241, 325 and 541 all leave Prince Regent Bus Station very closely timmed  and travel across a common section of route over 4 roads towards Plaistow.

For example


Route 241 (stagecoach) leaves at


58 10 22 34 46

Route 325 (Arriva)


30 42 54 06 18

Route 541 (Docklands)

12 59 11 23 35 47


This can be a pain, it would be much better if buses were most spaced out to provide a more even service. Also when in car it can be a right pain being stuck behind 3 buses waiting at stops in fairly tight roads!


Shouldn't operators coordinate timetables working together to provide a better service?  

 

The 325 and 541 are evenly spaced. What's the issue here?

As for whether or not TfL has a say, the answer is yes. Specifications can include a requirement for scheduled interworking with other parallel routes at specific points. I've requested a few where there was not any such requirement before. Regardless of the schedule, it may not always be practicable on high frequency routes as the headway takes precedence over the timetable.

[Deleted]

Down ham bromley road on fri/sat nights the n47 & n136 are not evenly spaced, the n136 departs 4 mins after the n47, both are every 20 mins. This is towards Central London.

[Deleted]

Sutton to Purley after the last 154 departs at 01.30.

So for example if I was leaving Sutton at 2am-

N44 Sutton departing at 02.06 scheduled to arrive at Mitcham at 02.18.

264(Every 30 mins) leaves Mitcham for Croydon at 02.24.

It is a 2/3 minute walk just to interchange stops! So poorly done as if the N44 is late by 2 mins the connection is missed.

Anyway if I do get the connection, the 264 arrives at Whitgift Centre Croydon at 02.41 and guess what the half-hourly N68 departs Whitgift Centre for Purley at 02.43. Two minutes!!

All very nice, if everything goes to plan but it is just too tight. If one bus is late, the whole journey gets messed up.

All this would be resolved with later 154 departures from Sutton to Croydon.