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Post by snoggle on Nov 22, 2017 13:39:52 GMT
They seem to have done some very thorough research into where these routes will work. They could be onto a winner with the Shooters Hill Shot - plenty of money up the hill that can afford to skip the 486. Notable that its Kidbrooke leg partially follows the 386 - always wondered why that route wasn't switched to North Greenwich when the Jubilee Line opened. I imagine there'll be a lot of demand for expansion from areas that have been demanding services or improvements to services for years but have been ignored - Kidbrooke Village (the old Ferrier) for one, along with part of the 108 corridor through Blackheath. (I'll stop now before I start crayoning my own Chariot route...) One thought springs to mind with the North Greenwich service - I'd have applied for an alternative route to Lewisham as a contingency for the rare days the Jubilee Line goes up the wall; it'd be better than being stuck on the peninsula... Well one wonders whether they have a second and third tranche of possible routes already planned out. This round may be a taster to see how TfL react as licensing authority and infrastructure provider and then if the public respond. It will be interesting to see whether Oyster / Travelcard non acceptance remains a significant barrier to take up as it was for Docklands Minibus back in the 1980s or whether smartphones / apps / contactless payment is enough to lower barriers to travel for a reasonable slice of the commuting public. Although very unlikely it would be amusing if they were to accept cash on the bus and see how the public responded to that!! I also wonder what will happen in the off peak given all of these routes are peak direction services only - plenty of scope to make them bi-directional in the peak and to ease out the operating hours if the demand is there. Of course you run into Concessionary pass acceptance in the off peak hours and that's a matter for the operator / TfL / London Councils. Interesting times ahead given these routes are rather more "intrusive" than the CM2 night time bus from Highbury to Aldgate.
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Post by snowman on Nov 22, 2017 14:59:51 GMT
They seem to have done some very thorough research into where these routes will work. They could be onto a winner with the Shooters Hill Shot - plenty of money up the hill that can afford to skip the 486. Notable that its Kidbrooke leg partially follows the 386 - always wondered why that route wasn't switched to North Greenwich when the Jubilee Line opened. I imagine there'll be a lot of demand for expansion from areas that have been demanding services or improvements to services for years but have been ignored - Kidbrooke Village (the old Ferrier) for one, along with part of the 108 corridor through Blackheath. (I'll stop now before I start crayoning my own Chariot route...) One thought springs to mind with the North Greenwich service - I'd have applied for an alternative route to Lewisham as a contingency for the rare days the Jubilee Line goes up the wall; it'd be better than being stuck on the peninsula... Well one wonders whether they have a second and third tranche of possible routes already planned out. This round may be a taster to see how TfL react as licensing authority and infrastructure provider and then if the public respond. It will be interesting to see whether Oyster / Travelcard non acceptance remains a significant barrier to take up as it was for Docklands Minibus back in the 1980s or whether smartphones / apps / contactless payment is enough to lower barriers to travel for a reasonable slice of the commuting public. Although very unlikely it would be amusing if they were to accept cash on the bus and see how the public responded to that!! I also wonder what will happen in the off peak given all of these routes are peak direction services only - plenty of scope to make them bi-directional in the peak and to ease out the operating hours if the demand is there. Of course you run into Concessionary pass acceptance in the off peak hours and that's a matter for the operator / TfL / London Councils. Interesting times ahead given these routes are rather more "intrusive" than the CM2 night time bus from Highbury to Aldgate. I think these are clever start-up routes, as well, clearly aimed at a mix of filling in gaps, making a quicker journey, where the more wealthy commuters live to allow a premium fare. Bit early to tell, but presumably could time return journeys to meet trains etc. As yet we do not know what the off peak plans are, but presumably could be hired out for day trips for tourists, or like a social group hiring a minibus (as examples). No different to a bus Operator using spare buses for other jobs at quiet times. Regarding revenue and ticketing, this is going to be an unfavourable one if a user still needs a travelcard for whole journey, but if there is a simple lower fare (eg use chariot, pay X then use tube and pay Y for tube single fare, will this X+Y less be than travelcard ? Where new routes go and the clunkiness of the travelcard zones may affect this. Could it be a pain for TfL, probably. Could it expand (and alternative companies jump in), almost certainly. Will TfL be able to change its bus network quickly enough to close these network gaps before services get established, unlikely as it is cumbersome and buracratically slow. Could it create a 2 tier transport network, yes, but TfL already does that by having bus only passes as subset of travelcard. Actually, the more I think about it, the more the zonal fare system distorts certain journey prices per mile, so actually encourages people to get around the arbitary zone boundaries (with their lumpy price jumps for crossing) if they can find an alternative. I dont know if Docklands buses in 1980s are a good comparison, they ran a network in an area that was newly developed, and there was no bus network because as it had been derelict wasteland few years before. When eventually London buses (and then new DLR) moved in the lack of through ticketing became an issue, especially as it was residential only for a while (so had to travel away from area for work, no docklands offices then) I think at the time the Central Zone 1 was still split so there was more differentiation of pricing for through journeys (in central London). Some zone boundaries have moved since those days. (remember zone 5 and 6 were all 5, then called 3c, and bus journeys across zone 1 or 2 or 3 needed all the fare zones, not just start zone as now. The current system isn't directly comparable due to fare caps etc
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Nov 22, 2017 17:31:35 GMT
I think the implications of this are fascinating. The Nuxley Navigator is aimed squarely at the Erith Quarry development, so will get in there before any extension of the 180. And this makes me wonder if an enterprising developer will start subsidising this kind of service for a few years on one of their schemes (it'd be more effective than handing over Section 106 money to a council which will then do nothing).
And we already have plenty of riverside developments with effective two-tier transport systems in place courtesy of the Thames Clipper. Nice if you can afford it... (plus the Emirates Air Line, for the tiny handful of people who use it for work journeys).
As has already been said, Chariot also has the potential to exploit weakness in both the zonal fares system and the TfL fare freeze (allied with the slow death of the travelcard).
Let's say Ford charges £4 for each Chariot ride (it's $5 in San Francisco) and look again at the Nuxley Navigator.
2018 National Rail Oyster single from Erith to London terminals: £6.40 Chariot (£4) plus 2018 National Rail Oyster single (£4.10) from Abbey Wood to London terminals = £8.10.
Only £1.50 extra each way, and there are bound to be some offers for regular use. Not bad if you can afford it.
But once Crossrail opens, the maths are transformed for some journeys.
2018 NR/TfL Oyster through fare from Erith to Bond Street = £8 Chariot (£4) plus 2018 TfL single from Abbey Wood to Bond Street (£3.90) = £7.90
No-brainer.
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Post by snowman on Nov 22, 2017 19:00:58 GMT
There is also a potential comfort factor which will be a factor in any price difference Compare to spec of a TfL spec bus
Without knowing a final vehicle spec, could potentially include : Proper temperature controlled climate control No drafty opening windows in winter Wifi and/or USB charging sockets Comfortable high back seating, possibly leather faced (seat, not just standing room) Good Legroom Friendly drivers that don't hide behind assault screens Routes that keep moving rather than annoying passengers by killing time regulating service Non stop sections to minimise journey times
They will have the opportunity to choose and select suitable routes rather than being a universal service
Presumably there is nothing to stop them expanding on fringes of London and arranging a through ticket with a rail Operator, a chariot version of plus bus ticket
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Nov 22, 2017 20:13:04 GMT
Friendly drivers that don't hide behind assault screens I don't think that's a problem with London buses, most drivers are quite friendly already and they're not exactly "hiding", it's a safety measure they rightfully need. The amount of abuse some of them put up with would make it dangerous to not have one. I ended up on the 139 the other day because Oxford Circus and Bond Street stations were closed due to overcrowding and so did a lot of other people, the driver was very friendly offering advice to commuters who had to come out of autopilot mode to actually get to their stations. However he was met by an abusive passenger at Selfridges which was noticeably irritated and started bashing on the assault screen. He even made announcements and offered directions to people at Baker Street station, letting them know they could get the Bakerloo or Jubilee line from there to Oxford Circus/Bond St.
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Nov 22, 2017 21:20:33 GMT
London and no assault screens? Not gonna work. Too many neurotic lunatics with temper issues about.
Having said that, if anyone read the mini-article on route W9 with Sullivans in The Londoner buses magazine, it was mentioned due to large proportion of older demographics on the route, the buses received a special design of the shields - and indeed, I paid attention to it last time I did W9 and it was retractable and my driver actually rested their arm on the open bit.
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Post by redexpress on Nov 22, 2017 22:37:02 GMT
There is also a potential comfort factor which will be a factor in any price difference Compare to spec of a TfL spec bus Without knowing a final vehicle spec, could potentially include : Proper temperature controlled climate control No drafty opening windows in winter Wifi and/or USB charging sockets Comfortable high back seating, possibly leather faced (seat, not just standing room) Good Legroom Friendly drivers that don't hide behind assault screens Routes that keep moving rather than annoying passengers by killing time regulating service Non stop sections to minimise journey times They will have the opportunity to choose and select suitable routes rather than being a universal service Presumably there is nothing to stop them expanding on fringes of London and arranging a through ticket with a rail Operator, a chariot version of plus bus ticket Not to mention much less chance of having to share the vehicle with the great unwashed, random weirdos etc, which is still something that puts people off bus travel even if they wouldn't openly admit it. I think they stand a greater chance of success in outer London, especially with operating hours that only suit people who commute at traditional times. Closer to inner London people's travel patterns tend to be a bit more varied, so the limited operating hours might limit the attractiveness of the service. A tie-in with a rail operator as you suggest would make a lot of sense, not just in outer London but all over the commuter belt around London.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 22, 2017 23:59:52 GMT
I think they stand a greater chance of success in outer London, especially with operating hours that only suit people who commute at traditional times. Closer to inner London people's travel patterns tend to be a bit more varied, so the limited operating hours might limit the attractiveness of the service. A tie-in with a rail operator as you suggest would make a lot of sense, not just in outer London but all over the commuter belt around London. The PM peak is the difficult one for incomers. Demand is far more spread out and some of the "posh" clientel who may use this service may well work later or go for a drink / meal afterwards and then find there's no "Chariot" for them on the return. If the service is genuinely "demand responsive" then this may only be a short term issue but Londoners are used to buses connecting with tubes and trains late into the evening. An obvious, to me anyway, area for expansion is on in to Kent and the Medway Towns / Ebbsfleet. The bus service is far from marvellous and has worsened over recent years. Getting people home from key stations is likely to be attractive and the fare differential will be lower given commercial bus fares outside London. Easy to foresee a row of Chariots parked up outside Ebbsfleet HS1 station ready to whisk people home.
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Nov 23, 2017 1:04:54 GMT
There is also a potential comfort factor which will be a factor in any price difference Friendly drivers that don't hide behind assault screens London and no assault screens? Not gonna work. Too many neurotic lunatics with temper issues about. Having said that, if anyone read the mini-article on route W9 with Sullivans in The Londoner buses magazine, it mentioned due to large proportion of older demographics on the route, the buses received a special design of the shields - and indeed, I paid attention to it last time I did W9 and it was retractable and my driver actually rested their arm on the open bit. This digression has reminded me of when the Roundabout routes were introduced around Orpington - around the time I started going out and exploring the bus network. The little booklet put out by LRT had a cartoon of a friendly male driver, sat in his minibus, talking to a woman: "How did little Johnny get on his exams?" And I've known people who get commuter coaches to central London from Kent talk up having a regular driver that they get to know. (And you get this on some TfL routes, to an extent.) If you've a seat booked on the 7.40 each morning from Doing-Nicely Towers to a station a few miles away, that's going to be a factor for some.
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Post by ServerKing on Nov 23, 2017 6:03:18 GMT
Well if Ford just think they can walk in and "cream off" the bus network they might get a shock. TfL are NOT going to relinquish any sort of control so Ford may find they up against a formidable regulator if they try to barge in. London is not the USA. I accept the press article is probably littered with hyperbole but Citymapper have showed how to do this properly. The last thing we need is legions of 15 seater minibuses hurtling hither and thither on top of taxis, private hire vehiles and 10 million [1] white vans delivery parcels. [1] slight exaggeration here. Ford offered me subcontract work for their new TfL route 374 (Southgate-Ladywell) using my two seater Transit Connect van for their "Premier" passengers who want a vehicle to themselves, but I turned them down as it's just not gonna work plus, there is a problem of where to fit the SmartBlinds, let alone ETM and everything else in the van Surely they've seen other van-based schemes sink without trace and it's going to clog up roads. You would just book a cab, or do you really want to share your ride with 13 strangers? This is not Ghana where a minibus "tro-tro" can run along certain streets and people just jump in. Unless they target groups like hen nights if their Hummer breaks down, there is no point to this Sadiq, wanting to fit in, will sign this off though. It will peter out after a couple of months though
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Post by snoggle on Nov 23, 2017 12:07:13 GMT
Well if Ford just think they can walk in and "cream off" the bus network they might get a shock. TfL are NOT going to relinquish any sort of control so Ford may find they up against a formidable regulator if they try to barge in. London is not the USA. I accept the press article is probably littered with hyperbole but Citymapper have showed how to do this properly. The last thing we need is legions of 15 seater minibuses hurtling hither and thither on top of taxis, private hire vehiles and 10 million [1] white vans delivery parcels. [1] slight exaggeration here. Ford offered me subcontract work for their new TfL route 374 (Southgate-Ladywell) using my two seater Transit Connect van for their "Premier" passengers who want a vehicle to themselves, but I turned them down as it's just not gonna work plus, there is a problem of where to fit the SmartBlinds, let alone ETM and everything else in the van Surely they've seen other van-based schemes sink without trace and it's going to clog up roads. You would just book a cab, or do you really want to share your ride with 13 strangers? This is not Ghana where a minibus "tro-tro" can run along certain streets and people just jump in. Unless they target groups like hen nights if their Hummer breaks down, there is no point to this Sadiq, wanting to fit in, will sign this off though. It will peter out after a couple of months though I have to say this might be a rare occasion where I am less cynical than you. Clearly the risk sits with Ford to get this right and to carry any short term losses. For whatever reasons the minibus seems to be back in vogue and the ability to exploit new technology for fares / payments / booking the bus makes things different. There will be no ETM on board - possibly a smart card reader linked to a data storage device and no cash taken. There's nothing for anyone to steal hence the likelihood of a more friendly service. To some extent the Mayor and TfL have brought this on themselves. The Draft Transport Strategy (MTS) talks very clearly about "infill services" using "smaller minibus like vehicles". Some of that is no doubt TfL's own thinking but some will reflect approaches TfL and City Hall have had over a number of months. I doubt Citymapper and Ford are the only people to have made an approach. TfL are not really in much of a position to turn down these applications given what is in the MTS. It is only if there are real problems about stands / stop congestion or complaints from residents/councils over the proposed routes that could be raised as genuine issues. As already said TfL are not at all "fleet of foot" in being able to respond to competitive threats like this. If the services work and "chime" with the public then those who got in at the start have an upper hand in being able to expand their existing services or add more routes. TfL has to live with the consequences on its own routes. If it decided to "compete" then where's the money coming from for new routes / vehicles and tech? If it tries to run the newcomers off the road then you can imagine the press headlines - "TfL acting like a bully" "TfL depriving us of our nice bus service" "TfL killing off innovation in so called "Open London" " etc etc etc. The Mayor won't like any of that given his hyper sensitivity to criticism. If Ford get the launch publicity right, pitch the fares carefully and run a reliable service then I can see several of the routes doing OK. One or two I'm more sceptical about to be honest and they might die quickly. I don't think we've heard the last of this sort of "new" bus service.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 29, 2018 18:19:36 GMT
It would appear that some of the Chariot services are up and running today. If you go to the website www.chariot.com/routes and then click on one the routes you can see the vehicles moving along the routes. The Nuxley Navigator and the one serving North Greenwich both have vehicles running this PM peak. The 4 routes in operation only have 2 or 3 minibuses shuttling back and forth at present. Two of the routes, in Southwark and Fulham, are not on the map so I assume they have missed their start date or don't have a PM peak service. Fares are £2.40 pay as you go but you have to buy "credits" up front which I assume are deducted on the bus. Weekly and monthly passes also exist and there are peak direction only passes too which is a bit different for London. EDIT - I see TfL have not approved applications for the Fulham and Southwark routes. Interesting as they are in more urban areas.
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Post by Hassaan on Jan 29, 2018 18:36:35 GMT
It would appear that some of the Chariot services are up and running today. If you go to the website www.chariot.com/routes and then click on one the routes you can see the vehicles moving along the routes. The Nuxley Navigator and the one serving North Greenwich both have vehicles running this PM peak. The 4 routes in operation only have 2 or 3 minibuses shuttling back and forth at present. Two of the routes, in Southwark and Fulham, are not on the map so I assume they have missed their start date or don't have a PM peak service. All 4 routes appear to be tracking for me. The Battersea Bullet and Wandsworth Wanderer run 1600-2000, while the Shooters Hill Shot and Nuxley Navigator run 1630-1930
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Post by snoggle on Jan 29, 2018 18:37:54 GMT
It would appear that some of the Chariot services are up and running today. If you go to the website www.chariot.com/routes and then click on one the routes you can see the vehicles moving along the routes. The Nuxley Navigator and the one serving North Greenwich both have vehicles running this PM peak. The 4 routes in operation only have 2 or 3 minibuses shuttling back and forth at present. Two of the routes, in Southwark and Fulham, are not on the map so I assume they have missed their start date or don't have a PM peak service. All 4 routes appear to be tracking for me. The Battersea Bullet and Wandsworth Wanderer run 1600-2000, while the Shooters Hill Shot and Nuxley Navigator run 1630-1930 Agreed - only a couple of minibuses on the Wandsworth and Battersea ones.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 12, 2018 19:10:08 GMT
Seems some residents in Greenwich borough are not happy about Chariot minibuses. Short article on BBC London News this evening with residents complaining about the minibuses on "their" streets and about the virtual bus stops. They are saying they weren't consulted - not strictly true as there was a public consultation albeit buried on the TfL website. Apparently the local boroughs were consulted but I wonder if local councillors said anything or spoke to any locals. The residents have said the problem is for TfL to solve as TfL should tell Chariot where the buses can run. TfL were quoted as saying they only check the route is "safe". Chariot were quoted as saying they have all the requisite licences and permissions. Looks like something that will run and run.
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