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Post by snoggle on Apr 12, 2019 16:27:53 GMT
The stand out condition to me is the fact DC so far has only been approved for non passenger use, I wonder if that's where the remaining software problems lie. Fingers crossed we will now hopefully start to see progress with driver training. Well they can't approve them for DC use because there have been no test runs, other than short access runs from Willesden to Kensal Rise Junction, on DC metals. The 710s will have to run to the Brighton Main Line for tests to build up fault free mileage. All the effort so far has been on AC overhead testing. I suspect that TfL reduced the priority for DC testing in order to concentrate minds on getting approval for the GOBLIN. I also suspect that Network Rail would not want too much testing on the BML at the moment because so much work is being done on the infrastructure to improve reliability. They will want that work completed before surrendering track access for test trains.
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Post by snowman on Apr 12, 2019 16:42:06 GMT
The stand out condition to me is the fact DC so far has only been approved for non passenger use, I wonder if that's where the remaining software problems lie. Fingers crossed we will now hopefully start to see progress with driver training. OK so for time being some of the conditions are irrelevant such as de-icer mode (for Watford Line) Others such as passenger in DC will stop use on Watford line (and this letter covers the 18 units for Goblin and Watford Line) The single unit restrictions effectively prevents class being used on West Anglia for time being (although they are class 710/1 which isn’t covered) Looks like they are ok to use in passenger service in AC mode, Are there any sections of Goblin where a 75mph speed limit is relevant I do think the max 300amps (which is 7.5MW or 10,000 HP) is a comical restriction ..... Beam me up Scotty and engage warp drive, all 10,000 horsepower please
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Post by redbus on Apr 12, 2019 18:46:13 GMT
The stand out condition to me is the fact DC so far has only been approved for non passenger use, I wonder if that's where the remaining software problems lie. Fingers crossed we will now hopefully start to see progress with driver training. Well they can't approve them for DC use because there have been no test runs, other than short access runs from Willesden to Kensal Rise Junction, on DC metals. The 710s will have to run to the Brighton Main Line for tests to build up fault free mileage. All the effort so far has been on AC overhead testing. I suspect that TfL reduced the priority for DC testing in order to concentrate minds on getting approval for the GOBLIN. I also suspect that Network Rail would not want too much testing on the BML at the moment because so much work is being done on the infrastructure to improve reliability. They will want that work completed before surrendering track access for test trains. I am away from the forum for a short while and look what progress there is!!!!!!!!!......approval by the ORR. This is great news and an important step forward even though it is conditional.
What about certification that was previously discussed which had to be done elsewhere? Was that not needed, or was it completed?
So now there's ORR approval what is next? Can Arriva now start driver training in earnest? Anything else outstanding before trains can go into service, besides individual trains clocking up fault free mileage, which can presumably be done whilst driver training is in progress. I presume stopping the inter-car climbing etc would need to be done prior to passenger service, but hopefully that can sorted before driver training completes.
Perhaps the 710s might even be in service on the Goblin in June, or am I too optimistic? Maybe I should go away from the forum for another short while and all the trains will be in service!!!!!
As for DC, that will presumably be sorted once the 710s are in service in the GOBLIN. Perhaps DC use could be sorted for the Watford - Euston DC line in time for the December timetable change when the service can be increased to a 15 minute frequency.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 12, 2019 20:53:06 GMT
I am away from the forum for a short while and look what progress there is!!!!!!!!!......approval by the ORR. This is great news and an important step forward even though it is conditional.
What about certification that was previously discussed which had to be done elsewhere? Was that not needed, or was it completed?
So now there's ORR approval what is next? Can Arriva now start driver training in earnest? Anything else outstanding before trains can go into service, besides individual trains clocking up fault free mileage, which can presumably be done whilst driver training is in progress. I presume stopping the inter-car climbing etc would need to be done prior to passenger service, but hopefully that can sorted before driver training completes.
Perhaps the 710s might even be in service on the Goblin in June, or am I too optimistic? Maybe I should go away from the forum for another short while and all the trains will be in service!!!!!
As for DC, that will presumably be sorted once the 710s are in service in the GOBLIN. Perhaps DC use could be sorted for the Watford - Euston DC line in time for the December timetable change when the service can be increased to a 15 minute frequency. Warning - I may be about to talk a load of old nonsense. I'm not knowledgeable about rolling stock certification / approvals and certainly haven't read the regulations. Looking at the letter it looks as if some level of certification has been achieved. It is referenced but I don't know what the requirement is nor how it is met. In short don't know if the stock is certificated or not. Arriva are already training drivers. There are four return paths a day on the GOBLIN and in recent days all four have been used. Previously you were lucky to get two covered. I'd not be shocked to see extra paths being booked to speed things up. We did have a couple of days when two 710s were going up and down. With the reduced passenger timetable there is plenty of scope to run extra training paths provided they don't block freight / C2C trains at Barking. I suspect that some trains have achieved fault free mileage on AC. The number of WCML runs has dropped recently which suggests that something has been achieved and Bombardier were waiting for the ORR reponse. To ORR's credit they're the only organisation that's issued any detail at all about the introduction of the 710s. That's a tad ironic given they have no real duty to the public in respect of rolling stock approvals - it's an issue for manufacturers, TOCs, ROSCOs and Network Rail. My reading of the letter is that the anti climbing thing should ideally be done prior to passenger service but it's not compulsory. The point here is management of the risk which applies to moving trains, trains in passenger use and trains sat in depots. People do break into depots for all sorts of reasons so the risk exists as of now. I don't particularly envisage this being a big problem for Bombardier to fix. They will have been aware of issues on other types of stock that have been approved for use such as Hitachi class 385s and the IEPs. The trains may start to be in service in May or June. My hunch is a slow build up with peak extras running first to ease overcrowding / reduce waiting times when the route is busiest. How TfL build the service up will, I suspect, depend entirely on how reliable or otherwise the trains are (driver training permitting). I don't see any mad dash to return the 378s to 5 car length. TfL will want certainty that the 710s can be relied up before they release the 378s and start to build up the timetable in earnest. They will be under huge pressure to rush things from politicians and others who don't understand there is plenty of work still to do, a lot of learning to be learnt and that any breach of the conditions may result in the trains being pulled out of service. That's the crucial thing here - getting things sorted so that *unconditional* approval is eventually granted. Much as I want the trains to get into service I don't want stupid rushed decisions being taken now given they have the potential to unravel and do so very badly. The DC approvals are not a priority for now. There will be a conflict between getting the GOBLIN sorted out, resolving the AC approval conditions and then pulling in more trains from Bombardier for testing / mileage accumulation on DC. They also have to start on getting the 710/1s (for West Anglia) sorted too. Let's not run away with ourselves - it's a small but important step today but LOADS of stuff still to do. I wouldn't want to hazard a guess about 710s being on the DC service come December.
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Post by ServerKing on Apr 13, 2019 6:01:26 GMT
I understood every word It's a lot of stuff to wade through to get the trains approved, but it's more progress than Brexit I would like to see some of the new trains start to appear on the West Anglia line, hopefully as that's AC only there will be less delay
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Post by snoggle on Apr 13, 2019 10:15:12 GMT
I understood every word It's a lot of stuff to wade through to get the trains approved, but it's more progress than Brexit I would like to see some of the new trains start to appear on the West Anglia line, hopefully as that's AC only there will be less delay AFAIK none of the 710/1s for West Anglia have even started mileage accumulation yet nor have any even been delivered. A few are apparently at Old Dalby test track. Finding test paths on West Anglia is a tougher ask because of the capacity limits into Liverpool St plus the risk of a breakdown causing huge disruption. West Anglia services have had a torrid week because Network Rail have had dreadful signalling problems at multiple locations including Stansted, Clapton and elsewhere. I've also seen comments that the revised signalling integrating the junction with STAR near Lea Bridge has not been working properly. The old West Anglia rolling stock is also conking out more often now because no one will spend money on them. AFAIK a test 710/2 has made it to Cheshunt and Enfield Town but not to Chingford yet. We'll need to watch for 710s being delivered to Ilford as a sign of progress on West Anglia.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 13, 2019 18:36:48 GMT
Despite the ORR approval I don't think London Overground seem to have enough trust in the type yet to let it out without its Thunderbird, happened to see that in Barking this afternoon although as with my luck I didn't see a 710 about.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 13, 2019 19:46:21 GMT
Despite the ORR approval I don't think London Overground seem to have enough trust in the type yet to let it out without its Thunderbird, happened to see that in Barking this afternoon although as with my luck I didn't see a 710 about. Well some of those runs do operate without a Thunderbird. One return run has the 710 recess at Holloway goods loop for about 35 mins but the loco heads straight back to Willesden. The train then runs on its own later path to Willesden. Seems a tad pointless to do it like this - you either need a Thunderbird or you don't! I have seen the 710s run but the loco not run. I've also seen the loco run on its own because no one cancelled it even though the 710 was sat in Willesden. Can you tell I spend too much time watching the signalling diagrams on opentraintimes.com? If you see the Thunderbird at Barking then the 710 will either turn up within 10 mins or so *or* it's just left over the viaduct and the Thunderbird is waiting for signals to depart. A quick check on realtimetrains.com or opentraintimes.com will show where it is. The current test paths for the 710 are coded 3Z and then two digits - odd for eastbound trips, even for westbound such as 3Z01 or 3Z04. Loco moves are usually a three number code then a letter - usually preceded with a zero. Freights are similar but I haven't fathomed all their intracacies. A google search brought this up ----> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_reporting_number
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 13, 2019 20:02:25 GMT
Despite the ORR approval I don't think London Overground seem to have enough trust in the type yet to let it out without its Thunderbird, happened to see that in Barking this afternoon although as with my luck I didn't see a 710 about. Well some of those runs do operate without a Thunderbird. One return run has the 710 recess at Holloway goods loop for about 35 mins but the loco heads straight back to Willesden. The train then runs on its own later path to Willesden. Seems a tad pointless to do it like this - you either need a Thunderbird or you don't! I have seen the 710s run but the loco not run. I've also seen the loco run on its own because no one cancelled it even though the 710 was sat in Willesden. Can you tell I spend too much time watching the signalling diagrams on opentraintimes.com? If you see the Thunderbird at Barking then the 710 will either turn up within 10 mins or so *or* it's just left over the viaduct and the Thunderbird is waiting for signals to depart. A quick check on realtimetrains.com or opentraintimes.com will show where it is. The current test paths for the 710 are coded 3Z and then two digits - odd for eastbound trips, even for westbound such as 3Z01 or 3Z04. Loco moves are usually a three number code then a letter - usually preceded with a zero. Freights are similar but I haven't fathomed all their intracacies. A google search brought this up ----> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_reporting_numberI wonder how on earth the Loco ended up running but the 710 didn't, surely the driver of it would have realised that there's no 710 ahead Thanks for the information regarding head codes, hopefully I now stand a better chance of catching sight of one of them on test.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 13, 2019 20:09:07 GMT
I wonder how on earth the Loco ended up running but the 710 didn't, surely the driver of it would have realised that there's no 710 ahead Thanks for the information regarding head codes, hopefully I now stand a better chance of catching sight of one of them on test. Not always - sometimes they let the 710 go, then a normal 378 service train and then the loco on the NLL. The loco then has to try to catch up once it's on the GOBLIN but the signal sections are quite long so it can't necessarily see the train ahead. There was one movement last week where the 710 left Willesden Junc Low Level bay and got as far as the junction to the NLL and was then put into the reversing siding east of Willesden Junc high level. It was then sent back to Willesden LL. The Thunderbird loco had to do the same moves!! I assume the 710 developed a fault or a warning where they decided not to risk running on the main line.
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Post by redbus on Apr 14, 2019 12:46:53 GMT
I have read the authorisation from the ORR for the Class 710s and while I don't claim to understand it all, it doesn't seem too onerous to me, or that difficult for Bombardier and Arriva to get to a position where the 710s can be in passenger service.
Bombardier only need to agree a plan and timetable with the ORR for modifications to prevent surfing / climbing, they will have a year to undertake those modifications, so this should not stop the 710s going into passenger service. Arriva / Bombardier will need a time-bound plan on how to mitigate those risks until the modifications are made. The important point here is that creating and agreeing a plan should be much quicker than actually undertaking the modifications.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 16, 2019 23:18:02 GMT
Seems there has been a step up in 710 test runs. All 4 daytime return trips ran today. Overnight runs on the WCML ran Monday night and is out today (Tues / Wed night) and there is also a 710 going back and forth on the GOBLIN overnight (also on Monday night).
I wonder at what point Bombardier decide to deliver a few more 710s to Willesden as I think there are only six at the moment and 8 are needed for a full compliment on the GOBLIN. Also at some point DC test runs have to start too. I assume they believe they have a reasonably stable train management system now hence the step up in activity.
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Post by richard on Apr 18, 2019 20:12:54 GMT
Due to the upcoming weekend engineering works and required train maintenance, five of the final Gospel Oak to Barking services will be cancelled this evening.
The Cancelled Trains are the: - (21:51) Gospel Oak to Barking - (22:22) Gospel Oak to Barking - (22:36) Barking to Gospel Oak - (23:13) Barking to Gospel Oak - (23:25) Gospel Oak to Barking
The following Rail Replacement buses will be run: - Barking to Walthamstow Central, at 22:40 & 23:15 - Walthamstow Central to Barking, 22:30, 23:00 & 23:50 - Seven Sisters to Gospel Oak, 22:57 & 23:30 - Gospel Oak to Seven Sisters, 21:55, 22:25 & 23:25
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 20:40:17 GMT
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Post by ServerKing on Apr 21, 2019 20:50:43 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is bringing back British Rail so all these issues will be gone
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