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Post by londonbuses2018 on May 31, 2018 12:50:10 GMT
I wounder how long it’s going to be before TFL Rail takes over Thameslink.
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Post by sid on May 31, 2018 12:54:10 GMT
I wounder how long it’s going to be before TFL Rail takes over Thameslink. Seriously? I wouldn't hold your breath.
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Post by snoggle on May 31, 2018 13:13:15 GMT
I wounder how long it’s going to be before TFL Rail takes over Thameslink. Never. GTR have got the contract to 2021. If DfT try to do the nasty on them the informed view is that GTR have so much ammo about DfT's cr*p decision making and other mistakes that they could make the DfT and the Secretary of State look ridiculous. This is why no one is resigning and no one is unduly fussed - no sign of Charles Horton tearing his clothes asunder and begging for forgiveness (to borrow a biblical analogy). Also the DfT know that any other operator would charge the DfT vastly more to run the service and there are no guarantees anything would be better. The fundamental problem now is getting drivers trained up on the routes they need to drive. As each day passes more of them become familiar with the routes thus reducing the need for multiple drivers per trip and freeing up "pilots" and managers to complete other training and thus get the service stabilised. It should actually come right in a few weeks time - it's just hell now. As has been mentioned elsewhere the actual timetable seems to work - Southern's performance is pretty decent for example and better than it was before the timetable change. Failing Grayling is completely opposed to more rail devolution even into the hands of Tory controlled boards or authorities. He stopped the West Midlands from gaining direct say over their local trains despite the new West Midlands Mayor being Conservative. He's also stopped Transport for the North from gaining full control of Northern and Transpennine franchises. And as for TfL then we've had an enormous spat between Failing Grayling and Mayor Khan for the entire time the former has been SoS for Transport. There is a tiny sign of a possible thawing about some very limited devolution of "difficult" services to TfL - Southern's West London Line service and the Moorgate - WGC / Hertford N services as part of the DfT's proposed restructuring of the GTR franchise for retendering in 2021. Don't expect anything to happen before then and I'm very sceptical about even these limited services passing to TfL. Let's be honest it makes very little sense to have TfL responsible for a service from Milton Keynes to East Croydon. The most likely consequence of a transfer would be the service being cut back to Watford Junction which would be unpopular with existing users but, of course, TfL would be blamed not the DfT so even there Mr Failing is slapping the Mayor and TfL round the chops with a bad news story. Grayling is a menace - in any rational government he'd have been booted out long ago but the government is so tied up with Brexit that no other policy areas are receiving any attention in Cabinet which means Grayling's chaos can continue unabated.
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Post by 700101 on May 31, 2018 13:41:38 GMT
I wounder how long it’s going to be before TFL Rail takes over Thameslink. Taking over the whole franchise is 100% unlikely, GTR operate deep in to Bedfordshire, Hertfordshire, Kent, Sussex, Norfolk etc. The only services they could realistically take over will be the Moorgate services. Another service they could take over would be the Sutton Loop but having them terminate at London Blackfriars and having 4tph via both Wimbledon & Mitcham Junction, MPs down the Sutton Loop didn’t like this idea when it was proposed years ago as they would lose there direct trains through City Thameslink and further but are now suffering from overcrowding and having trains every 30 minutes which is the price they paid to keep “direct” services This will then create problems as the 4tph to St Albans would have to serve new destinations down South which by the looks of it would have to be in Kent. In my opinion this is what should of happened in the first place On Southern, Taking over the metro services would be much more straightforward
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 1, 2018 8:23:18 GMT
Southern's West London route is an unusual service, as it operates as a semi-fast service from Milton Keynes to Wembley, then becomes a stopping metro service after Shepherd's Bush. Plus the incredibly slow section between Wembley and Shepherd's Bush, before switching to DC power.
I think the service should be altered to entirely be either a semifast service or a metro service.
A metro service could operate as now from East Croydon to Shepherds Bush, then calling at all or most stations towards Watford Junction and not beyond. This option could be taken over by TFL.
Or a semi-fast service pattern south of Shepherd's Bush. May be difficult to miss out stops such as Imperial Wharf on the overground overlap, but a faster service could be used after Clapham Junction (Similar to ThamesLink services having the core section with several stops close together). With this option, the service could continue to operate to Milton Keynes, and be extended from East Croydon, perhaps to Gatwick Airport. This service would continue to be operated by Southern, or could transfer to ThamesLink.
Another option altogether could be to withdraw the service via Kensington Olympia, and introduce a new service via the ThamesLink core, using the WCML to Primrose Hill then via Camden Road to join the line into St Pancras. This could take over services terminating at Kentish Town or West Hampstead, though destinations could be swapped if a continued link towards Croydon is desired.
In replacement, there is a possibility of the west London overground services being extended south from Clapham Junction - track layout will obviously allow this easily due to southern services.
I also think it would be very useful for the semi-fast LNWR services (half-hourly Tring service) to call at Willesden Junction. This would allow easy interchange here for Overground services via Shepherd's Bush, as well as services towards Richmond or Stratford, and the Bakerloo Line (allows to skip stops north of WJ rather than changing at Harrow & Wealdstone). Perhaps the Tring service could be increased to 3tph to partly replace the Southern service, possibly with one train per hour continuing to Milton Keynes.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 1, 2018 9:00:37 GMT
Southern's West London route is an unusual service, as it operates as a semi-fast service from Milton Keynes to Wembley, then becomes a stopping metro service after Shepherd's Bush. Plus the incredibly slow section between Wembley and Shepherd's Bush, before switching to DC power. I think the service should be altered to entirely be either a semifast service or a metro service. A metro service could operate as now from East Croydon to Shepherds Bush, then calling at all or most stations towards Watford Junction and not beyond. This option could be taken over by TFL. Or a semi-fast service pattern south of Shepherd's Bush. May be difficult to miss out stops such as Imperial Wharf on the overground overlap, but a faster service could be used after Clapham Junction (Similar to ThamesLink services having the core section with several stops close together). With this option, the service could continue to operate to Milton Keynes, and be extended from East Croydon, perhaps to Gatwick Airport. This service would continue to be operated by Southern, or could transfer to ThamesLink. Another option altogether could be to withdraw the service via Kensington Olympia, and introduce a new service via the ThamesLink core, using the WCML to Primrose Hill then via Camden Road to join the line into St Pancras. This could take over services terminating at Kentish Town or West Hampstead, though destinations could be swapped if a continued link towards Croydon is desired. In replacement, there is a possibility of the west London overground services being extended south from Clapham Junction - track layout will obviously allow this easily due to southern services. I also think it would be very useful for the semi-fast LNWR services (half-hourly Tring service) to call at Willesden Junction. This would allow easy interchange here for Overground services via Shepherd's Bush, as well as services towards Richmond or Stratford, and the Bakerloo Line (allows to skip stops north of WJ rather than changing at Harrow & Wealdstone). Perhaps the Tring service could be increased to 3tph to partly replace the Southern service, possibly with one train per hour continuing to Milton Keynes. Goodness your crayons have been busy. A few comments. 1. Passengers seem very happy with the service as it is. I understand it is crammed full in the peaks and does well off peak. Is there really a need to change it? If it ain't broke don't fix it. After all platforms were lengthened to take 10 car trains just to cater for this WLL service. 2. Rail services often switch between semi-fast and locals. Some of LNWR's services are fast out of London but stop at local stns between Coventry and Brum. There are other examples on Southern - fast out of London, local on the approach to Brighton / Eastbourne / Coastway west stns. It's about getting the best use of available resources and train paths. 3. Can't see how Thameslink could run it. Their class 700 train fleet is already constrained trying to run the planned network via the core. The DfT ordered too few trains. You also don't want a mix of train classes on a high frequency ATO route. You want a common fleet where all the trains have the same performance profile. This is important. 4. No point withdrawing the service - you'd upset a lot of people. There is no capacity in the TL core to take extra services nor is there any value in adding yet more service pattern complexity to an already very complex set up. It is also worth noting that the local DC tracks have signalling capacity constraints that limit the number of Bakerloo and Overground trains that can run. BR reduced the signalling capacity many years ago as the route seemed to be in decline. Overground are going to try to add 1 tph to the Euston - Watford service but it remains to be seen how this works and if it affects the service level on the Bakerloo north of Queens Park. 5. I don't see how a service from the WLL could call at Watford line local stns. I don't believe there is convenient, non conflicting access from the WLL tracks to the DC local lines without reversal east of Willesden Junction high level. 6. There are no AC local line platforms at Willesden Junction and I suspect that even trying to stop two trains an hour (not exactly a great frequency) would be deleterious to the overall WCML timetable. I believe it's difficult enough getting stops at Wembley Central, Harrow and Wealdstone and Bushey to work without adding more. There has been talk of reopening the AC line platforms at Queens Park but nothing has happened. A bit like bus service change proposals you have to ask yourself if there is a problem to be fixed and whether in fixing it you make things better or worse. Despite the low frequency and not exactly stellar speeds the Southern WLL service does very well despite negligible promotion by Southern and frequent cancellations the second anything goes wrong within 10 miles of its route. I would prefer to see it run half hourly but I have to recognise there probably aren't the paths south of Clapham Junction or north of Willesden to achieve this.
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Post by sid on Jun 1, 2018 9:17:19 GMT
Southern's West London route is an unusual service, as it operates as a semi-fast service from Milton Keynes to Wembley, then becomes a stopping metro service after Shepherd's Bush. Plus the incredibly slow section between Wembley and Shepherd's Bush, before switching to DC power. I think the service should be altered to entirely be either a semifast service or a metro service. A metro service could operate as now from East Croydon to Shepherds Bush, then calling at all or most stations towards Watford Junction and not beyond. This option could be taken over by TFL. Or a semi-fast service pattern south of Shepherd's Bush. May be difficult to miss out stops such as Imperial Wharf on the overground overlap, but a faster service could be used after Clapham Junction (Similar to ThamesLink services having the core section with several stops close together). With this option, the service could continue to operate to Milton Keynes, and be extended from East Croydon, perhaps to Gatwick Airport. This service would continue to be operated by Southern, or could transfer to ThamesLink. Another option altogether could be to withdraw the service via Kensington Olympia, and introduce a new service via the ThamesLink core, using the WCML to Primrose Hill then via Camden Road to join the line into St Pancras. This could take over services terminating at Kentish Town or West Hampstead, though destinations could be swapped if a continued link towards Croydon is desired. In replacement, there is a possibility of the west London overground services being extended south from Clapham Junction - track layout will obviously allow this easily due to southern services. I also think it would be very useful for the semi-fast LNWR services (half-hourly Tring service) to call at Willesden Junction. This would allow easy interchange here for Overground services via Shepherd's Bush, as well as services towards Richmond or Stratford, and the Bakerloo Line (allows to skip stops north of WJ rather than changing at Harrow & Wealdstone). Perhaps the Tring service could be increased to 3tph to partly replace the Southern service, possibly with one train per hour continuing to Milton Keynes. It is pretty much a stopping service throughout, it only non stops Bushey, Kings Langley, Apsley and Cheddington which are fairly quiet stations, it does also non stop Wandsworth Common on the southern section. Ideally it would be half hourly and extended to Gatwick Airport via Redhill but I don't think there is the track capacity to do so. The Tring to Euston service cannot call at Willesden Junction as there are no platforms on the WCML.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 1, 2018 9:46:57 GMT
Southern's West London route is an unusual service, as it operates as a semi-fast service from Milton Keynes to Wembley, then becomes a stopping metro service after Shepherd's Bush. Plus the incredibly slow section between Wembley and Shepherd's Bush, before switching to DC power. I think the service should be altered to entirely be either a semifast service or a metro service. A metro service could operate as now from East Croydon to Shepherds Bush, then calling at all or most stations towards Watford Junction and not beyond. This option could be taken over by TFL. Or a semi-fast service pattern south of Shepherd's Bush. May be difficult to miss out stops such as Imperial Wharf on the overground overlap, but a faster service could be used after Clapham Junction (Similar to ThamesLink services having the core section with several stops close together). With this option, the service could continue to operate to Milton Keynes, and be extended from East Croydon, perhaps to Gatwick Airport. This service would continue to be operated by Southern, or could transfer to ThamesLink. Another option altogether could be to withdraw the service via Kensington Olympia, and introduce a new service via the ThamesLink core, using the WCML to Primrose Hill then via Camden Road to join the line into St Pancras. This could take over services terminating at Kentish Town or West Hampstead, though destinations could be swapped if a continued link towards Croydon is desired. In replacement, there is a possibility of the west London overground services being extended south from Clapham Junction - track layout will obviously allow this easily due to southern services. I also think it would be very useful for the semi-fast LNWR services (half-hourly Tring service) to call at Willesden Junction. This would allow easy interchange here for Overground services via Shepherd's Bush, as well as services towards Richmond or Stratford, and the Bakerloo Line (allows to skip stops north of WJ rather than changing at Harrow & Wealdstone). Perhaps the Tring service could be increased to 3tph to partly replace the Southern service, possibly with one train per hour continuing to Milton Keynes. It is pretty much a stopping service throughout, it only non stops Bushey, Kings Langley, Apsley and Cheddington which are fairly quiet stations. Ideally it would be half hourly and extended to Gatwick Airport via Redhill but I don't think there is the track capacity to do so. The Tring to Euston service cannot call at Willesden Junction as there are no platforms on the WCML. Platforms at Willesden Junction would have to be constructed.
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Post by T.R. on Jun 2, 2018 5:20:52 GMT
IIRC the service doesn't run fast on the Brighton Mainline due to pathing issues (crossing over at Balham). Sadly the opportunity was missed to four-track the WLL at West Brompton / Shepherds Bush
If I had the crayons, I'd turn the service over to LNWR (the 350/1s could regain their shoes and run in pairs - plenty of Desiros are going spare to cover), and revise the service to become 2tph MKC - Clapham Junction, with an hourly extension to Northampton. This would also give Southern an additional path on the BML slows (and additional stock).
Time penalties aside, I think platforms should eventually be built on the WCML slows at Willesden Junction, to eventually allow interchange with Old Oak Common and Crossrail/Elizabeth Line (for Heathrow).
On another note, yesterday at CLJ some Southern services were being announced as Thameslink services.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 2, 2018 8:04:46 GMT
IIRC the service doesn't run fast on the Brighton Mainline due to pathing issues (crossing over at Balham). Sadly the opportunity was missed to four-track the WLL at West Brompton / Shepherds Bush If I had the crayons, I'd turn the service over to LNWR (the 350/1s could regain their shoes and run in pairs - plenty of Desiros are going spare to cover), and revise the service to become 2tph MKC - Clapham Junction, with an hourly extension to Northampton. This would also give Southern an additional path on the BML slows (and additional stock). Time penalties aside, I think platforms should eventually be built on the WCML slows at Willesden Junction, to eventually allow interchange with Old Oak Common and Crossrail/Elizabeth Line (for Heathrow). On another note, yesterday at CLJ some Southern services were being announced as Thameslink services. Definitely makes sense to transfer to service to LNWR and curtail at Clapham Junction. Not sure what the calling pattern was, but the Southern west London route originally ran from Watford Junction to Brighton.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 4, 2018 16:30:59 GMT
Chris Grayling doing an award winning "slopey shoulders" performance in the House of Commons about the GTR / Northern timetable fiasco. Network Rail to blame GTR to blame GTR readniness board to blame Northern Rail to blame Experts to blame Transport for the North to blame Chris Grayling and DfT - entirely BLAMELESS An utter, utter, utter shambles from Failing Grayling. EDIT - interesting that several Tory MPs are clearly seething but are having to hold back from beating up Grayling in front of the opposition benches. Chrispin Blunt, (Tory) MP for Redhill, came closest to dealing a near fatal blow. That illustrates how bad things are in Redhill / Reigate.
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Post by galwhv69 on Jun 4, 2018 18:20:17 GMT
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Post by SILENCED on Jun 4, 2018 19:04:51 GMT
It will never happen ... How could TfL take over services that have more mileage outside their area than within .... plus TfL don't really have the cash to take on a commitment that size.
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Post by T.R. on Jun 4, 2018 19:35:17 GMT
You'd be surprised at the amount of people who think TfL should run all rail services.
As others have said before me - with the exception of the Sutton loop (if curtailed to Blackfriars) and maybe the Moorgate to Hertford/Welwyn stoppers, TfL have no business running any Thameslink services.
After all, it's TfL - the clue's in the abbreviation.
As for Mr Grayling, I don't think we'll ever see him take responsibility for any of this. Surely the staffing requirements were outlined in the franchise agreement?
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Post by snoggle on Jun 4, 2018 19:45:29 GMT
Irrelevant. No one pays any attention to those petitions. They are a con trick to make people think they're being listened to. This government doesn't even listen to its own MPs. It only does what Arlene Foster demands as she has effective control of the government in the Commons. Grayling has kicked the "get rid of GTR" issue down the road by at least half a year by announcing the Glaister review. The man's an idiot - I sat through the entire statement and subsequent questions. He blamed everybody except himself, his department and the station cat. He knows his department cocked up. There have been 2 or 3 National Audit Office reports into Thameslink and GTR and each one said the department was at fault / made mistakes that have contributed to the disastrous mess we have today. He knows his department is dysfunctional but he won't / can't admit it because of the political consequences. Also T May can't / won't get rid of him. And why would he get rid of GTR? They are part of the "human shield" that Grayling is using to protect himself. Furthermore GTR have so much "muck" against the department that they could take it to court and cost the government millions and millions of pounds and have Grayling dragged into court to defend himself. Why would he wish to "annoy" GTR when they effectively have a gun pointed at his head? This whole sorry saga is one long monumental cock up that stretches back into the days of First Capital Connect. rFinally TfL and the Mayor would not want the whole of GTR. TfL said as much when Peter Hendy was Commissioner and Mike Brown has said nothing on the subject at all nor has the Mayor made any "land grab" type statements. He's been very subdued as he has more than his own share of worries with TfL. As has already been said there is a slight possibility that TfL *may* pick up the GN inners (and the WLL service) when the GTR franchise is restructured for retendering in 2021. There is no indication they would get any more than this from the current GTR "main line" franchise - certainly not services to Cambridge or Bedford or Brighton. You could possibly make a case for St Albans - Sutton loop services to transfer to TfL BUT there is no real merit at all in having multiple operators trying to run ATO equipped trains through the Thameslink core. It makes far more sense to have one operator on such a service.
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