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Post by sid on Jul 15, 2016 5:27:05 GMT
I'd guess for reliability issues longer routes would have split sections maybe. Bad side would be dealing with frequencies without overbussing like say for example if 3 was extended back to Camden Town. A Camden Town to Kennington or Brixton and Regent Street as usual to usual Crystal Palace. The problem would be better solved on routes with busier inner sections like routes split into bendies or so. Perhaps this could work with 59 to Aldwych. Just my simple thoughts. Running routes in sections would just cause the same problems, too many buses on the overlap section. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2016 7:16:00 GMT
A pedestrianised Oxford Street would hamper emergency services vehicular access , something which isn't usually thought about. Plus, having thousands of people walking down a long, straight street, as horrendously demonstrated in Nice last night, presents a gruesome opportunity for terrorists.
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Post by snowman on Jul 15, 2016 8:02:17 GMT
I beleive the opening of Elizabeth line, full Thameslink service and Northern Line extension gives the opportunity to be radical.
It simply gives a good excuse to say routes are being changed to provide easy interchange with trains to speed journeys. Thus services will be reorganised as station feeders from suburbs and the long radial services will be chopped.
Even something like newly altered 436 could go when NLE opens. Clearly places like Whitechapel will become interchanges and only few buses go closer to centre.
If I was thinking out the box I would scrap the bus only season ticket next year so people are used to multi mode then consultations go through with little objection. Unfortunate for poor, but they need to pay for whole network if we are going to have a network in long term.
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Post by sid on Jul 15, 2016 8:29:33 GMT
A pedestrianised Oxford Street would hamper emergency services vehicular access , something which isn't usually thought about. Plus, having thousands of people walking down a long, straight street, as horrendously demonstrated in Nice last night, presents a gruesome opportunity for terrorists. If anything I would think it will make things easier for emergency services and I'm afraid there are plenty of opportunities for a copycat of what happened in Nice should anybody be so minded. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2016 9:05:02 GMT
A pedestrianised Oxford Street would hamper emergency services vehicular access , something which isn't usually thought about. Plus, having thousands of people walking down a long, straight street, as horrendously demonstrated in Nice last night, presents a gruesome opportunity for terrorists. If anything I would think it will make things easier for emergency services and I'm afraid there are plenty of opportunities for a copycat of what happened in Nice should anybody be so minded. Sorry have to disagree, restriction on vehicular access delays emergency services. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2016 9:17:58 GMT
Agree with sid in terms of overlapping routes, in fact I think we could be seeing the end of the 4xx routes (14 414, 52, 452, 53 453 etc) and have routes merged. Emergency services could almost certainly still use Oxford Street, a ban on vehicles does not apply to blues so even rolling through a crowd of people at extreme caution speed would often be quicker than struggling through Piccadilly or Euston Road (no hold ups at signalled junctions etc). I think most people would move if they saw an emergency vehicle trying to pass anyway, there are always a few idiots which is why they would need to come through very slowly. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2016 9:35:15 GMT
I beleive the opening of Elizabeth line, full Thameslink service and Northern Line extension gives the opportunity to be radical. It simply gives a good excuse to say routes are being changed to provide easy interchange with trains to speed journeys. Thus services will be reorganised as station feeders from suburbs and the long radial services will be chopped. Even something like newly altered 436 could go when NLE opens. Clearly places like Whitechapel will become interchanges and only few buses go closer to centre. If I was thinking out the box I would scrap the bus only season ticket next year so people are used to multi mode then consultations go through with little objection. Unfortunate for poor, but they need to pay for whole network if we are going to have a network in long term. Agree 100%, oyster has been upgraded several times since it launched and introducing a 'bus-train' single fare would be a good profit, the technology is there for it. Already discussed the feeder issue already so won't bore everybody by repetition but one thing they MAY do is introduce route(s) to connect the outer hubs or key station interchanges like the 705/SL1&2 once did, would be a good 'compromise'. If cost prevents express services they could rejig existing routes although these would obviously be less attractive. |
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Post by danorak on Jul 15, 2016 10:05:38 GMT
Perhaps they could call it 'Reshaping London Buses'...
More seriously, I hope the lessons of that are remembered, such as ensuring that forced interchanges are safe and able to cope with the numbers. Just dumping people at the side of the road so there's a massive bunfight to get on a bus that may already be busy may not be good enough.
I can certainly see the need for some rationalisation if Oxford Street is pedestrianised; I've said before on this that if you run the 73 via Piccadilly, it starts to look very similar to the 19 and 38. Similarly, from the west, the 14, 19 and 22 have significant similarities. But then how does all this fit with the lobbying that places like Roehampton and the White City Estate must have direct services to central London. Yes, the Hopper ticket will help, but breaking the journey at the other end doesn't seem to help a great deal.
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Post by John tuthill on Jul 15, 2016 10:56:40 GMT
Perhaps they could call it 'Reshaping London Buses'...More seriously, I hope the lessons of that are remembered, such as ensuring that forced interchanges are safe and able to cope with the numbers. Just dumping people at the side of the road so there's a massive bunfight to get on a bus that may already be busy may not be good enough. I can certainly see the need for some rationalisation if Oxford Street is pedestrianised; I've said before on this that if you run the 73 via Piccadilly, it starts to look very similar to the 19 and 38. Similarly, from the west, the 14, 19 and 22 have significant similarities. But then how does all this fit with the lobbying that places like Roehampton and the White City Estate must have direct services to central London. Yes, the Hopper ticket will help, but breaking the journey at the other end doesn't seem to help a great deal. They seem to be doing that already considering the number of shunts reported here  |
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Post by rmz19 on Jul 15, 2016 11:52:17 GMT
Agree with sid in terms of overlapping routes, in fact I think we could be seeing the end of the 4xx routes (14 414, 52, 452, 53 453 etc) and have routes merged. Emergency services could almost certainly still use Oxford Street, a ban on vehicles does not apply to blues so even rolling through a crowd of people at extreme caution speed would often be quicker than struggling through Piccadilly or Euston Road (no hold ups at signalled junctions etc). I think most people would move if they saw an emergency vehicle trying to pass anyway, there are always a few idiots which is why they would need to come through very slowly. The fundamental and obvious issue with withdrawing the overlapping 4xx routes would be the lost links that cannot be feasibly covered with re-extending the original route due to reliability, why go back to a worse state when it's clearly better the way it is now? Some curtailments and extensions here and there perhaps, but I just don't see the pedestrianisation or the Elizabeth Line leading to the extent of withdrawing the overlapping 4xx routes. Baring in mind, the 453 and arguably the 10/390 would be the only overlapping routes directly affected by these schemes, that's not to say they would be axing the former and re-extending the 53 to Piccadilly Circus or Great Portland Street, and Marylebone should not even be contemplated...this is the 53 after all! |
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Post by enviroPB on Jul 15, 2016 13:41:59 GMT
Agree with sid in terms of overlapping routes, in fact I think we could be seeing the end of the 4xx routes (14 414, 52, 452, 53 453 etc) and have routes merged. Emergency services could almost certainly still use Oxford Street, a ban on vehicles does not apply to blues so even rolling through a crowd of people at extreme caution speed would often be quicker than struggling through Piccadilly or Euston Road (no hold ups at signalled junctions etc). I think most people would move if they saw an emergency vehicle trying to pass anyway, there are always a few idiots which is why they would need to come through very slowly. The fundamental and obvious issue with withdrawing the overlapping 4xx routes would be the lost links that cannot be feasibly covered with re-extending the original route due to reliability, why go back to a worse state when it's clearly better the way it is now? Some curtailments and extensions here and there perhaps, but I just don't see the pedestrianisation or the Elizabeth Line leading to the extent of withdrawing the overlapping 4xx routes. Baring in mind, the 453 and arguably the 10/390 would be the only overlapping routes directly affected by these schemes, that's not to say they would be axing the former and re-extending the 53 to Piccadilly Circus or Great Portland Street, and Marylebone should not even be contemplated...this is the 53 after all! I fear the 436 consultation is the model by which TfL may continue with their proposed changes. If that model is to bolster trunk routes that traverse through central London while rerouting the feeder/reliever routes then it's very radical times at Surface Transport HQ indeed. Look at the 115 being diverted via Whitechapel vis-à-vis the Tower Hamlets bus development documents. I was very sceptical as to why this idea wasn't tried years earlier & why it wasn't tried ideally with route 135 instead. But as many of us at various times have said; Crossrail will bring radical changes to the bus network so all we have to do is wait patiently for what comes next. Amazingly I feel less worried about the 25 being fully hacked off but I am bracing for the route to see Holborn as its daily western termini if TCR* will be deluged with other high frequency routes terminating there. Would love to see a bus station there though; TCR and Marble Arch will serve as good interchanges at either side of Oxford Street if bus stations could be erected. I also assume N25 will come back to retain a very important night link to east London. *Tottenham Court Road as an iBus display does not exist for some bizarre reason. Only time was in 2009 when it got curtailed there due to the subway station being rebuilt. Other than that, never seen TCR as an iBus display on the 25. Very peculiar. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2016 13:47:37 GMT
Agree with sid in terms of overlapping routes, in fact I think we could be seeing the end of the 4xx routes (14 414, 52, 452, 53 453 etc) and have routes merged. Emergency services could almost certainly still use Oxford Street, a ban on vehicles does not apply to blues so even rolling through a crowd of people at extreme caution speed would often be quicker than struggling through Piccadilly or Euston Road (no hold ups at signalled junctions etc). I think most people would move if they saw an emergency vehicle trying to pass anyway, there are always a few idiots which is why they would need to come through very slowly. The fundamental and obvious issue with withdrawing the overlapping 4xx routes would be the lost links that cannot be feasibly covered with re-extending the original route due to reliability, why go back to a worse state when it's clearly better the way it is now? Some curtailments and extensions here and there perhaps, but I just don't see the pedestrianisation or the Elizabeth Line leading to the extent of withdrawing the overlapping 4xx routes. Baring in mind, the 453 and arguably the 10/390 would be the only overlapping routes directly affected by these schemes, that's not to say they would be axing the former and re-extending the 53 to Piccadilly Circus or Great Portland Street, and Marylebone should not even be contemplated...this is the 53 after all! Yes but who decides that overlapping routes should remain? Not us. Who decides that extending routes and 'broken links' would be worse? Not us. All they'll do (as has already been suggested) is paint pretty pictures in their consultations. They don't even need overall support! |
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Post by vjaska on Jul 15, 2016 14:19:09 GMT
Agree with sid in terms of overlapping routes, in fact I think we could be seeing the end of the 4xx routes (14 414, 52, 452, 53 453 etc) and have routes merged. Emergency services could almost certainly still use Oxford Street, a ban on vehicles does not apply to blues so even rolling through a crowd of people at extreme caution speed would often be quicker than struggling through Piccadilly or Euston Road (no hold ups at signalled junctions etc). I think most people would move if they saw an emergency vehicle trying to pass anyway, there are always a few idiots which is why they would need to come through very slowly. The fundamental and obvious issue with withdrawing the overlapping 4xx routes would be the lost links that cannot be feasibly covered with re-extending the original route due to reliability, why go back to a worse state when it's clearly better the way it is now? Some curtailments and extensions here and there perhaps, but I just don't see the pedestrianisation or the Elizabeth Line leading to the extent of withdrawing the overlapping 4xx routes. Baring in mind, the 453 and arguably the 10/390 would be the only overlapping routes directly affected by these schemes, that's not to say they would be axing the former and re-extending the 53 to Piccadilly Circus or Great Portland Street, and Marylebone should not even be contemplated...this is the 53 after all! Indeed, the overlapping 300 & 400 series routes have been very successful in maintaining reliability for the route that lost a small section and bolstered the main section in the middle. To remove them now will a massive backwards step in terms of reliability for both Central London & the suburbs. I also don't buy into this notion of removing routes just because Crossrail suddenly pops up. Most Underground lines are full to bursting especially in Central London and Crossrail will be as well in next to no time. Buses can't really compete with trains at the end of the day and in actual fact, buses are more friend than foe to trains. Forcing people from buses onto already overcrowded trains is idiotic at best and downright dangerous at worst - a bus route running alongside would ease some pressure and allow those who don't use or can't afford train fares another way of getting to their destination. |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 15, 2016 14:44:59 GMT
If I was thinking out the box I would scrap the bus only season ticket next year so people are used to multi mode then consultations go through with little objection. Unfortunate for poor, but they need to pay for whole network if we are going to have a network in long term. Agree 100%, oyster has been upgraded several times since it launched and introducing a 'bus-train' single fare would be a good profit, the technology is there for it. Those of us who were responsible for the original spec for Prestige / Oyster included full multi modal single journey through ticketing in it. Why it's never been used other than for Tramlink is a separate debate. The desire not to dilute revenues is probably the key concern. Moving to Snowman's comment about only having multi modal seasons then you have real problems about how you price it. If the price was higher than the current Bus and Tram Pass then the Mayor's pledge on fares would be broken. If the price was reduced to match the bus and tram pass (hooray cry Travelcard users) then TfL would undermine umpteen rail franchise revenue streams and would be forced to make compensating payments to the DfT. This would run into many tens, possibly hundreds, of millions of pounds. There is no scope for that. Furthermore a price cut is counter intuitive when you have a capacity crisis due to burgeoning demand. The only middle path is to bring back TfL only tickets (like the old LT Card) but that again will affect the Travelcard market share and revenues so you're back into problem territory with the DfT and Treasury. |
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Post by sid on Jul 15, 2016 15:40:21 GMT
Agree with sid in terms of overlapping routes, in fact I think we could be seeing the end of the 4xx routes (14 414, 52, 452, 53 453 etc) and have routes merged. Emergency services could almost certainly still use Oxford Street, a ban on vehicles does not apply to blues so even rolling through a crowd of people at extreme caution speed would often be quicker than struggling through Piccadilly or Euston Road (no hold ups at signalled junctions etc). I think most people would move if they saw an emergency vehicle trying to pass anyway, there are always a few idiots which is why they would need to come through very slowly. I think the 53/453 split has been one of the better ones and it puts more buses on the busiest section but I wouldn't be surprised to see these routes cut back to Elephant & Castle and Oxford Circus respectively. I don't think many people would miss the 452 if it were axed, it's 'unique turn' at Knightsbridge could be replaced by another route. I'm not sure that the 414 really needs to shadow the 14 all the way to Putney Bridge or the 476 shadow the 73 to Stokey. |
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