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Post by snoggle on Aug 4, 2014 22:01:13 GMT
I suspect it would go a long way to doing so by providing a viable public transport option for many cross river journies. Providing more roadspace at the Blackwall Tunnel isn't a long term solution just like the southbound tunnel which was opened in the 1960's hasn't been. People are creatures of habit, I doubt you would see a mass change from car to train! but could be wrong. Also don't forget all the lorries , vans etc that use the tunnel daily. Recent history is a good indicator here. We have had 4 new river crossings provided by rail east of Tower Bridge - 2 on the Jubilee Line, DLR to Lewisham and DLR to Woolwich. We will have Crossrail in 4 years time linking to Woolwich and Abbey Wood. Has road traffic declined at the Blackwall Tunnel in that time? Doubtful to be honest. Has demand on the 108 gone down - nope? What has happened is that the total market for cross river travel in East London has grown hugely and I expect Crossrail will continue that. However all the rail infrastructure has done is postpone the day when cross Thames road infrastructure has to be added. Can you imagine how horrific the Blackwall Tunnel crossing would be if the rail options were not there? |
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Post by vjaska on Aug 4, 2014 22:21:00 GMT
People are creatures of habit, I doubt you would see a mass change from car to train! but could be wrong. Also don't forget all the lorries , vans etc that use the tunnel daily. Recent history is a good indicator here. We have had 4 new river crossings provided by rail east of Tower Bridge - 2 on the Jubilee Line, DLR to Lewisham and DLR to Woolwich. We will have Crossrail in 4 years time linking to Woolwich and Abbey Wood. Has road traffic declined at the Blackwall Tunnel in that time? Doubtful to be honest. Has demand on the 108 gone down - nope? What has happened is that the total market for cross river travel in East London has grown hugely and I expect Crossrail will continue that. However all the rail infrastructure has done is postpone the day when cross Thames road infrastructure has to be added. Can you imagine how horrific the Blackwall Tunnel crossing would be if the rail options were not there? Bang on, it would be horrific trying to use the Blackwall Tunnel if those rail options were not there and the Blackwall Tunnel is only going to get worse irrespective of what rail options are available - a road crossing is inevitable and is needed sharpish otherwise large areas either side of the tunnel will grind to a halt. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 4, 2014 23:22:48 GMT
Recent history is a good indicator here. We have had 4 new river crossings provided by rail east of Tower Bridge - 2 on the Jubilee Line, DLR to Lewisham and DLR to Woolwich. We will have Crossrail in 4 years time linking to Woolwich and Abbey Wood. Has road traffic declined at the Blackwall Tunnel in that time? Doubtful to be honest. Has demand on the 108 gone down - nope? What has happened is that the total market for cross river travel in East London has grown hugely and I expect Crossrail will continue that. However all the rail infrastructure has done is postpone the day when cross Thames road infrastructure has to be added. Can you imagine how horrific the Blackwall Tunnel crossing would be if the rail options were not there? Bang on, it would be horrific trying to use the Blackwall Tunnel if those rail options were not there and the Blackwall Tunnel is only going to get worse irrespective of what rail options are available - a road crossing is inevitable and is needed sharpish otherwise large areas either side of the tunnel will grind to a halt. Just to be awkward you can turn the argument on its head and say that *not* expanding road capacity across the river is the right thing to do. Yes the Blackwall Tunnel route is ghastly in the peak but the sheer awfulness acts as a restraint on further road traffic growth in the areas north and south of the tunnel. Traffic therefore self regulates and goes elsewhere or doesn't go by road at all. As soon as you increase cross river road capacity, doesn't matter where really, then you will get an exponential growth in road traffic / congestion / pollution across a wider area of SE and East London. You need only look at the DLR to Woolwich - that was full within 6 months and has had to have 3 car trains most of the time. If they could squeeze more trains down there I'm sure they would. One really striking option would be to make the proposed GOBLIN tunnel link from Barking to Thamesmead a combined rail / bus / cycle tunnel link. If you wanted to be helpful to local deliveries then perhaps hybrid or fully electric vans and taxis could be allowed through too. Therefore only "greener" modes could get through. It would be fascinating to see what TfL could do with the bus network if that was in place. If you built the rail link properly you could also run freight through it too. That would take pressure off the West and North London Lines making more room for Overground services. |
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Post by routew15 on Aug 4, 2014 23:49:28 GMT
I would like to see all four proposed river crossings introduced/ improved with all four phased in within a 15 year time span starting with the Silvertown crossing and then working Eastwards.
Slivertown Crossing - opening 2025 - Using the Immersed Tube Tunnel technique, this would allow over height vehicles across the river without needing to cross at Dartford, it would also remove delays on the Blackwall Tunnel Approach. (Two double decker bus routes to cross this crossing)
Woolwich Crossing - opening 2030 - Upgraded Woolwich Ferry Service using higher capacity boats with "drive through" style ferry boats and operation (no buses would use this crossing)
Gallions Crossing - opening 2035 - Large Single Bore Tunnel with one lane in each direction (this proposal could be used in Woolwich as well as the portal and ramp would not need to be as wide) (one single decker route to travel through this crossing)
Belverdere Crossing - opening 2040 - Large Suspension Bridge with two lanes in each direction, cycle and pedestrian pathways, Bus lanes on the North and South ends of the bridge (but not the main span of the bridge itself) in both directions. (Two double and one single decker bus route to cross this crossing)
Really interested to see what TfL chooses to do with the River Crossing proposals.
Hoping they put the proposals into fruition.
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Post by Nathan on Aug 5, 2014 9:51:30 GMT
I would like to see all four proposed river crossings introduced/ improved with all four phased in within a 15 year time span starting with the Silvertown crossing and then working Eastwards. Slivertown Crossing - opening 2025 - Using the Immersed Tube Tunnel technique, this would allow over height vehicles across the river without needing to cross at Dartford, it would also remove delays on the Blackwall Tunnel Approach. (Two double decker bus routes to cross this crossing) Woolwich Crossing - opening 2030 - Upgraded Woolwich Ferry Service using higher capacity boats with "drive through" style ferry boats and operation (no buses would use this crossing) Gallions Crossing - opening 2035 - Large Single Bore Tunnel with one lane in each direction (this proposal could be used in Woolwich as well as the portal and ramp would not need to be as wide) (one single decker route to travel through this crossing) Belverdere Crossing - opening 2040 - Large Suspension Bridge with two lanes in each direction, cycle and pedestrian pathways, Bus lanes on the North and South ends of the bridge (but not the main span of the bridge itself) in both directions. (Two double and one single decker bus route to cross this crossing) Really interested to see what TfL chooses to do with the River Crossing proposals. Hoping they put the proposals into fruition. 4 is a bit much, isn't it? Two maximum would be better. I would choose Belvedere (for access towards Thamesmead, Edith and other areas) and Woolwich (to ease pressure off the Ferry service) |
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Post by LX09FBJ on Aug 5, 2014 11:28:38 GMT
I would like to see all four proposed river crossings introduced/ improved with all four phased in within a 15 year time span starting with the Silvertown crossing and then working Eastwards. Slivertown Crossing - opening 2025 - Using the Immersed Tube Tunnel technique, this would allow over height vehicles across the river without needing to cross at Dartford, it would also remove delays on the Blackwall Tunnel Approach. (Two double decker bus routes to cross this crossing) Woolwich Crossing - opening 2030 - Upgraded Woolwich Ferry Service using higher capacity boats with "drive through" style ferry boats and operation (no buses would use this crossing) Gallions Crossing - opening 2035 - Large Single Bore Tunnel with one lane in each direction (this proposal could be used in Woolwich as well as the portal and ramp would not need to be as wide) (one single decker route to travel through this crossing) Belverdere Crossing - opening 2040 - Large Suspension Bridge with two lanes in each direction, cycle and pedestrian pathways, Bus lanes on the North and South ends of the bridge (but not the main span of the bridge itself) in both directions. (Two double and one single decker bus route to cross this crossing) Really interested to see what TfL chooses to do with the River Crossing proposals. Hoping they put the proposals into fruition. 4 is a bit much, isn't it? Two maximum would be better. I would choose Belvedere (for access towards Thamesmead, Edith and other areas) and Woolwich (to ease pressure off the Ferry service) I think that more river crossings are needed in the East, given that there's only four (Rotherhithe Tunnel, Blackwall Tunnel, Woolwich Ferry and Dartford Crossing) of which only the Blackwall Tunnel has a bus service and all four are always congested and the Woolwich Ferry is often boats short. I personally think that all four should be built, as this would ease pressure on the existing and limited infrastructure currently in place. At the moment Romford and Bexleyheath seem so far away, yet if a Belvedere Bridge was built, the distance would shrink to a distance which would viable for one medium length bus route. In SW London we have (excluding rail bridges): Hampton Court Bridge Kingston Bridge Richmond Bridge A316 Bridge Chiswick Bridge Kew Bridge Hammersmith Bridge Putney Bridge (although currently closed to traffic) Chelsea Bridge Battersea Bridge So that's ten road crossings, and even then most of these are congested at rush hour. |
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Post by vjaska on Aug 5, 2014 13:38:09 GMT
4 is a bit much, isn't it? Two maximum would be better. I would choose Belvedere (for access towards Thamesmead, Edith and other areas) and Woolwich (to ease pressure off the Ferry service) I think that more river crossings are needed in the East, given that there's only four (Rotherhithe Tunnel, Blackwall Tunnel, Woolwich Ferry and Dartford Crossing) of which only the Blackwall Tunnel has a bus service and all four are always congested and the Woolwich Ferry is often boats short. I personally think that all four should be built, as this would ease pressure on the existing and limited infrastructure currently in place. At the moment Romford and Bexleyheath seem so far away, yet if a Belvedere Bridge was built, the distance would shrink to a distance which would viable for one medium length bus route. In SW London we have (excluding rail bridges): Hampton Court Bridge Kingston Bridge Richmond Bridge A316 Bridge Chiswick Bridge Kew Bridge Hammersmith Bridge Putney Bridge (although currently closed to traffic) Chelsea Bridge Battersea Bridge So that's ten road crossings, and even then most of these are congested at rush hour. The A316 bridge is Twickenham Bridge in case you never knew. It's a shame that they don't build a new Albert Bridge that can hold the weight of motor traffic, would help the Battersea area out a lot. |
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Post by sid on Aug 5, 2014 15:40:05 GMT
Bang on, it would be horrific trying to use the Blackwall Tunnel if those rail options were not there and the Blackwall Tunnel is only going to get worse irrespective of what rail options are available - a road crossing is inevitable and is needed sharpish otherwise large areas either side of the tunnel will grind to a halt. Just to be awkward you can turn the argument on its head and say that *not* expanding road capacity across the river is the right thing to do. Yes the Blackwall Tunnel route is ghastly in the peak but the sheer awfulness acts as a restraint on further road traffic growth in the areas north and south of the tunnel. Traffic therefore self regulates and goes elsewhere or doesn't go by road at all. As soon as you increase cross river road capacity, doesn't matter where really, then you will get an exponential growth in road traffic / congestion / pollution across a wider area of SE and East London. You need only look at the DLR to Woolwich - that was full within 6 months and has had to have 3 car trains most of the time. If they could squeeze more trains down there I'm sure they would. One really striking option would be to make the proposed GOBLIN tunnel link from Barking to Thamesmead a combined rail / bus / cycle tunnel link. If you wanted to be helpful to local deliveries then perhaps hybrid or fully electric vans and taxis could be allowed through too. Therefore only "greener" modes could get through. It would be fascinating to see what TfL could do with the bus network if that was in place. If you built the rail link properly you could also run freight through it too. That would take pressure off the West and North London Lines making more room for Overground services. I would say that not expanding road capacity was the right thing to do. The congestion at the Blackwall Tunnel acts as a sort of 'congestion charge', remove it and you just encourage more people to use their car and before long we're back at square one. Adding a bus and cycle tunnel would be good but other than allowing emergency vehicles to use it I think that should be it. |
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Post by LX09FBJ on Aug 5, 2014 15:52:56 GMT
I think that more river crossings are needed in the East, given that there's only four (Rotherhithe Tunnel, Blackwall Tunnel, Woolwich Ferry and Dartford Crossing) of which only the Blackwall Tunnel has a bus service and all four are always congested and the Woolwich Ferry is often boats short. I personally think that all four should be built, as this would ease pressure on the existing and limited infrastructure currently in place. At the moment Romford and Bexleyheath seem so far away, yet if a Belvedere Bridge was built, the distance would shrink to a distance which would viable for one medium length bus route. In SW London we have (excluding rail bridges): Hampton Court Bridge Kingston Bridge Richmond Bridge A316 Bridge Chiswick Bridge Kew Bridge Hammersmith Bridge Putney Bridge (although currently closed to traffic) Chelsea Bridge Battersea Bridge So that's ten road crossings, and even then most of these are congested at rush hour. The A316 bridge is Twickenham Bridge in case you never knew. It's a shame that they don't build a new Albert Bridge that can hold the weight of motor traffic, would help the Battersea area out a lot. Didn't know about Twickenham Bridge I think that Hammersmith Bridge should be strengthened if possible, to allow the 33 and 72 at least to be double decked, and this relieve traffic from the other bridges in the area, as it would allow HGVs to cross. Alternatively, you could set a lower limit for HGVs, so the limit for PCVs could be increased. |
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