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Post by COBO on Nov 13, 2016 12:41:20 GMT
Aren't 724, 725 and 726 non London routes. I think thank the 600 series should be for express routes and the school routes should have a S prefix like for example the 640 should become S140. The original 700 series were express Greenline services to central London, which was all part of London Transport So the 724 was originally a London Transport route? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 12:49:38 GMT
I would still love to see, simply from a modern point of view, a bus network where it looked like a tidy, thought out process which saw routes carefully planned but that is a pipe dream. Though such is my desire to see what it would look like now I might design or list routes which I would number (assuming no actual route changes) if I were tasked with designing it. Watch this space! It's an eye opener, certainly from my point of view, hearing about the history of some of the routes which I was previously ignorant to! Thanks all that posted about that! I've been through two iterations of network planning. The first one was when Tyne and Wear PTE progressively reorganised the bus network in Tyne and Wear to link in to the Metro system as it opened in phases from 1980 to 1984. There was a progressive tidying and renumbering of routes with each of the districts in the metropolitan area having their own logical structure 1-99 Newcastle & Gateshead locals 100-199 Sunderland locals 200-299 Cross boundary services into NE Country Durham from Sunderland (by and large) 300-399 North Tyneside services 400-499 Cross boundary services into SE Northumberland 500-599 South Tyneside services 600-699 Gateshead orbital / long distance services 700-799 Longer distance services into County Durham X prefix - express / limited stop services Even in that rejigged structure there were exceptions and numbers that were long established and not changed. I responded to all the consultations and even had an "audience" with senior PTE managers. Quite what they thought of this teenage oik questioning their plans I don't know. They got their revenge later when I ended having a placement with them and doing bus service planning.   The second phase has lasted since 1986 and deregulation. Initially quite a lot stayed the same with only limited changes. Operators tried to seal up networks and introduce new minibus services to fill in any perceived gaps and to try new things. Busways did the most of this but many services did not last more than a couple of years. British Bus (later Arriva) did the least and Go Ahead Northern experimented a bit and adopted local identities which much later morphed into route level branding. Stagecoach and Arriva have never done much by way of branded marketing except in very limited cases. Only in recent times have Arriva applied Max and Sapphire in the North East. We have yet to have a Stagecoach Gold route. Where we have now got to is almost a wholesale abandonment of the integrated numbering structure. Almost every service has changed except some of the Newcastle and Gateshead locals where you can see almost identical routes. However the local numbers in North Tyneside, South Tyneside and Sunderland have all been renumbered between 1 and 100 so you now multiple instances of the same number being used across Tyne and Wear for vastly different services. Almost all the networks have been stripped of marginal services that provided local journeys including long standing routes back to the 30s and 40s. The "core network" treatment has been applied by all the main operators to strip out overlapping routes and weld together bits of routes. There have also been two major bits of progressive restructuring to serve developments - one for the Metrocentre shopping centre in Gateshead and the other for business parks in North Tyneside (Quorum, Balliol and Cobalt). The Metrocentre has had the biggest impact on both local and long distance routes with many areas now having direct links. That's the "market" in operation by and large. TfL would probably have taken 2 years to consult to create the route structure at the Metrocentre. What has happened is that places like South Shields and Sunderland have seen their route numbers go round in a big circle from local numbers in corporation days to an integrated structure and back to local numbers on a commercial basis. The locals who *have* to use buses have had to cope with these changes but I expect many people have simply given up as networks have kept changing and changing and changing for the last 30 years. Stagecoach's local services in Newcastle on the most profitable corridors have seen least change since 1986 but just about everything else has been altered. I preferred the integrated structure as it was the more comprehensive service offer. Thanks for the insight there, always liked the idea of planning myself, although I'm sure for several reasons (budget, routeing, vehicle spec and other constraints) it must be a headache! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 13:19:37 GMT
It had actually crossed my mind before that TfL might do something with the letter routes (prefix ones). They did with the suffix ones. To me a letter is a letter whether it be at the start or finish of the route. Thing is, I think suffix letters are actually clearer if used properly (i.e as long as the deviation is only very small - bigger differences need their own number). It also frees up some numbers for use elsewhere. I know many disagree but I can as some merit to it if used strictly. What was the last suffix? Am I right in thinking it was the 77A? Also good shout on the 'R' routes - I had always assumed 'O' wasn't used as it looked like a zero and may cause confusion that way (a la no 'I' or 'O' reg cars in the number plate system of old)........ I do like the idea of a main number, with a corridor (in terms of line of route) number following the same pattern, such as 53/453, 58/158, 36/436 etc. This seems clear and makes things easier to remember. One I was told about years ago was the 93/293/393 corridor, one for me to visit the Ian Armstrong site methinks : ) Totally agree about the 'corridor' numbers you mention but my concern with suffixes is that London doesn't really need them in the same scale rural routes use them. As you are probably already aware on the 84/84A most buses (84) would start and finish at St.Albans, with the suffix continuing on as far as Luton. On country routes the suffix often denotes a rare deviation from the main route at certain times. Since London's buses generally run whole length of route at all times of operation (save for booked short workings and contingency for delays, diversions etc) I am not convinced suffix routes should ever be used again in London in its current form. I there ever was a possibility to use suffix routes, then maybe 'usual' event diversions could be used with existing buses. As a west London boy I'll use examples like QPR match days where we have the 228 running direct to/from Shepherds Bush along the Uxbridge Road and 283 direct along the Wood Lane. You could have 228A and 283A for these deviations? You also have Wembley with several diversions and these things together would be an interesting sight. I suspect TfL haven't done this because of costs* required to introduce blinds, flag tiles and info at bus stops... not to mention that as they are local variations coupled with iBus announcements, locals would understand the situation when the bus deviates, but it would look tidier IMO than current situation of the 228, 283 et al stopping at bus stops with no matching tiles! *though I can't imagine the costs being prohibitive in these cases. |
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Post by John tuthill on Nov 13, 2016 13:58:55 GMT
The original 700 series were express Greenline services to central London, which was all part of London Transport So the 724 was originally a London Transport route? When it operated as a 'GreenLine' route. HW to RF The original bus numbering scheme is below 1-199 Central DD routes 200-299 Central SD routes 290-299 Central Night routes 300-399 Country North 400-499 Country South 599-5xx 600-6xx Trolleybuses 701-7xx 'Green Line' |
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Post by lonmark on Nov 13, 2016 14:11:49 GMT
I think....
Route P4 should become 454
Route P5 should become 435
Why? because none of P4/P5 go anyway near Peckham at all
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Post by COBO on Nov 13, 2016 15:39:28 GMT
223 > H15
251 > E12
288 > E13
303 > E14
305 > E15
395 > H16
E3 > 303
E5 > 305
E6 > 306
H12 > 278
H13 > 373
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 17:03:49 GMT
223 > H15 251 > E12 288 > E13 303 > E14 305 > E15 395 > H16 E3 > 303 E5 > 305 E6 > 306 H12 > 278 H13 > 373 Agree with a lot of your thinking, was going to ask what about 278 when I realised there isn't one! Pretty shocking considering the prefixes currently running around such as those you mention and that it seems to have been unused since 2004! A lot of consensus around the E3... as my local route I really do wish that had its own, non-prefix number. |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 13, 2016 17:09:35 GMT
Thanks for the insight there, always liked the idea of planning myself, although I'm sure for several reasons (budget, routeing, vehicle spec and other constraints) it must be a headache! I came up with a scheme for improved routes in parts of eastern Gateshead. It had to be resource neutral so I proposed some limited cuts on one corridor beside a Metro line to free up the resources. Unfortunately it didn't proceed at the time as the County Council (who controlled the PTE) wouldn't countenance any cuts as they were campaigning against Met county abolition and bus deregulation. However after deregulation two of my routes (88 and 90) did come into being as secured services and were run by my favourite independent (OK Motor Services) on contract. Ned Basher was good enough to take a snap of buses on both routes and here it is 
OK Motor Services ex-A1 Service Leyland Atlantean / Alexander TSD611S & ex-Ribble Leyland Atlantean / ECW RFR418P by Ned Basher, on Flickr |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 17:12:40 GMT
Thanks for the insight there, always liked the idea of planning myself, although I'm sure for several reasons (budget, routeing, vehicle spec and other constraints) it must be a headache! I came up with a scheme for improved routes in parts of eastern Gateshead. It had to be resource neutral so I proposed some limited cuts on one corridor beside a Metro line to free up the resources. Unfortunately it didn't proceed at the time as the County Council (who controlled the PTE) wouldn't countenance any cuts as they were campaigning against Met country abolition and bus deregulation. However after deregulation two of my routes (88 and 90) did come into being as secured services and were run by my favourite independent (OK Motor Services) on contract. Ned Basher was good enough to take a snap of buses on both routes and here it is
OK Motor Services ex-A1 Service Leyland Atlantean / Alexander TSD611S & ex-Ribble Leyland Atlantean / ECW RFR418P by Ned Basher, on Flickr Nice! (Are those windows really big or is the bus really short? 😂) |
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Post by vjaska on Nov 13, 2016 17:14:54 GMT
I came up with a scheme for improved routes in parts of eastern Gateshead. It had to be resource neutral so I proposed some limited cuts on one corridor beside a Metro line to free up the resources. Unfortunately it didn't proceed at the time as the County Council (who controlled the PTE) wouldn't countenance any cuts as they were campaigning against Met country abolition and bus deregulation. However after deregulation two of my routes (88 and 90) did come into being as secured services and were run by my favourite independent (OK Motor Services) on contract. Ned Basher was good enough to take a snap of buses on both routes and here it is
OK Motor Services ex-A1 Service Leyland Atlantean / Alexander TSD611S & ex-Ribble Leyland Atlantean / ECW RFR418P by Ned Basher, on Flickr Nice! (Are those windows really big or is the bus really short? 😂) The windows are long on those particular Atlanteans - a bus I've yet to ride funnily enough. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 17:22:17 GMT
So the 724 was originally a London Transport route? When it operated as a 'GreenLine' route. HW to RF The original bus numbering scheme is below 1-199 Central DD routes 200-299 Central SD routes 290-299 Central Night routes 300-399 Country North 400-499 Country South 599-5xx 600-6xx Trolleybuses 701-7xx 'Green Line' Interesting, thanks for the link! Crazy to see all the routes that have the same numbers today! |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 13, 2016 17:24:25 GMT
Nice! (Are those windows really big or is the bus really short? 😂) Some operators - Edinburgh Corporation, Greater Glasgow PTE and Tyne and Wear PTE (to give their old names [1]) - opted for what is called the Panoramic window style on Alexander bodies. That's what's on the bus on the left. Needless to say I travelled on lots of such Atlanteans in Tyne and Wear. Two photos, from Newcastle and South Shields, also showing the old numbering system. 
Busways 147 1 Pilgrim St Newcastle by plcd1, on Flickr 
Busways 281 502 Chichester by plcd1, on Flickr [1] now Lothian Buses, First Glasgow and Stagecoach Busways |
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Post by SILENCED on Nov 14, 2016 1:39:44 GMT
The original 700 series were express Greenline services to central London, which was all part of London Transport So the 724 was originally a London Transport route? Yes |
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Post by sid on Nov 14, 2016 7:12:37 GMT
I think.... Route P4 should become 454Route P5 should become 435Why? because none of P4/P5 go anyway near Peckham at all I would agree with those, whilst on one hand it seems pointless to renumber them just for the sake of it, the P prefix really has no relevance at all. |
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Post by danorak on Nov 14, 2016 11:08:12 GMT
Nice! (Are those windows really big or is the bus really short? 😂) Some operators - Edinburgh Corporation, Greater Glasgow PTE and Tyne and Wear PTE (to give their old names [1]) - opted for what is called the Panoramic window style on Alexander bodies. That's what's on the bus on the left. Needless to say I travelled on lots of such Atlanteans in Tyne and Wear. Some of the Glasgow panoramic Atlanteans made it to London in the early days of tendering, although they were well past their best. London Country certainly used them for a while on the 51. |
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