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Post by YY13VKP on Aug 31, 2023 19:59:42 GMT
Dee Road stand has gone I believe. I think a reroute of the R70 would be on the cards if that went DD. The Nurserylands is much more congested with parked cars than it was in LU Metrobus days. 490 should have been DD upon last contract renewal. 33 could use DD and that is up for tender soon. I don’t think Hammersmith Bridge is on the verge of reopening anytime soon. When it does the DD version could go along the N33 route giving the 220 a much needed helping hand between Hammersmith and Putney. Ironically it got single deckers displaced from a route that had a double deck conversion in the 407! But I do agree the 490 should be double decked. Perhaps the 493 could go there instead As long as it doesn’t shove the 493 into any traffic jams or hotspots, I’m not too familiar with the 490 terminal There are low trees coming in to the Pools on the Park car park which would prevent a decker from reaching there. I do agree though, the 490 and 493 should swap terminuses which would then enable the 490 to convert to double deck. I also wouldn't be surprised if the 490 got 2580-2587 from the 407 should they not be kept on it and Abellio retain the 490... |
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Post by gwiwer on Aug 31, 2023 20:37:24 GMT
Being local to the area and a bus user I don't think anyone is aware of this impending change and some will be caught out by it.
The 33 could usefully revert to deckers today and be re-visited when Hammersmith Bridge reopens. It is a busy route at almost all times with a high PVR because of the "need" for single-deck operation which is currently not a need at all. It doesn't serve Richmond station but does stop within a 2- 3 minute walk at Waitrose.
There are other options. It is possible to extend the Kew Retail Park service up to Kew Green at the cost of missing the terminal stop; I acknowledge this is quite well used compared with others on the extension but allows the option of two buses standing at Kew Green together which is not possible (but does happen unofficially) at the Retail Park. Kew Green is a congested area but this does plug the route into the 65 and 110 for onward links there.
Cutting any more buses from the Twickenham - Richmond leg is going to cause capacity issues and probably significant overloading at school and peak times. The comment about Strawberry Vale having a stub service is relevant but it's not the most-used part of the R68 route at all and the 33 also covers the busier Cross Deep end.
I would stand the R68 at Pools on the Park and R70 at Kew Retail Park whilst finding somewhere at the Nurserylands end for a stand to even out the service. Does it need to run the full current loop or can it terminate somewhere in Hanworth instead? The 111 covers half of the estate. The 490 is a long route which doesn't need to be any longer; if the R68 went to Pools then the 490 needs to go to a vacant stand such as East Sheen. Once again that cuts out the direct Richmond station link but it is within easy walking distance and other routes link Twickenham with Richmond station.
The 110 also needs to be revisited having been doubled in length and given a most indirect LOR at the last change. This was supposed to have seen the withdrawal of the 969 with the 110 covering its residential bits off the Chertsey Road but those can only be accessed westbound meaning an end-to-end route could not serve the area except by means of a double-run of well over a mile. So the 969 continues to run, the 110 had useful links cut and was diverted via parts of the Chertsey Road where it picks up no-one. It also suffers badly from the traffic over the Hammersmith leg it gained from the 391. I am of the opinion that the 110 and H22 changes should be undone although my comments about stand space at Manor Circus made above would apply should the H22 be returned to that area.
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Post by evergreenadam on Aug 31, 2023 20:43:56 GMT
Yeah, the Dee Road stand doesn't exist anymore. The only option would have been for the R70 to use the H37's stand on Lower Mortlake Road, although it would be likely be very difficult to fit 2 high frequency routes on that stand. The only other alternative would be for the R70 to run over the level crossing to the Queen's Road (Marshgate Primary School) stand, but that would probably not be feasible. Unfortunately, I think the volatility of North Sheen station's level crossing all but kills the idea of the R70 standing at Queen's Road. I think Kew Gardens Station is the next closest bus stand, but I'd imagine TfL would be hesitant to extend the R70 there for whatever reason. The level crossing on Manor Road is a nightmare and would destroy the reliability of a cross river bus route from Twickenham. Although a bus route along Manor Road is probably needed in some form to achieve any modal shift from the car journeys that use it to get to Sainsbury’s/Kew Retail Park and to avoid driving through Richmond town centre. I seem to remember issues with parked cars and buses getting stuck trying to access the Kew Gardens Station stand. The rail replacement bus services no longer serve the station directly for that reason. |
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Post by evergreenadam on Aug 31, 2023 20:53:55 GMT
Dee Road stand has gone I believe. I think a reroute of the R70 would be on the cards if that went DD. The Nurserylands is much more congested with parked cars than it was in LU Metrobus days. 490 should have been DD upon last contract renewal. 33 could use DD and that is up for tender soon. I don’t think Hammersmith Bridge is on the verge of reopening anytime soon. When it does the DD version could go along the N33 route giving the 220 a much needed helping hand between Hammersmith and Putney. Ironically it got single deckers displaced from a route that had a double deck conversion in the 407! But I do agree the 490 should be double decked. As long as it doesn’t shove the 493 into any traffic jams or hotspots, I’m not too familiar with the 490 terminal There are low trees coming in to the Pools on the Park car park which would prevent a decker from reaching there. I do agree though, the 490 and 493 should swap terminuses which would then enable the 490 to convert to double deck. I also wouldn't be surprised if the 490 got 2580-2587 from the 407 should they not be kept on it and Abellio retain the 490... There is no point double decking the 490, if it doesn’t serve Richmond Station since that is where the demand is coming from. You would actually make the existing situation worse by reducing capacity from Richmond Station towards Twickenham by taking out the highest frequency route. The outbound journey on the 490 from Richmond Bus Station towards Twickenham would only serve one bus stop in the town centre at Richmond Bus Station and maybe not even that as not all routes leaving the stand there are allowed to pick up for safety reasons. I believe that is the case for the 493 which has it’s first outbound stop in George Street. Secondly even if it could pick up on the stand, you would have two separate stops at Richmond Bus Station for buses towards Twickenham, which wouldn’t work and cause more safety issues. |
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Post by evergreenadam on Aug 31, 2023 20:59:58 GMT
Dee Road stand has gone I believe. I think a reroute of the R70 would be on the cards if that went DD. The Nurserylands is much more congested with parked cars than it was in LU Metrobus days. 490 should have been DD upon last contract renewal. 33 could use DD and that is up for tender soon. I don’t think Hammersmith Bridge is on the verge of reopening anytime soon. When it does the DD version could go along the N33 route giving the 220 a much needed helping hand between Hammersmith and Putney. I used to go to school on those LU Metrobuses on route R70, it was a blessed relief when they replaced the Darts that were overwhelmed in peak hours in both directions. I am quite surprised that it manages these days with single deckers x10mins in the peaks, but haven’t used it in the morning rush hour recently. |
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Post by evergreenadam on Aug 31, 2023 21:09:25 GMT
Being local to the area and a bus user I don't think anyone is aware of this impending change and some will be caught out by it. The 33 could usefully revert to deckers today and be re-visited when Hammersmith Bridge reopens. It is a busy route at almost all times with a high PVR because of the "need" for single-deck operation which is currently not a need at all. It doesn't serve Richmond station but does stop within a 2- 3 minute walk at Waitrose. There are other options. It is possible to extend the Kew Retail Park service up to Kew Green at the cost of missing the terminal stop; I acknowledge this is quite well used compared with others on the extension but allows the option of two buses standing at Kew Green together which is not possible (but does happen unofficially) at the Retail Park. Kew Green is a congested area but this does plug the route into the 65 and 110 for onward links there. Cutting any more buses from the Twickenham - Richmond leg is going to cause capacity issues and probably significant overloading at school and peak times. The comment about Strawberry Vale having a stub service is relevant but it's not the most-used part of the R68 route at all and the 33 also covers the busier Cross Deep end. I would stand the R68 at Pools on the Park and R70 at Kew Retail Park whilst finding somewhere at the Nurserylands end for a stand to even out the service. Does it need to run the full current loop or can it terminate somewhere in Hanworth instead? The 111 covers half of the estate. The 490 is a long route which doesn't need to be any longer; if the R68 went to Pools then the 490 needs to go to a vacant stand such as East Sheen. Once again that cuts out the direct Richmond station link but it is within easy walking distance and other routes link Twickenham with Richmond station. The 110 also needs to be revisited having been doubled in length and given a most indirect LOR at the last change. This was supposed to have seen the withdrawal of the 969 with the 110 covering its residential bits off the Chertsey Road but those can only be accessed westbound meaning an end-to-end route could not serve the area except by means of a double-run of well over a mile. So the 969 continues to run, the 110 had useful links cut and was diverted via parts of the Chertsey Road where it picks up no-one. It also suffers badly from the traffic over the Hammersmith leg it gained from the 391. I am of the opinion that the 110 and H22 changes should be undone although my comments about stand space at Manor Circus made above would apply should the H22 be returned to that area. The 110 does suffer from reliability issues but it has built up decent loadings on its direct Whitton to Richmond route - the H22 route to Richmond was very indirect. I’ve seen those new stops on the Chertsey Road being used and the direct Ivybridge/Cole Park to Richmond link is very welcome. The 110 is also very busy on Twickenham rugby match days from Richmond to Twickenham Stadium. So I would be reluctant to undo all of those changes, but the bits that don’t work such as the length of the 110 and the H22 reroute to West Middlesex Hospital instead of Richmond could be reviewed. I don’t think two bus routes are required between Twickenham and West Middlesex Hospital if the 267 runs reliably and is reinstated to x10mins. |
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Post by george on Aug 31, 2023 22:15:09 GMT
I'm just not sure whether deckers would be well used on the outer sections of route R70, and I also fear it would end up going to 5bph. However, route R70 would certainly be cheaper to deck than route 33, and will be retendered earlier. Mentioning retendering, I'm surprised TfL aren't waiting until then to implement these changes considering they come up together in about 9 months time. I'm also surprised these changes to routes R68/70 haven't been consulted on in a official consultation exercise before implemented. Very odd. I believe the R70 stand is going which maybe the reason for no consultation. |
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Post by londonbuses on Aug 31, 2023 22:34:45 GMT
I'm also surprised these changes to routes R68/70 haven't been consulted on in a official consultation exercise before implemented. Very odd. I believe the R70 stand is going which maybe the reason for no consultation. Surely this must be a temporary change, even if it for many years until the development is complete, as I believe a bus stand is planned within the new development. |
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Post by YX10FFN on Aug 31, 2023 22:36:41 GMT
IF this is true— what on earth??
So they can go ahead and do whatever they like without consultation? Richmond to Twickenham gets a FURTHER cut to buses on a stretch that was already missing the H22? There seems to be no logical explanation for this change anyway. The R68 is 9 miles long so well within reason for a suburban route and was operated fine for years before present reliability challenges.
Sincerely hope someone's pulling our leg on this.
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Post by cardinal on Sept 1, 2023 3:31:56 GMT
Dee Road stand has gone I believe. I think a reroute of the R70 would be on the cards if that went DD. The Nurserylands is much more congested with parked cars than it was in LU Metrobus days. 490 should have been DD upon last contract renewal. 33 could use DD and that is up for tender soon. I don’t think Hammersmith Bridge is on the verge of reopening anytime soon. When it does the DD version could go along the N33 route giving the 220 a much needed helping hand between Hammersmith and Putney. I used to go to school on those LU Metrobuses on route R70, it was a blessed relief when they replaced the Darts that were overwhelmed in peak hours in both directions. I am quite surprised that it manages these days with single deckers x10mins in the peaks, but haven’t used it in the morning rush hour recently. I also grew up using the 270/R70 ! Happy days when the Sunday service got revamped and FW put Ms out even on those days of the week. I also haven’t used the R70 at all recently so have to bow to local knowledge. But from what I remember between 7&8am those buses leaving Hampton were standing room only, often full.0 |
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Post by northlondon83 on Sept 1, 2023 6:30:41 GMT
I'm just not sure whether deckers would be well used on the outer sections of route R70, and I also fear it would end up going to 5bph. However, route R70 would certainly be cheaper to deck than route 33, and will be retendered earlier. Mentioning retendering, I'm surprised TfL aren't waiting until then to implement these changes considering they come up together in about 9 months time. I'm also surprised these changes to routes R68/70 haven't been consulted on in a official consultation exercise before implemented. Very odd. I agree. If they are true it's a very big cut for the R68 passengers which will impact quite a lot of people. Don't see what's wrong with keeping the routes as they are |
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Post by LD71YLO (BE37054) on Sept 1, 2023 6:36:37 GMT
Personally I'd still run the R68 as far as Richmond, but perhaps could be diverted to Pools on the Park, with the 490 being cut back to Richmond bus station and decked A bus stand should be provided at Richmond Station if this were to happen. As said above Richmond Bus Station is full. A stand would be created at Richmond Station by removing taxi rank spaces as suggested by myself and YX10FFN. |
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Post by LD71YLO (BE37054) on Sept 1, 2023 6:42:38 GMT
Actually, I believe (?) the R70 used to have very occasional double decker workings until about 2005, so decking the route should be a possibility. The R70 can be operated by double deckers, it’s just that residents in some big houses on Nightingale Road and Acacia Road didn’t want double deck buses going down their street. If that's the case, then could it not be diverted via the 111 route in that area? |
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Post by LD71YLO (BE37054) on Sept 1, 2023 6:46:33 GMT
I'm also surprised these changes to routes R68/70 haven't been consulted on in a official consultation exercise before implemented. Very odd. Presumably a temporary change during the construction works for the residential development on the Homebase site, so doesn’t need any consultation from TfL’s point of view. I think the provision of a bus stand was safeguarded in the proposed development given how tight things are for stand space in Richmond. Yeah, I imagine they simply didn't have anywhere else to put the R68 while the R70 moved to Kew Retail Park, so had to cut it back to Twickenham. The only other stand I can really think of is the old stand in Dee Road, but I don't think that's even there anymore? Yeah, the Dee Road stand doesn't exist anymore. The only option would have been for the R70 to use the H37's stand on Lower Mortlake Road, although it would be likely be very difficult to fit 2 high frequency routes on that stand. The only other alternative would be for the R70 to run over the level crossing to the Queen's Road (Marshgate Primary School) stand, but that would probably not be feasible. These would be very drastic temporary changes. The most sensible temporary choice would have been to reroute one of them to the Marshgate stand via the 33. |
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Post by LD71YLO (BE37054) on Sept 1, 2023 6:54:30 GMT
Yeah, the Dee Road stand doesn't exist anymore. The only option would have been for the R70 to use the H37's stand on Lower Mortlake Road, although it would be likely be very difficult to fit 2 high frequency routes on that stand. The only other alternative would be for the R70 to run over the level crossing to the Queen's Road (Marshgate Primary School) stand, but that would probably not be feasible. Unfortunately, I think the volatility of North Sheen station's level crossing all but kills the idea of the R70 standing at Queen's Road. I think Kew Gardens Station is the next closest bus stand, but I'd imagine TfL would be hesitant to extend the R70 there for whatever reason. It would be very unwise, as you said, to have a bus route run over that level crossing. I have, on many occasions, had to wait 10 minutes or even longer there. It is sometimes used by routes on short-term diversions but an alternative routing would need to be used for any longer-term diversion. I don't think sending either R route to Kew Gardens would be such a bad idea, but would require an extra bus so would be too expensive for TfL. Same goes for the Kew Green stand. |
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