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Post by snoggle on Feb 17, 2016 23:54:42 GMT
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Post by northken on Feb 18, 2016 9:21:28 GMT
I can see for the Piccadilly Line a "West London service change" is due around 2026 (page 8), in line with the other upgrades. Also, 20 years apparently until driverless trains  |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 18, 2016 9:54:16 GMT
I can see for the Piccadilly Line a "West London service change" is due around 2026 (page 8), in line with the other upgrades. Also, 20 years apparently until driverless trains And that assumes that the government provides a decent capital spending settlement post 2020 and that LU doesn't go into "bravado mode" and cocks up the procurement of the Picc signalling system as it did on Sub Surface. That error has cost £1bn and is why the Picc Line isn't being upgraded now and having new trains built. The Picc and Bakerloo desparately need sorting out but I'm a bit sceptical that LU will be able to achieve all it wants on the Picc upgrade. The whole thing is being set up as a massive step change on many different fronts and that makes it expensive, complex and open to "refinement" (cuts) if the money is tight. Depending on who wins the next Mayoralty will have a big bearing on staffing strategies on LU's trains although I expect the trains will be bought with the capabilty to run without a driver. |
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Post by M1104 on Feb 22, 2018 13:22:13 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Feb 22, 2018 13:33:00 GMT
Looks like semantics to me to try to calm the unions down and to take any steam out of possible strike threats. All hinges on definitions - what is a "train", what is "driverless", what is "a driver" (at some point in the future), what does "some deep tube sections" mean. The simple fact is that trains operate automatically all over the world in all sorts of conditions and with crowding easily as bad as in London and no one bats an eyelid (Singapore is one such place with driverless trains on three lines - North East, Circle, Downtown and I think I am right in saying they are all wholly underground). LU definitely want to have wholly automatic trains at some point in the future - we need to see what is specced for the replacement Picc Line stock in terms of driver cabs or not. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Feb 22, 2018 17:24:03 GMT
Looks like semantics to me to try to calm the unions down and to take any steam out of possible strike threats. All hinges on definitions - what is a "train", what is "driverless", what is "a driver" (at some point in the future), what does "some deep tube sections" mean. The simple fact is that trains operate automatically all over the world in all sorts of conditions and with crowding easily as bad as in London and no one bats an eyelid (Singapore is one such place with driverless trains on three lines - North East, Circle, Downtown and I think I am right in saying they are all wholly underground). LU definitely want to have wholly automatic trains at some point in the future - we need to see what is specced for the replacement Picc Line stock in terms of driver cabs or not. I wouldn't be surprised if the trains were designed to easily have the cabs removed completely at a later date, so that they can start with having drivers but can be converted to full Automatic operation. Personally I don't see what the huge issue with driverless trains are, the DLR has some underground sections such as Cutty Sark and Bank and manages perfectly fine and there don't seem to be daily complaints over it. I'm assuming one obvious issue that people have is the fact a driverless train not being able to emergency brake should something or someone obstruct the track within a fraction of a second, if the Deep Tube upgrade programme is carried out as planned then the PEDs that will be fitted to most stations should minimise that risk. |
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Post by Alex on Feb 23, 2018 2:25:06 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if the trains were designed to easily have the cabs removed completely at a later date, so that they can start with having drivers but can be converted to full Automatic operation. Personally I don't see what the huge issue with driverless trains are, the DLR has some underground sections such as Cutty Sark and Bank and manages perfectly fine and there don't seem to be daily complaints over it. I'm assuming one obvious issue that people have is the fact a driverless train not being able to emergency brake should something or someone obstruct the track within a fraction of a second, if the Deep Tube upgrade programme is carried out as planned then the PEDs that will be fitted to most stations should minimise that risk. I think the issue is whether the train is 'driverless' (as DLR) or 'unattended' with nobody on board at all. I don't know anything about the Singapore network but I imagine this to be the latter. I have seen something about a network in Dubai which has no staff on board and I'm thinking some lines in Paris may be the same way too. As you say the DLR has some tunnel sections which copes as the trains have a member of staff on board. Also their tunnels are designed differently to the ones LUL use as they have walkways and escape points to the surface. There's several factors which make LUL tracks a bit different to some other metro systems in the world, the tunnels are very old and not designed for unattended operation (in the event of emergencies etc). Also a fair amount is paralleled with/runs over Network Rail lines as well, the railway not being self contained as another barrier for trains to be unattended. I personally think LUL trains will maintain a staff member on board, but in the future where this person is situated and what their responsibilities involve is something I can't gauge yet. Going the way of the DLR seems something which it's easy to imagine, but the tube is a lot busier than the DLR and I can't see how a staff member could carry out their role supervising the train effectively from carriages which could be crush loaded. For this reason the cab might remain. When I look at a train (take a seven car S stock for example) I look at how tall it is, how long it is, how many people can fit into it, the speeds it can travel at and it's too serious a bit of kit to be running about by itself. While I can see some sort of train supervising post continuing into the future, I can't see it being the current Train Operator grade that LUL use now and this new role being something different. The SSR upgrade is pressing forward at the moment with the first bit of ATO pencilled in on May 27th from Latimer Road to Hammersmith, as it stands the S stock and the CBTC signalling system still have issues which heavily require human input (such as train faults and when the signalling system experiences failures, in addition to an agreement on manual driving running into depots and sidings - add to this running with Network Rail trains on sizeable sections) but whether this can be changed in the future with faults being rectified remotely is something which remains to be seen. What you say about cabs being removed is something which has been rumoured with the S stock too, that they can be sent back to Derby to have this work done. We will see, I've been told the intention is for the S stock to continue with an operator in the cab, however the lessons being learned from this upgrade will provide the nuts and bolts for the enhanced stuff on the NTfL....... |
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