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Post by vjaska on May 24, 2015 21:15:28 GMT
The 142 should be converted to 24 Hours giving Watford a night service, I'm surprised this was not in the consultation. Passengers would have the Northern and Jubilee Lines to connect them to the 142 and already have several night routes such as the 189/266/N5/N16/N98/N113, so this would be a simple and effective idea. I agree Watford Junction to Edgware, I'm not sure it needs to go to Brent Cross though. Doesn't Brent Cross open late on certain days?
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Post by jay38a on May 24, 2015 21:40:47 GMT
I agree Watford Junction to Edgware, I'm not sure it needs to go to Brent Cross though. Doesn't Brent Cross open late on certain days? Nope standard closing time bar Sunday's is 8pm for shops and 9pm for food
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Post by thesquirrels on May 24, 2015 22:21:49 GMT
The 142 should be converted to 24 Hours giving Watford a night service, I'm surprised this was not in the consultation. Passengers would have the Northern and Jubilee Lines to connect them to the 142 and already have several night routes such as the 189/266/N5/N16/N98/N113, so this would be a simple and effective idea. I agree Watford Junction to Edgware, I'm not sure it needs to go to Brent Cross though. A quick look at the timetable suggests a 29-30 minute run time for the first bus of the morning from Watford to Edgware, so for a 30 minute service you'd need a night PVR of three and a 15 minute layover which seems a bit wasteful. The full route is 50 minutes and would only need one more bus with a 10 minute layover. That said, the observations I've made of buses on the A5 through Colindale etc in the small hours suggest to me that even the N16 in its current form is generous. Plenty of demand south of Staples Corner but West Hendon/Colindale/Burnt Oak are dead as a doorknob at night. In theory the most 'efficient' way of doing this would be to tack another two/three buses onto the N16 PVR and run that through from Edgware to Watford. That would cover 95% of the 142 route in any case. But the route is a bit awkward in running every 20 minutes, which leaves the option of running the whole service through (overkill), a 20-40 pattern (not desirable) or hourly (tidy, low cost, but hourly night routes are more or less out of the question now. For 'the shires' it might be worth an exception, though.)
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Post by rmz19 on May 24, 2015 23:55:44 GMT
I agree Watford Junction to Edgware, I'm not sure it needs to go to Brent Cross though. A quick look at the timetable suggests a 29-30 minute run time for the first bus of the morning from Watford to Edgware, so for a 30 minute service you'd need a night PVR of three and a 15 minute layover which seems a bit wasteful. The full route is 50 minutes and would only need one more bus with a 10 minute layover. That said, the observations I've made of buses on the A5 through Colindale etc in the small hours suggest to me that even the N16 in its current form is generous. Plenty of demand south of Staples Corner but West Hendon/Colindale/Burnt Oak are dead as a doorknob at night. In theory the most 'efficient' way of doing this would be to tack another two/three buses onto the N16 PVR and run that through from Edgware to Watford. That would cover 95% of the 142 route in any case. But the route is a bit awkward in running every 20 minutes, which leaves the option of running the whole service through (overkill), a 20-40 pattern (not desirable) or hourly (tidy, low cost, but hourly night routes are more or less out of the question now. For 'the shires' it might be worth an exception, though.) An issue with the N16 extended to Watford is whether it would be useful for passengers or not, I doubt a single night route out of Central London all the way to Watford would be desirable. Running time would be a concern, the length of the A5 with the 142 route would be drastically long. I also had some ideas for a few Central London night routes to be extended to Watford, but now seeing it in this perspective I wouldn't say it's wise. Surely a 24 Hour 142 would suffice, and if overbussing part of the A5 is such a concern then the N16's frequency could be reduced to every 30 mins, or an alternate journey system is adopted with 2 BPH continuing on to Edgware and 1 BPH terminating at Cricklewood.
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Post by thesquirrels on May 24, 2015 23:56:49 GMT
A quick look at the timetable suggests a 29-30 minute run time for the first bus of the morning from Watford to Edgware, so for a 30 minute service you'd need a night PVR of three and a 15 minute layover which seems a bit wasteful. The full route is 50 minutes and would only need one more bus with a 10 minute layover. That said, the observations I've made of buses on the A5 through Colindale etc in the small hours suggest to me that even the N16 in its current form is generous. Plenty of demand south of Staples Corner but West Hendon/Colindale/Burnt Oak are dead as a doorknob at night. In theory the most 'efficient' way of doing this would be to tack another two/three buses onto the N16 PVR and run that through from Edgware to Watford. That would cover 95% of the 142 route in any case. But the route is a bit awkward in running every 20 minutes, which leaves the option of running the whole service through (overkill), a 20-40 pattern (not desirable) or hourly (tidy, low cost, but hourly night routes are more or less out of the question now. For 'the shires' it might be worth an exception, though.) An issue with the N16 extended to Watford is whether it would be useful for passengers or not, I doubt a single night route out of Central London all the way to Watford would be desirable. Running time would be a concern, the length of the A5 with the 142 route would be drastically long. I also had some ideas for a few Central London night routes to be extended to Watford, but now seeing it in this perspective I wouldn't say it's wise. Surely a 24 Hour 142 would suffice, and if overbussing part of the A5 is such a concern then the N16's frequency could be reduced to every 30 mins, or alternate journeys could continue to Watford with 1 BPH terminating at Cricklewood and 2 BPH continuing on to Watford Junction. I'm not sure that route length would be as much of an issue with an extended N16 as it looks on paper. Yes, Watford is a long way out, certainly by virtue of being well into Hertfordshire, but Greater London isn't that vast from centre to edge on that north western side. The full route length would be 18 and a bit miles including the faffing around with gyratories in Watford and the double run at Edgware - there are longer night routes in London hitting more significant traffic hotspots, whereas the N16 is more or less open road save for Marble Arch and Edgware Road. The N9, N15, N47, N68 and N89 are all longer. In defending this I am drawing away from the objective of the discussion which is Night Bus routes that complement the tube network, to that end the 142 would do the job fine. But I do think except for departures northbound from Edgware/Stanmore stations between 0100-0300 the buses would basically be carrying fresh air. It is an expensive way of meeting a need without a very strong case, e.g. to get people outside the Greater London area home. Nice as it would be to have.
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Post by rmz19 on May 25, 2015 0:49:23 GMT
An issue with the N16 extended to Watford is whether it would be useful for passengers or not, I doubt a single night route out of Central London all the way to Watford would be desirable. Running time would be a concern, the length of the A5 with the 142 route would be drastically long. I also had some ideas for a few Central London night routes to be extended to Watford, but now seeing it in this perspective I wouldn't say it's wise. Surely a 24 Hour 142 would suffice, and if overbussing part of the A5 is such a concern then the N16's frequency could be reduced to every 30 mins, or alternate journeys could continue to Watford with 1 BPH terminating at Cricklewood and 2 BPH continuing on to Watford Junction. I'm not sure that route length would be as much of an issue with an extended N16 as it looks on paper. Yes, Watford is a long way out, certainly by virtue of being well into Hertfordshire, but Greater London isn't that vast from centre to edge on that north western side. The full route length would be 18 and a bit miles including the faffing around with gyratories in Watford and the double run at Edgware - there are longer night routes in London hitting more significant traffic hotspots, whereas the N16 is more or less open road save for Marble Arch and Edgware Road. The N9, N15, N47, N68 and N89 are all longer. In defending this I am drawing away from the objective of the discussion which is Night Bus routes that complement the tube network, to that end the 142 would do the job fine. But I do think except for departures northbound from Edgware/Stanmore stations between 0100-0300 the buses would basically be carrying fresh air. It is an expensive way of meeting a need without a very strong case, e.g. to get people outside the Greater London area home. Nice as it would be to have. The length wouldn't be an issue indeed at just over 18 miles, which is perfectly fine. However I was referring to the journey time. Currently the N16 maxes out at just under an hour, I anticipate it would approximately take 30-35 mins to cover the 142's route between Edgware and Watford Junction at night. There is also the double-run at Edgware station which cannot be neglected for the sake of connecting with the Night Tube, this would be inconvenient as it's a very considerable double-run and perhaps adds an additonal 10 mins, all of this on top of the N16's running time of an hour would total to 100+ mins. This is quite long for night bus standards, the longest being the N136 at 98 mins max. I do defend a 24 Hour 142 as it's personally the most logical solution, and 1 BPH on the N16 curtailed to Cricklewood to prevent overkill along the A5.
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Post by vjaska on May 25, 2015 1:24:34 GMT
Doesn't Brent Cross open late on certain days? Nope standard closing time bar Sunday's is 8pm for shops and 9pm for food Thanks mate
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Post by thesquirrels on May 25, 2015 6:44:13 GMT
I'm not sure that route length would be as much of an issue with an extended N16 as it looks on paper. Yes, Watford is a long way out, certainly by virtue of being well into Hertfordshire, but Greater London isn't that vast from centre to edge on that north western side. The full route length would be 18 and a bit miles including the faffing around with gyratories in Watford and the double run at Edgware - there are longer night routes in London hitting more significant traffic hotspots, whereas the N16 is more or less open road save for Marble Arch and Edgware Road. The N9, N15, N47, N68 and N89 are all longer. In defending this I am drawing away from the objective of the discussion which is Night Bus routes that complement the tube network, to that end the 142 would do the job fine. But I do think except for departures northbound from Edgware/Stanmore stations between 0100-0300 the buses would basically be carrying fresh air. It is an expensive way of meeting a need without a very strong case, e.g. to get people outside the Greater London area home. Nice as it would be to have. The length wouldn't be an issue indeed at just over 18 miles, which is perfectly fine. However I was referring to the journey time. Currently the N16 maxes out at just under an hour, I anticipate it would approximately take 30-35 mins to cover the 142's route between Edgware and Watford Junction at night. There is also the double-run at Edgware station which cannot be neglected for the sake of connecting with the Night Tube, this would be inconvenient as it's a very considerable double-run and perhaps adds an additonal 10 mins, all of this on top of the N16's running time of an hour would total to 100+ mins. This is quite long for night bus standards, the longest being the N136 at 98 mins max. I do defend a 24 Hour 142 as it's personally the most logical solution, and 1 BPH on the N16 curtailed to Cricklewood to prevent overkill along the A5. I put the first trip on the N16 on a weekend night at 57 minutes, adding 31 minutes from Edgware to Watford on the 142, giving a combined total of 88 minutes, and that would be the slowest journey on a Friday/Saturday night - others would be up to 10 minutes faster. I don't consider the need to add 'double run' time in to that at Edgware as this is already naturally included in the two stretches looked at. I think in the spirit of the thread we are still looking at a route that can be fed into from the tube at Stanmore/Edgware to get folks back to Watford from town, so even a full runtime of up to 90 minutes isn't necessarily to be balked at if most won't be experiencing anything close to that. The issue to my mind would be if it was possible to run the route reliably at that length and not have buckets of people standing in the 3am cold at Stanmore Station while the due bus is still somewhere in Cricklewood. That may be the biggest problem to my mind and one that a 142 wouldn't have to deal with.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 7:15:25 GMT
If you say Watford should have nite bus what about Borehamwood area? Very populous it could do with something. I know the Thameslink service runs 24 hours but as im constantly being told not every1 can afford to go by rail though it is in Zone 6.mayb N292?
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Post by sid on May 25, 2015 8:21:21 GMT
If you say Watford should have nite bus what about Borehamwood area? Very populous it could do with something. I know the Thameslink service runs 24 hours but as im constantly being told not every1 can afford to go by rail though it is in Zone 6.mayb N292? Or perhaps extend the Fri/Sat night 307 to Edgware via the 107 route?
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Post by sid on May 25, 2015 8:26:41 GMT
I agree Watford Junction to Edgware, I'm not sure it needs to go to Brent Cross though. A quick look at the timetable suggests a 29-30 minute run time for the first bus of the morning from Watford to Edgware, so for a 30 minute service you'd need a night PVR of three and a 15 minute layover which seems a bit wasteful. The full route is 50 minutes and would only need one more bus with a 10 minute layover. That said, the observations I've made of buses on the A5 through Colindale etc in the small hours suggest to me that even the N16 in its current form is generous. Plenty of demand south of Staples Corner but West Hendon/Colindale/Burnt Oak are dead as a doorknob at night. In theory the most 'efficient' way of doing this would be to tack another two/three buses onto the N16 PVR and run that through from Edgware to Watford. That would cover 95% of the 142 route in any case. But the route is a bit awkward in running every 20 minutes, which leaves the option of running the whole service through (overkill), a 20-40 pattern (not desirable) or hourly (tidy, low cost, but hourly night routes are more or less out of the question now. For 'the shires' it might be worth an exception, though.) Maybe extend the half hourly 113 to Watford?
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Post by thesquirrels on May 25, 2015 8:37:58 GMT
A quick look at the timetable suggests a 29-30 minute run time for the first bus of the morning from Watford to Edgware, so for a 30 minute service you'd need a night PVR of three and a 15 minute layover which seems a bit wasteful. The full route is 50 minutes and would only need one more bus with a 10 minute layover. That said, the observations I've made of buses on the A5 through Colindale etc in the small hours suggest to me that even the N16 in its current form is generous. Plenty of demand south of Staples Corner but West Hendon/Colindale/Burnt Oak are dead as a doorknob at night. In theory the most 'efficient' way of doing this would be to tack another two/three buses onto the N16 PVR and run that through from Edgware to Watford. That would cover 95% of the 142 route in any case. But the route is a bit awkward in running every 20 minutes, which leaves the option of running the whole service through (overkill), a 20-40 pattern (not desirable) or hourly (tidy, low cost, but hourly night routes are more or less out of the question now. For 'the shires' it might be worth an exception, though.) Maybe extend the half hourly 113 to Edgware? I think you have the better idea here tbh - I'd had this idea in my mind that the N113 was a slower route than the N16 but a look at the timetables suggests it's about even. Plus, for anyone actually wanting to travel from Central out to Watford by bus it serves zone 1 more comprehensively than the N16 does. Though doing battle with the whole of the west end is more likely to mean buses are late further down the route - not so much of a problem when the route's passenger flow is town-to-suburbs but when folks are waiting at Edgware and Stanmore tubes for travel to Bushey and Watford it becomes more of an issue. Then again, some scope for making up time down the A41..
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Post by sid on May 25, 2015 9:01:54 GMT
Maybe extend the half hourly 113 to Edgware? I think you have the better idea here tbh - I'd had this idea in my mind that the N113 was a slower route than the N16 but a look at the timetables suggests it's about even. Plus, for anyone actually wanting to travel from Central out to Watford by bus it serves zone 1 more comprehensively than the N16 does. Though doing battle with the whole of the west end is more likely to mean buses are late further down the route - not so much of a problem when the route's passenger flow is town-to-suburbs but when folks are waiting at Edgware and Stanmore tubes for travel to Bushey and Watford it becomes more of an issue. Then again, some scope for making up time down the A41.. I meant to say extend the 113 to Watford of course lol. Yes once out of the West End on the 113 it should be a pretty quick journey especially at night.
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Post by maximus23 on May 25, 2015 9:02:50 GMT
If this is about getting a night bus to Watford, why has no one suggested an N18 extension from Harrow weal via the 258
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Post by thesquirrels on May 25, 2015 9:19:39 GMT
If this is about getting a night bus to Watford, why has no one suggested an N18 extension from Harrow weal via the 258 It wouldn't connect into any of the 24 hour tube lines outside zone 1 so you would be stuck with the bus the whole way. Also a good 15 minutes slower than a route heading via Edgware (e.g. the early Fri/Sat night N18 journeys take 78 minutes to get to Harrow Weald, fastest early/late 258 trips take 22 minutes from Harrow Weald to Watford Junction. 100 minutes is really pushing it if that is the only option on the table for getting back to Watford. Could be worth looking at again if the Met/Bakerloo go 24 hour.)
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