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Post by lonmark on May 15, 2021 13:56:42 GMT
I'd wait for an official announcement. What is SE nine magazine anyway? It is to do with Eltham/New Eltham postcode SE9 area. |
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Post by danorak on May 15, 2021 14:45:59 GMT
I'd wait for an official announcement. What is SE nine magazine anyway? In their own words "London SE9's community magazine serving Eltham, Mottingham, New Eltham and Avery Hill. 11,500 copies distributed every month across SE9." My interpretation is that it might be a garbled version of what's in the Times today about a railways White Paper this week: "Ministers will pledge to introduce flexible rail season tickets, pay-as-you-go travel and enhanced compensation for delays as part of the biggest reform of the railway since privatisation almost three decades ago. The government will publish a white paper next week aimed at radically improving the day-to-day operation of the railway, signalling a break with Conservative policy introduced under John Major in 1993. Under the reforms, operation of the trains and tracks will be brought under the control of one new organisation... to combat criticism that the existing system is too fragmented. Crucially, the body will also be tasked with specifying new London-Overground-style “concession” agreements for each operator that will provide financial incentives for running services on time while penalising poor performance and dirty carriages." Certainly looks like a key week coming up whichever way you cut it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 19:57:27 GMT
How could TFL take over the Southeastern metro lines when they’re skint though? As much as I’d love them to.
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Post by danorak on May 15, 2021 21:56:36 GMT
How could TFL take over the Southeastern metro lines when they’re skint though? As much as I’d love them to. I would assume that it would be bound up in the Williams - Shapps review and any TfL bailout. I doubt the Department for Transport would just hand over the keys! That said, there's plenty of scope for increasing takings on the Southeastern metro network: fare evasion is rife. Andrew Gilligan is reported as having a hand in drafting later versions of the review so this sounds less surprising than it did this morning. Looks like Thursday's the day to watch. |
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Post by vjaska on May 15, 2021 22:13:07 GMT
How could TFL take over the Southeastern metro lines when they’re skint though? As much as I’d love them to. I would assume that it would be bound up in the Williams - Shapps review and any TfL bailout. I doubt the Department for Transport would just hand over the keys! That said, there's plenty of scope for increasing takings on the Southeastern metro network: fare evasion is rife. Andrew Gilligan is reported as having a hand in drafting later versions of the review so this sounds less surprising than it did this morning. Looks like Thursday's the day to watch. Anything that helps promote the fact an overhead station actually exists in Brixton would be great - whilst the tube station regularly pulls in over 30 million a year, the railway station hangs around the 1.2 million mark yet provides really useful links to Bromley & Orpington. If it's possible, I'd like some of the services to alternate between serving Victoria & serving Clapham Junction given the current Overground runs above Brixton Station without stopping. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 23:43:00 GMT
I would assume that it would be bound up in the Williams - Shapps review and any TfL bailout. I doubt the Department for Transport would just hand over the keys! That said, there's plenty of scope for increasing takings on the Southeastern metro network: fare evasion is rife. Andrew Gilligan is reported as having a hand in drafting later versions of the review so this sounds less surprising than it did this morning. Looks like Thursday's the day to watch. Anything that helps promote the fact an overhead station actually exists in Brixton would be great - whilst the tube station regularly pulls in over 30 million a year, the railway station hangs around the 1.2 million mark yet provides really useful links to Bromley & Orpington. If it's possible, I'd like some of the services to alternate between serving Victoria & serving Clapham Junction given the current Overground runs above Brixton Station without stopping. I’d like the 2tph via Herne Hill services that terminate at Bromley South that don’t continue to Orpington to be extended to Swanley. |
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Post by galwhv69 on May 16, 2021 0:09:11 GMT
I would assume that it would be bound up in the Williams - Shapps review and any TfL bailout. I doubt the Department for Transport would just hand over the keys! That said, there's plenty of scope for increasing takings on the Southeastern metro network: fare evasion is rife. Andrew Gilligan is reported as having a hand in drafting later versions of the review so this sounds less surprising than it did this morning. Looks like Thursday's the day to watch. Anything that helps promote the fact an overhead station actually exists in Brixton would be great - whilst the tube station regularly pulls in over 30 million a year, the railway station hangs around the 1.2 million mark yet provides really useful links to Bromley & Orpington. If it's possible, I'd like some of the services to alternate between serving Victoria & serving Clapham Junction given the current Overground runs above Brixton Station without stopping. The idea about alternating trains to CLJ would be good, however it would mean only 1tph to both Victoria & Clapham Junction off peak (as they run every 30 minutes instead of 15 during the peaks) which may not be enticing. As a side note, why do people wait 15+ minutes (incoming trains are usually delayed) for an SE train from Brixton to Victoria in the morning peak when the tube is much more frequent and takes the same amount of time? In both scenarios, unless changing for an outbound SE train if coming from Brixton SE, an interchange is required and there are gatelines at Victoria so it can't be a case of faredodging. |
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Post by vjaska on May 16, 2021 0:13:18 GMT
Anything that helps promote the fact an overhead station actually exists in Brixton would be great - whilst the tube station regularly pulls in over 30 million a year, the railway station hangs around the 1.2 million mark yet provides really useful links to Bromley & Orpington. If it's possible, I'd like some of the services to alternate between serving Victoria & serving Clapham Junction given the current Overground runs above Brixton Station without stopping. The idea about alternating trains to CLJ would be good, however it would mean only 1tph to both Victoria & Clapham Junction off peak (as they run every 30 minutes instead of 15 during the peaks) which may not be enticing. As a side note, why do people wait 15+ minutes (incoming trains are usually delayed) for an SE train from Brixton to Victoria in the morning peak when the tube is much more frequent and takes the same amount of time? In both scenarios, unless changing for an outbound SE train if coming from Brixton SE, an interchange is required and there are gatelines at Victoria so it can't be a case of faredodging. A fair point regarding the tph, could it be possible to go to 4tph with 2 to Victoria & 2 Clapham Junction or even worse case, 3 tph with 1 to Victoria and 2 to Clapham Junction or vice versa? As for why do people wait for it over the tube, I can only presume because the tube from Brixton during the peaks is ridiculously busy or they're not comfortable with the tube full stop, otherwise I'm as lost as you  |
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Post by galwhv69 on May 16, 2021 1:22:07 GMT
The idea about alternating trains to CLJ would be good, however it would mean only 1tph to both Victoria & Clapham Junction off peak (as they run every 30 minutes instead of 15 during the peaks) which may not be enticing. As a side note, why do people wait 15+ minutes (incoming trains are usually delayed) for an SE train from Brixton to Victoria in the morning peak when the tube is much more frequent and takes the same amount of time? In both scenarios, unless changing for an outbound SE train if coming from Brixton SE, an interchange is required and there are gatelines at Victoria so it can't be a case of faredodging. A fair point regarding the tph, could it be possible to go to 4tph with 2 to Victoria & 2 Clapham Junction or even worse case, 3 tph with 1 to Victoria and 2 to Clapham Junction or vice versa? As for why do people wait for it over the tube, I can only presume because the tube from Brixton during the peaks is ridiculously busy or they're not comfortable with the tube full stop, otherwise I'm as lost as you The trains leaving Brixton towards Victoria are also full and standing  I've made some proposals for service changes, trying to not create services with over or under capacity. PEAK Southern 1tph MKC – CLJ (current, no change) 1tph MKC – ORP This increases capacity along WLL and provides a direct link from NW & W London to SE London Southeastern 2tph CLJ – BMS 1tph VIC – BKJ 1tph VIC - ORP Makes sure that at least 2 trains go to both CLJ and VIC during peak. Orpington already has a good service to London so 2tph retained. BKJ has platform capacity as max 2 Southern trains use it an hourSWR 2tph TWI – VIC 2tph PMH - VIC Introduces new services creating links from South Western lines to Victoria. Also adds much needed capacity on both lines. In the case of the Twickenham service, it also improves peak time frequency as even large stations such as Putney only get 3tph towards Central London in the morning peakOFF PEAK Southern 1tph MKC – CLJ (current, no change) Off peak, so easy to change at CLJ as less passengersSoutheastern 1tph VIC – ORP 2tph CLJ – ORP Retains Victoria to Orpington link and creates new link to Clapham JunctionSWR 1tph TWI – VIC 1tph PMH - VIC Adds more capacity, however less as off peak |
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Post by YY13VKP on May 16, 2021 9:36:06 GMT
A fair point regarding the tph, could it be possible to go to 4tph with 2 to Victoria & 2 Clapham Junction or even worse case, 3 tph with 1 to Victoria and 2 to Clapham Junction or vice versa? As for why do people wait for it over the tube, I can only presume because the tube from Brixton during the peaks is ridiculously busy or they're not comfortable with the tube full stop, otherwise I'm as lost as you The trains leaving Brixton towards Victoria are also full and standing I've made some proposals for service changes, trying to not create services with over or under capacity. PEAK Southern 1tph MKC – CLJ (current, no change) 1tph MKC – ORP This increases capacity along WLL and provides a direct link from NW & W London to SE London Southeastern 2tph CLJ – BMS 1tph VIC – BKJ 1tph VIC - ORP Makes sure that at least 2 trains go to both CLJ and VIC during peak. Orpington already has a good service to London so 2tph retained. BKJ has platform capacity as max 2 Southern trains use it an hourSWR 2tph TWI – VIC 2tph PMH - VIC Introduces new services creating links from South Western lines to Victoria. Also adds much needed capacity on both lines. In the case of the Twickenham service, it also improves peak time frequency as even large stations such as Putney only get 3tph towards Central London in the morning peakOFF PEAK Southern 1tph MKC – CLJ (current, no change) Off peak, so easy to change at CLJ as less passengersSoutheastern 1tph VIC – ORP 2tph CLJ – ORP Retains Victoria to Orpington link and creates new link to Clapham JunctionSWR 1tph TWI – VIC 1tph PMH - VIC Adds more capacity, however less as off peakIt's certainly possible to have a West London Line service to run to Orpington in the peaks, I don't think Southern would operate this though - Southeastern have dual voltage 375/6 and 377/5's that they could easily run this service with. I also like the idea of a 2tph Southeastern service to Clapham Junction and this could also be useful for people who live on the Chatham Main line to connect onto SWR services towards Waterloo and the South West. Currently the only way to reach SWML stations from anywhere north of Shortlands is to go via Herne Hill and Wimbledon. Southeastern could also use Platform 17 at Clapham Junction to run a service there. However, the idea to send SWR services into London Victoria would not work. I don't believe there is a way you can actually cross over from the SWML onto the BML at Clapham Junction. There is a spur that leads off towards Stewarts Lane junction and into the eastern side of London Victoria but I don't think you can access it from the SWML. The Twickenham service would have to reverse at Latchmere and Stewarts Lane to access Victoria unless you ran it via Kingston, that in itself wouldn't be feasible. Sending additional SWR services into Victoria would be a nightmare for train planners as it would create issues with platforming capacity at Victoria (which is already busy as it is throughout the day let alone the peaks). I also don't see a need for an SWR Portsmouth Harbour to London Victoria service. It might be quicker to get to Portsmouth via the SWML but if Southern already run there from Victoria, what's the point? Anyone who wants to travel to Portsmouth could either change at Clapham Junction or travel via Horsham. |
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Post by galwhv69 on May 16, 2021 10:05:08 GMT
The trains leaving Brixton towards Victoria are also full and standing I've made some proposals for service changes, trying to not create services with over or under capacity. PEAK Southern 1tph MKC – CLJ (current, no change) 1tph MKC – ORP This increases capacity along WLL and provides a direct link from NW & W London to SE London Southeastern 2tph CLJ – BMS 1tph VIC – BKJ 1tph VIC - ORP Makes sure that at least 2 trains go to both CLJ and VIC during peak. Orpington already has a good service to London so 2tph retained. BKJ has platform capacity as max 2 Southern trains use it an hourSWR 2tph TWI – VIC 2tph PMH - VIC Introduces new services creating links from South Western lines to Victoria. Also adds much needed capacity on both lines. In the case of the Twickenham service, it also improves peak time frequency as even large stations such as Putney only get 3tph towards Central London in the morning peakOFF PEAK Southern 1tph MKC – CLJ (current, no change) Off peak, so easy to change at CLJ as less passengersSoutheastern 1tph VIC – ORP 2tph CLJ – ORP Retains Victoria to Orpington link and creates new link to Clapham JunctionSWR 1tph TWI – VIC 1tph PMH - VIC Adds more capacity, however less as off peakIt's certainly possible to have a West London Line service to run to Orpington in the peaks, I don't think Southern would operate this though - Southeastern have dual voltage 375/6 and 377/5's that they could easily run this service with. I also like the idea of a 2tph Southeastern service to Clapham Junction and this could also be useful for people who live on the Chatham Main line to connect onto SWR services towards Waterloo and the South West. Currently the only way to reach SWML stations from anywhere north of Shortlands is to go via Herne Hill and Wimbledon. Southeastern could also use Platform 17 at Clapham Junction to run a service there. However, the idea to send SWR services into London Victoria would not work. I don't believe there is a way you can actually cross over from the SWML onto the BML at Clapham Junction. There is a spur that leads off towards Stewarts Lane junction and into the eastern side of London Victoria but I don't think you can access it from the SWML. The Twickenham service would have to reverse at Latchmere and Stewarts Lane to access Victoria unless you ran it via Kingston, that in itself wouldn't be feasible. Sending additional SWR services into Victoria would be a nightmare for train planners as it would create issues with platforming capacity at Victoria (which is already busy as it is throughout the day let alone the peaks). I also don't see a need for an SWR Portsmouth Harbour to London Victoria service. It might be quicker to get to Portsmouth via the SWML but if Southern already run there from Victoria, what's the point? Anyone who wants to travel to Portsmouth could either change at Clapham Junction or travel via Horsham. From CLJ (platforms 1-7 only), go to Ludgate Junction, then Pouparts Junction, Battersea Reversible, Battersea Pier Junction. The SWR services would go into the existing platform ysed by the Bromley South/Orpington services. The PMH trains are there as I understand there can be issues with capacity along the route, and they would go to VIC where the platform capacity is which would also mean a change is not required at CLJ |
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Post by greenboy on May 16, 2021 13:04:00 GMT
It's certainly possible to have a West London Line service to run to Orpington in the peaks, I don't think Southern would operate this though - Southeastern have dual voltage 375/6 and 377/5's that they could easily run this service with. I also like the idea of a 2tph Southeastern service to Clapham Junction and this could also be useful for people who live on the Chatham Main line to connect onto SWR services towards Waterloo and the South West. Currently the only way to reach SWML stations from anywhere north of Shortlands is to go via Herne Hill and Wimbledon. Southeastern could also use Platform 17 at Clapham Junction to run a service there. However, the idea to send SWR services into London Victoria would not work. I don't believe there is a way you can actually cross over from the SWML onto the BML at Clapham Junction. There is a spur that leads off towards Stewarts Lane junction and into the eastern side of London Victoria but I don't think you can access it from the SWML. The Twickenham service would have to reverse at Latchmere and Stewarts Lane to access Victoria unless you ran it via Kingston, that in itself wouldn't be feasible. Sending additional SWR services into Victoria would be a nightmare for train planners as it would create issues with platforming capacity at Victoria (which is already busy as it is throughout the day let alone the peaks). I also don't see a need for an SWR Portsmouth Harbour to London Victoria service. It might be quicker to get to Portsmouth via the SWML but if Southern already run there from Victoria, what's the point? Anyone who wants to travel to Portsmouth could either change at Clapham Junction or travel via Horsham. From CLJ (platforms 1-7 only), go to Ludgate Junction, then Pouparts Junction, Battersea Reversible, Battersea Pier Junction. The SWR services would go into the existing platform ysed by the Bromley South/Orpington services. The PMH trains are there as I understand there can be issues with capacity along the route, and they would go to VIC where the platform capacity is which would also mean a change is not required at CLJ MKC-ORP would certainly be very useful, it would also reduce the number of people changing at Denmark Hill where it can get crowded. I suppose it all comes down to track capacity. |
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Post by route53 on May 16, 2021 13:36:45 GMT
I do think there could be more SE/NW London rail links but it’s where to fit them into the timetable.
I think cross South London services would also be a big win, we sort of have this already with the Victoria to Gravesend via Bexleyheath line service, it’s amazing how difficult it would be to get from Camberwell to Woolwich if it weren’t for that service (I know there’s the 177 to Peckham but that can get very crowded)
It would be good if there could be Victoria services from the Woolwich and Sidcup lines also but I doubt that it would be popular as Charing Cross is still the preferred terminal especially on the Woolwich line
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Post by wirewiper on May 16, 2021 14:37:01 GMT
I do think there could be more SE/NW London rail links but it’s where to fit them into the timetable. I think cross South London services would also be a big win, we sort of have this already with the Victoria to Gravesend via Bexleyheath line service, it’s amazing how difficult it would be to get from Camberwell to Woolwich if it weren’t for that service (I know there’s the 177 to Peckham but that can get very crowded) It would be good if there could be Victoria services from the Woolwich and Sidcup lines also but I doubt that it would be popular as Charing Cross is still the preferred terminal especially on the Woolwich line The big issue is capacity at junctions - too many conflicting moves and can become difficult to timetable enough trains to offer sufficient capacity (that may be less of an issue going forward but there will still be a sizeable midweek commute). You also have a service that is liable to fall apart more quickly when anything goes wrong. Operationally, the ideal is to have a service which keeps the number of point movements and conflicting train movements to a minimum. |
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Post by 700101 on May 16, 2021 21:54:42 GMT
Will wait for a official announcement, but I can see SE keeping one of the Dartford routes under there operation to keep up driver knowledge for there mainline drivers when services divert via Dartford, which in my opinion I can see them keeping services via Sidcup also this could have the Vic-Dartford services running via Sidcup instead of Bexleyheath. And keeping SE/TL as the only operators to run beyond Dartford also I do wonder if this could lead to changes to TL services so TfL can simplify routes via Greenwich/Woolwich. Also this could lead to the stopping services via Kent House to all run to Orpington again and have TL run 4tph to/from Sevenoaks via Swanley.
Will be interesting to see what changes could be made
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