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Post by snoggle on Jun 21, 2017 11:38:53 GMT
The 414 seems like the 452 in that it was struggled to find any large passenger numbers. The 452 may find a little more purpose if it gets really routed to Westbourne Park thou i can't see that even being the well used as it's quicker to get to Notting Hill on the 28 group. Define "large passenger numbers"? Just for the record the 414 carries around 5m pass jnys a year (160th busiest TfL route in 2016/17). The 452 carries 4.6m pass jnys a year (170th busiest TfL route in 2016/17). These are not small numbers. Hundreds of other TfL routes carry fewer people than these routes but no one is arguing about their utility or value. The relevant points to consider are a) on the core sections of route served are these routes performing a valuable role in meeting overall demand or is there a vast amount of spare capacity that may render them unnecessary or worthy of a frequency change? b) do these routes provide unique and convenient network links and are they meeting existing and future transport needs? Both the 414 and 452 provide unique network links. I can't comment from data or personal experience as to how well used they are. I will be boring and say again (sorry folks) that not every route in a network is going to run at max capacity all day, every day. There may very well be a clear justification to look at the 414 (the point made by Mr RMZ) but I expect the 452 is more than safe because of the new link into Vauxhall and the opportunity to serve the Nine Elms Opportunity Area in the future.
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Post by rmz19 on Jun 21, 2017 11:42:58 GMT
Now that the 6 is rerouted along Park Lane and Piccadilly, there are now three routes between Hyde Park Corner and Maida Hill, 6/36/414 and something really needs to be done about this. The 414 duplicates the 6 even more as a result and the 414 was already superfluous since it was rerouted to Maida Hill in the first place as the 6 can manage perfectly alone. The 36 additionally provides this link via Paddington, therefore it would be sensible if the 414 is rerouted elsewhere from Edgware Road to provide new links as it's the least popular out of the three routes, this would give the 414 more use other than just being an assist. I agree, I think the 414 only goes to Maida Hill for stand space reasons? An idea I suggested previously was to reroute it via St Johns Wood Road and then to Golders Green as a partial replacement for the 82. Alternatively rerouted via the 36 to Queens Park with the 36 curtailed at Paddington. At the other end withdrawn South Kensington to Putney Bridge and rerouted via the N97 route to Hammersmith with the 190 curtailed at Hammersmith. This is assuming the 9 will return to Mortlake if and when the bridge is sorted out replacing the 209 creating stand space in Hammersmith bus station.On the other hand with the decline in usage the 414 could just be withdrawn completely without replacement although it does provide a useful link for the Edgware Road area to Knightsbridge and South Kensington. Perhaps this is the case, which suggests ignorance on TFL's behalf. Your idea of extending the 414 to Golders Green is interesting, however there would be superfluous capacity between Golders Green and Child's Hill, hence why Finchley Road is a more ideal terminus while keeping its current form. Alternatively, to go by your idea the 328 could be curtailed to West Hampstead, rerouted at the other end to Putney Bridge/Putney High Street alongside the 14 and the 414 could be extended to Golders Green, though it would be sensible to curtail the 414 to Fulham Broadway or South Kensington to avoid reliability issues. Consequently, the 13 and 139 could receive a frequency decrease, that way there is sufficient assistance along the Finchley Road corridor while avoiding unnecessary extra capacity. I certainly do not agree with cutting the 36 from Queen's Park, unnecessary to break a popular route. On a tangent the route could be awarded to Tower Transit with X operating it and it could be curtailed to Peckham, but I digress.
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Post by sid on Jun 21, 2017 12:02:44 GMT
I agree, I think the 414 only goes to Maida Hill for stand space reasons? An idea I suggested previously was to reroute it via St Johns Wood Road and then to Golders Green as a partial replacement for the 82. Alternatively rerouted via the 36 to Queens Park with the 36 curtailed at Paddington. At the other end withdrawn South Kensington to Putney Bridge and rerouted via the N97 route to Hammersmith with the 190 curtailed at Hammersmith. This is assuming the 9 will return to Mortlake if and when the bridge is sorted out replacing the 209 creating stand space in Hammersmith bus station.On the other hand with the decline in usage the 414 could just be withdrawn completely without replacement although it does provide a useful link for the Edgware Road area to Knightsbridge and South Kensington. Perhaps this is the case, which suggests ignorance on TFL's behalf. Your idea of extending the 414 to Golders Green is interesting, however there would be superfluous capacity between Golders Green and Child's Hill, hence why Finchley Road is a more ideal terminus while keeping its current form. Alternatively, to go by your idea the 328 could be curtailed to West Hampstead, rerouted at the other end to Putney Bridge/Putney High Street alongside the 14 and the 414 could be extended to Golders Green, though it would be sensible to curtail the 414 to Fulham Broadway or South Kensington to avoid reliability issues. Consequently, the 13 and 139 could receive a frequency decrease, that way there is sufficient assistance along the Finchley Road corridor while avoiding unnecessary extra capacity. I certainly do not agree with cutting the 36 from Queen's Park, unnecessary to break a popular route. On a tangent the route could be awarded to Tower Transit with X operating it and it could be curtailed to Peckham, but I digress. Yes Finchley Road Station or O2 would probably be realistic. I don't see why the 36 cannot be changed, the current level of service to Queens Park is a tad excessive. If TT's performance on the 13 so far is anything to go by then heaven help us if they get the 36!
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Post by vjaska on Jun 21, 2017 12:39:04 GMT
Perhaps this is the case, which suggests ignorance on TFL's behalf. Your idea of extending the 414 to Golders Green is interesting, however there would be superfluous capacity between Golders Green and Child's Hill, hence why Finchley Road is a more ideal terminus while keeping its current form. Alternatively, to go by your idea the 328 could be curtailed to West Hampstead, rerouted at the other end to Putney Bridge/Putney High Street alongside the 14 and the 414 could be extended to Golders Green, though it would be sensible to curtail the 414 to Fulham Broadway or South Kensington to avoid reliability issues. Consequently, the 13 and 139 could receive a frequency decrease, that way there is sufficient assistance along the Finchley Road corridor while avoiding unnecessary extra capacity. I certainly do not agree with cutting the 36 from Queen's Park, unnecessary to break a popular route. On a tangent the route could be awarded to Tower Transit with X operating it and it could be curtailed to Peckham, but I digress. Yes Finchley Road Station or O2 would probably be realistic. I don't see why the 36 cannot be changed, the current level of service to Queens Park is a tad excessive. If TT's performance on the 13 so far is anything to go by then heaven help us if they get the 36! Oh dear, you've fallen into the trap regarding the 13 - as was pointed out before and on many other occasions, when a new operator takes on a route, it is not as plain sailing or easy as you think. It can take a while for things to settle down and as someone else pointed out, Metroline had trouble running the 82 and look how many years they've had. That's why I always wait for 6 months to a year before giving a judgement as if that's the case, the 322 & 432 would be very poor under Go-Ahead judging by the first 6-9 months but since then, both routes have improved greatly. Judging an operator on one route is ridiculous - no one can say how they would operate the 36 should they win and they should not just be judged on the 13 alone.
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Post by rmz19 on Jun 21, 2017 13:10:15 GMT
Yes Finchley Road Station or O2 would probably be realistic. I don't see why the 36 cannot be changed, the current level of service to Queens Park is a tad excessive. If TT's performance on the 13 so far is anything to go by then heaven help us if they get the 36! Oh dear, you've fallen into the trap regarding the 13 - as was pointed out before and on many other occasions, when a new operator takes on a route, it is not as plain sailing or easy as you think. It can take a while for things to settle down and as someone else pointed out, Metroline had trouble running the 82 and look how many years they've had. That's why I always wait for 6 months to a year before giving a judgement as if that's the case, the 322 & 432 would be very poor under Go-Ahead judging by the first 6-9 months but since then, both routes have improved greatly. Judging an operator on one route is ridiculous - no one can say how they would operate the 36 should they win and they should not just be judged on the 13 alone. Precisely. Quite how one can judge how a route will be operated by an operator because they're supposedly struggling with another is beyond me, an assumption like this is unwise and can easily be proven wrong. TT should be given some time to adjust to and familiarise with the 13. Regarding the 36, X is a stone's throw away from Queen's Park so it's ideal, as it would no longer be operated from NX it would be unecessary to terminate there so Peckham (or Camberwell at a push) would suffice.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 21, 2017 13:14:38 GMT
Precisely. Quite how one can judge how a route will be operated by an operator because they're supposedly struggling with another is beyond me, an assumption like this is unwise and can easily be proven wrong. TT should be given some time to adjust to and familiarise with the 13. Regarding the 36, X is a stone's throw away from Queen's Park so it's ideal, as it would no longer be operated from NX it would be unecessary to terminate there so Peckham (or Camberwell at a push) would suffice. I know when the 36 has previously gone out to tender, the specification stated that it would be extended to New Cross Gate, Sainsbury's. However I imagine that is there to allow fair competition to every operator. Should TT (or any other operator) win it I wonder if it will be extended to Sainsbury's or if TfL would use the opportunity to save a few pounds with a sizeable cut in the opposite direction as you say.
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Post by sid on Jun 21, 2017 13:23:32 GMT
Yes Finchley Road Station or O2 would probably be realistic. I don't see why the 36 cannot be changed, the current level of service to Queens Park is a tad excessive. If TT's performance on the 13 so far is anything to go by then heaven help us if they get the 36! Oh dear, you've fallen into the trap regarding the 13 - as was pointed out before and on many other occasions, when a new operator takes on a route, it is not as plain sailing or easy as you think. It can take a while for things to settle down and as someone else pointed out, Metroline had trouble running the 82 and look how many years they've had. That's why I always wait for 6 months to a year before giving a judgement as if that's the case, the 322 & 432 would be very poor under Go-Ahead judging by the first 6-9 months but since then, both routes have improved greatly. Judging an operator on one route is ridiculous - no one can say how they would operate the 36 should they win and they should not just be judged on the 13 alone. I did say "if TT's performance on the 13 so far is anything to go by".
Anyway TT have had the 13 for 2/3 months now so I'm not sure how long this settling in period should last? I'm afraid I don't really go along with this notion anyway, some operators take over routes and run them perfectly (well, as well as can reasonably be expected) from the outset.
I must say I don't recall Metroline having trouble running the 82.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 21, 2017 15:56:30 GMT
I did say "if TT's performance on the 13 so far is anything to go by".
Anyway TT have had the 13 for 2/3 months now so I'm not sure how long this settling in period should last? I'm afraid I don't really go along with this notion anyway, some operators take over routes and run them perfectly (well, as well as can reasonably be expected) from the outset.
I must say I don't recall Metroline having trouble running the 82.
Yes occasionally fair enough an operator manages the route fine straight after winning it. But it's completely unfair to expect a good service from day 1, the routes are controlled by human beings and with a lot of newly won routes the people probably won't have had experience controlling the route. Tower Transit haven't had much experience along the Finchley Road corridor and it will no doubt take a few months to get used to it. That said, route 69 is still a wreck over at LI. The route seems to like running in groups of threes However most of the other routes at LI are fine, even the 25 which operates quite well there now.
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Post by sid on Jun 21, 2017 16:03:34 GMT
I did say "if TT's performance on the 13 so far is anything to go by".
Anyway TT have had the 13 for 2/3 months now so I'm not sure how long this settling in period should last? I'm afraid I don't really go along with this notion anyway, some operators take over routes and run them perfectly (well, as well as can reasonably be expected) from the outset.
I must say I don't recall Metroline having trouble running the 82.
Yes occasionally fair enough an operator manages the route fine straight after winning it. But it's completely unfair to expect a good service from day 1, the routes are controlled by human beings and with a lot of newly won routes the people probably won't have had experience controlling the route. Tower Transit haven't had much experience along the Finchley Road corridor and it will no doubt take a few months to get used to it. That said, route 69 is still a wreck over at LI. The route seems to like running in groups of threes However most of the other routes at LI are fine, even the 25 which operates quite well there now. I don't think it is unfair quite honestly, that's what would be expected in any other line of business. The old phrase about failing to prepare is preparing to fail comes to mind and often staff are TUPE'd with the route. I don't know what the problem is with the 69?
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Post by vjaska on Jun 21, 2017 17:36:32 GMT
Oh dear, you've fallen into the trap regarding the 13 - as was pointed out before and on many other occasions, when a new operator takes on a route, it is not as plain sailing or easy as you think. It can take a while for things to settle down and as someone else pointed out, Metroline had trouble running the 82 and look how many years they've had. That's why I always wait for 6 months to a year before giving a judgement as if that's the case, the 322 & 432 would be very poor under Go-Ahead judging by the first 6-9 months but since then, both routes have improved greatly. Judging an operator on one route is ridiculous - no one can say how they would operate the 36 should they win and they should not just be judged on the 13 alone. I did say "if TT's performance on the 13 so far is anything to go by".
Anyway TT have had the 13 for 2/3 months now so I'm not sure how long this settling in period should last? I'm afraid I don't really go along with this notion anyway, some operators take over routes and run them perfectly (well, as well as can reasonably be expected) from the outset.
I must say I don't recall Metroline having trouble running the 82.
A post was made on here yesterday by someone who lived in the area of the 13 and whilst mentioning the issues of the current 13, also said that Metroline had some of the same issues when running the 82. 2/3 months is absolutely nothing in a 5 year contract - just because some routes manage to run great from the off means absolutely nothing because so many different factors come into play. No one is perfect and mistakes do and will happen so just give them the chance to turn it around.
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Post by sid on Jun 21, 2017 18:38:51 GMT
I did say "if TT's performance on the 13 so far is anything to go by".
Anyway TT have had the 13 for 2/3 months now so I'm not sure how long this settling in period should last? I'm afraid I don't really go along with this notion anyway, some operators take over routes and run them perfectly (well, as well as can reasonably be expected) from the outset.
I must say I don't recall Metroline having trouble running the 82.
A post was made on here yesterday by someone who lived in the area of the 13 and whilst mentioning the issues of the current 13, also said that Metroline had some of the same issues when running the 82. 2/3 months is absolutely nothing in a 5 year contract - just because some routes manage to run great from the off means absolutely nothing because so many different factors come into play. No one is perfect and mistakes do and will happen so just give them the chance to turn it around. I can't imagine any other business where 2/3 months of sub standard service would be anywhere near acceptable.
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Post by redbus on Jun 21, 2017 23:21:04 GMT
It was I who suggested that the performance of the 82 by Metroline in the periods prior to TT taking on the new 13 was less than stellar. I based this upon my own personal experience on the number of turns I saw and also wait time. Obviously this is very subjective being my perceptions so I took a quick look tonight at the TfL performance figures and the excess wait time in 2016/17 against 2015/6. Whilst in 2016/7 the number of periods that the excess wait time exceeded the minimum standard was double the number of periods this happened in the previous year, the figures were not as bad as I perceived. Nevertheless the figures were not exactly brilliant either! It is fair to say that under TT matters do seem worse and it will be interesting to see if the figures bear this out when published. Also if the Finchley Road changes hadn't happened and TT had just won the 82 with no other changes, I suspect there wouldn't be the complaints as a) there would not be the focus which the Finchley Road changes have given, and b) the 13 run by RATP to Aldywch would still exist which would hide a lot of the 82 problems.
I agree that from a customer or passenger perspective not getting the route running well in 2/3 months isn't good enough. Unfortunately that's not what counts and besides the other considerations mentioned, TfL rightly or wrongly do give Operators more time to get it right. Whether TfL should give operators so much time is another question!
I would add that I doubt any staff would have transferred (TUPE or not) from the 82 to the new 13. The 82 was run from Potters Bar which is a long way from Westbourne Park from where the 13 is run. There were also internal transfers within Metroline, as the 134 transferred to Potters Bar giving work to the bus 82 drivers.
Being the optimist, I am sure TT will soon get the 13 right.
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Post by T.R. on Jun 22, 2017 10:28:41 GMT
Here's a (worrying but likely) thought: How long before the 171 is curtailed to Aldwych and the 1 permanently curtailed to Holborn?
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Post by ian on Jun 23, 2017 8:25:38 GMT
Have TfL just given up on updating their spider and bus maps more generally? No sign of changes for Finchley rd changes let alone Central London ones.
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Post by rhys on Jun 23, 2017 8:46:15 GMT
Have TfL just given up on updating their spider and bus maps more generally? No sign of changes for Finchley rd changes let alone Central London ones. they have updated most spider maps with both the Finchley Road and Central London changes online.
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