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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 10:37:57 GMT
This thread is to discuss creations of how the tube map can be changed. Can be as realistic or unrealistic as you want it to be.
I've thought of the possibility of a tube map where all the stations on one line have to begin with the same letter. This is very unrealistic and will never happen but here's what I've come up with for the letter H. Note that the stations don't have to be actual stations, but can be places in London
The brackets will indicate what borough and what zone each station is in
In a clockwise direction around London: Main part of the line: Heston (Hounslow, 4) Hounslow West (Hounslow, 5) Hatton Cross (Hillingdon, 5/6) Heathrow Terminal 4 (Hillingdon, 6) Heathrow Terminals 1, 2 and 3 (Hillingdon, 6) Heathrow Terminal 5 (Hillingdon, 6) Harmondsworth (Hillingdon, 6) Harlington (Hillingdon, 5) Hayes (Hillingdon, 5) Hayes End (Hillingdon, 5) Hillingdon Heath (Hillingdon, 6) Hillingdon (Hillingdon, 6) Harefield (Hillingdon, 6) Hatch End (Harrow, 6) Harrow Weald (Harrow, 6)
Then the line will split into two branches at Harrow Weald, then joining at Heston (via East London) Branch 1: Harrow Weald (Harrow, 6) Hendon (Barnet, 3/4) Hampstead Garden Suburb (Barnet, 3) Hampstead Heath (Camden, 3) (Note that station would be on the north side of Hampstead Heath) Highgate (Haringey, 3) Hackney (Hackney, 2) Homerton (Hackney, 2) Hackney Wick (Hackney, 2) Haggerston (Hackney, 2) Hoxton (Hackney, 1/2) Holborn (Camden, 1) Herne Hill (Lambeth, 2/3) Hayes (Bromley, 5) Hackbridge (Sutton, 4) Hook (Kingston, 6) Hampton Wick (Richmond, 6) Hampton Court (Richmond, 6) Hampton (Richmond, 6) Hampton Hill (Richmond, 6) Hanworth (Hounslow, 6) Hounslow South (Hounslow, 5) Hounslow Central (Hounslow, 4) Hounslow East (Hounslow, 4) Heston (Hounslow, 4)
Branch 2: Harrow Weald (Harrow, 6) Harrow (Harrow, 5) Hanwell (Ealing, 4) Hanger Lane (Ealing, 3) Harlesden (Brent, 3) Hampstead (Camden, 2/3) Holloway (Islington, 2) Highbury (Islington, 2) Harringay (Haringey, 3) Hornsey (Haringey, 3) High Barnet (Barnet, 5) Hadley Wood (Enfield, 6) Highams Park (Waltham Forest, 4) Hainault (Redbridge, 4) Havering-atte-Bower (Havering, 6) Harold Wood (Havering, 6) Hornchurch (Havering, 6) Hither Green (Lewisham, 4) Honor Oak (Lewisham, 3) Herne Hill (Lambeth, 2/3) (Connects with Branch 1) Hammersmith (Hammersmith and Fulham, 2) Heston (Hounslow, 4)
Note that this would never be created, but is just a fun idea. Each letter of the alphabet would have its own line (except J, X, Z), and would only call at stations beginning with that letter. South Harrow would call at S but not H because it uses the first letter of the first word. All lines would be underground. The benefits would be new links between places, for instance, Herne Hill to Hammersmith is only 1 stop. Where trains call at existing stations, there would be connections to the current London Underground. However, this new metro system cannot connect to any other line (ie H line cannot connect with S line), but can connect via the current London Underground. Also some journeys would be particularly long, such as Hammersmith to Harlesden (via Heathrow), which is 19 stops.
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Post by twobellstogo on Jan 9, 2021 10:43:33 GMT
Rather more realistic, but I have long thought the current tube map is no longer as fit for purpose as it could be.
I think TfL should seriously consider only having two maps : the current ‘all lines’ map showing all train lines in the Oyster/contactless area, and a second map showing only lines/stations that have a minimum of 10 trains an hour/a train every 6 mins, off peak Mon-Sat.
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Post by kmkcheng on Jan 9, 2021 11:14:39 GMT
I think TfL should seriously consider only having two maps : the current ‘all lines’ map showing all train lines in the Oyster/contactless area, and a second map showing only lines/stations that have a minimum of 10 trains an hour/a train every 6 mins, off peak Mon-Sat. What about parts of the tube network that don’t meet the 10 trains an hour/ 6 minutes criteria. Would they be excluded from the map? The metropolitan line branches beyond Harrow would disappear, the Uxbridge branch of the Piccadilly line and there are probably others as well
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Post by Green Kitten on Jan 9, 2021 11:17:07 GMT
The paper tube maps need to be larger.
Thameslink on the tube map looks convoluted as hell - especially the central section, where it zig zags where it clearly doesn’t need to be if stations are placed in a smarter way. It overall needs a bit of a reshape.
There should be different styled lines for each mode, so that London Overground can have separate colours. Hollow line for Overground, thicker line for Crossrail, dashed line for the DLR, thinner line for the trams.
Once I’m done with my map, I’ll have a go on the tube map and see what I come up with!
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Post by twobellstogo on Jan 9, 2021 12:09:03 GMT
I think TfL should seriously consider only having two maps : the current ‘all lines’ map showing all train lines in the Oyster/contactless area, and a second map showing only lines/stations that have a minimum of 10 trains an hour/a train every 6 mins, off peak Mon-Sat. What about parts of the tube network that don’t meet the 10 trains an hour/ 6 minutes criteria. Would they be excluded from the map? The metropolitan line branches beyond Harrow would disappear, the Uxbridge branch of the Piccadilly line and there are probably others as well Yep. But of course conversely a few National Rail services would then be added : Clapham Junction - Waterloo/Victoria and London Bridge - Charing Cross/Cannon Street to name but two.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 12:24:06 GMT
I think TfL should seriously consider only having two maps : the current ‘all lines’ map showing all train lines in the Oyster/contactless area, and a second map showing only lines/stations that have a minimum of 10 trains an hour/a train every 6 mins, off peak Mon-Sat. What about parts of the tube network that don’t meet the 10 trains an hour/ 6 minutes criteria. Would they be excluded from the map? The metropolitan line branches beyond Harrow would disappear, the Uxbridge branch of the Piccadilly line and there are probably others as well That would make it confusing, since not all of the line has frequencies higher/lower than 10tph. I would suggest having one map for London Underground lines only, one map for other lines but not National Rail (Overground, Trams, Cable Car, DLR, Tfl Rail (not sure about this one)), and a third map for National Rail services only. It would also be nice to have a more geographical map, such as Paddington and Lancaster Gate being closer to each other than they are on the map, so tourists don't think they need to change at Notting Hill Gate.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 9, 2021 13:27:13 GMT
Rather more realistic, but I have long thought the current tube map is no longer as fit for purpose as it could be. I think TfL should seriously consider only having two maps : the current ‘all lines’ map showing all train lines in the Oyster/contactless area, and a second map showing only lines/stations that have a minimum of 10 trains an hour/a train every 6 mins, off peak Mon-Sat. I’d go further and say just have one map which would be the London Rail Map which shows all lines like your first map but produce the map in a bigger form.
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Post by thekbq14 on Jan 11, 2021 3:58:04 GMT
I posted what I wanted to change on the GTR thread. Long story short was to have on big London Rail Map basically a merge of the tube and London Connections Map. Then from there map of Tube/Underground only, Original Orbital Overground with actual lines, DLR, Tram, Current National Rail Metro trains that terminate in and around London with Overground trains that terminate in Zone 1 and Crossrail/Tfl Rail/Thameslink - With each section having there own map. Could try to design, edit and change that I'll do to the tube map and these extra maps. I also believe the Zone system should be redesigned to messy should be done broken evenly by 6 to the end of the GLA and then from there extensions of Zones. As I find it a joke that they've ran out of zones and weren't forward thinking about it also makes no sense to me how Chigwell in Essex is in Zone 4 whilst places like East Croydon and Bromley South is in Zone 5, yet Bromley North is in Zone 4 doesn't make sense. And don't get on to me about the Stratford International branch being in Zone 2/3.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2021 7:53:51 GMT
I posted what I wanted to change on the GTR thread. Long story short was to have on big London Rail Map basically a merge of the tube and London Connections Map. Then from there map of Tube/Underground only, Original Orbital Overground with actual lines, DLR, Tram, Current National Rail Metro trains that terminate in and around London with Overground trains that terminate in Zone 1 and Crossrail/Tfl Rail/Thameslink - With each section having there own map. Could try to design, edit and change that I'll do to the tube map and these extra maps. I also believe the Zone system should be redesigned to messy should be done broken evenly by 6 to the end of the GLA and then from there extensions of Zones. As I find it a joke that they've ran out of zones and weren't forward thinking about it also makes no sense to me how Chigwell in Essex is in Zone 4 whilst places like East Croydon and Bromley South is in Zone 5, yet Bromley North is in Zone 4 doesn't make sense. And don't get on to me about the Stratford International branch being in Zone 2/3. The zones were made like that to reduce the fares. A zone 1 to 4 journey is cheaper than a zone 1 to 5 journey. Hence why stations such as Chigwell moved from 5 to 4. However I do agree that the Tfl zoning system needs changing. Stations on the border of London should really be in Zones 5 or 6, and stations not near the border, that are currently in 6 should be in 5. Here's what I would change (if it wasn't for fares): Kingston 6 to 5 (not on Tfl border) Worcester Park, Burnt Oak, Queensbury, Totteridge & Whetstone, all stations on Hainault loop that were previously in 5: 4 to 5 (some are on the border, or quite close) Bushey 8 to 7 (hardly outside London, yet Watford and even Chorleywood are in 7 despite the latter being outside the M25) Chorleywood 7 to 8
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Post by wirewiper on Jan 11, 2021 10:31:22 GMT
I posted what I wanted to change on the GTR thread. Long story short was to have on big London Rail Map basically a merge of the tube and London Connections Map. Then from there map of Tube/Underground only, Original Orbital Overground with actual lines, DLR, Tram, Current National Rail Metro trains that terminate in and around London with Overground trains that terminate in Zone 1 and Crossrail/Tfl Rail/Thameslink - With each section having there own map. Could try to design, edit and change that I'll do to the tube map and these extra maps. I also believe the Zone system should be redesigned to messy should be done broken evenly by 6 to the end of the GLA and then from there extensions of Zones. As I find it a joke that they've ran out of zones and weren't forward thinking about it also makes no sense to me how Chigwell in Essex is in Zone 4 whilst places like East Croydon and Bromley South is in Zone 5, yet Bromley North is in Zone 4 doesn't make sense. And don't get on to me about the Stratford International branch being in Zone 2/3. The problem you have is that the Greater London boundary is not at an even uniform radius from the centre - Chigwell for instance is outside, whereas Upminster is further out yet inside. What do you mean by "they ran out of zones"? And why should the Stratford International branch not be boundary zones 2/3? That was done deliberately to stimulate development in the Olympic Park and in the Stratford/West Ham/Canning Town area generally.
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Post by thekbq14 on Jan 11, 2021 11:56:45 GMT
I posted what I wanted to change on the GTR thread. Long story short was to have on big London Rail Map basically a merge of the tube and London Connections Map. Then from there map of Tube/Underground only, Original Orbital Overground with actual lines, DLR, Tram, Current National Rail Metro trains that terminate in and around London with Overground trains that terminate in Zone 1 and Crossrail/Tfl Rail/Thameslink - With each section having there own map. Could try to design, edit and change that I'll do to the tube map and these extra maps. I also believe the Zone system should be redesigned to messy should be done broken evenly by 6 to the end of the GLA and then from there extensions of Zones. As I find it a joke that they've ran out of zones and weren't forward thinking about it also makes no sense to me how Chigwell in Essex is in Zone 4 whilst places like East Croydon and Bromley South is in Zone 5, yet Bromley North is in Zone 4 doesn't make sense. And don't get on to me about the Stratford International branch being in Zone 2/3. The zones were made like that to reduce the fares. A zone 1 to 4 journey is cheaper than a zone 1 to 5 journey. Hence why stations such as Chigwell moved from 5 to 4. However I do agree that the Tfl zoning system needs changing. Stations on the border of London should really be in Zones 5 or 6, and stations not near the border, that are currently in 6 should be in 5. Here's what I would change (if it wasn't for fares): Kingston 6 to 5 (not on Tfl border) Worcester Park, Burnt Oak, Queensbury, Totteridge & Whetstone, all stations on Hainault loop that were previously in 5: 4 to 5 (some are on the border, or quite close) Bushey 8 to 7 (hardly outside London, yet Watford and even Chorleywood are in 7 despite the latter being outside the M25) Chorleywood 7 to 8 I'm aware the reason why with Chigwell, you also forgot to mentioned that local council subsidize fares for the local people in the area hence the drop in Zone and cheaper fare but I still feel like it could of been done in a certain way where local residents get a specific discount to the oyster card directly or whatever and will make it more of an enticement to go to the area. But do agree with your changes
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Post by thekbq14 on Jan 11, 2021 12:34:09 GMT
I posted what I wanted to change on the GTR thread. Long story short was to have on big London Rail Map basically a merge of the tube and London Connections Map. Then from there map of Tube/Underground only, Original Orbital Overground with actual lines, DLR, Tram, Current National Rail Metro trains that terminate in and around London with Overground trains that terminate in Zone 1 and Crossrail/Tfl Rail/Thameslink - With each section having there own map. Could try to design, edit and change that I'll do to the tube map and these extra maps. I also believe the Zone system should be redesigned to messy should be done broken evenly by 6 to the end of the GLA and then from there extensions of Zones. As I find it a joke that they've ran out of zones and weren't forward thinking about it also makes no sense to me how Chigwell in Essex is in Zone 4 whilst places like East Croydon and Bromley South is in Zone 5, yet Bromley North is in Zone 4 doesn't make sense. And don't get on to me about the Stratford International branch being in Zone 2/3. The problem you have is that the Greater London boundary is not at an even uniform radius from the centre - Chigwell for instance is outside, whereas Upminster is further out yet inside. What do you mean by "they ran out of zones"? And why should the Stratford International branch not be boundary zones 2/3? That was done deliberately to stimulate development in the Olympic Park and in the Stratford/West Ham/Canning Town area generally. That's very true that the shape of London is not uniform at all you have places like Chessington and South Ockenden that stick out in odd shapes so that doesn't make it easier and I am aware that the GLA boundary is a modern and more political sense of boundary, but it's still a boundary and to me doesn't make sense how people in actual London areas that pay London tax, vote for London mayors etc. in some cases pay more for travel then outside especially places like Chigwell that were previously meant to be implemented in London but voted not to do so back in the 1960s, even though that's nearly 60 years ago and local residents now probably didn't have a chance to vote back then as they were too young. And like said above I'm aware of Chigwell being a rare situation as the council subsidize it's fees for the local area hence the lower zone but explained in a previous post what I'd do to change it. Running out of zones I'm referring to is the whole business of the fact that oysters can only have up to 15 Zones that they can use due to it's hexadecimal format obviously as we know Zone 1 to 6 being the main ones that forms circular rings around and then from there oyster fare zones started expanding, but not continual circles but in patches of rail lines that are add and doesn't add consistency, now I'm aware that these areas are all outside of the GLA boundary line, but from Zone 10 there should of been more forward thinking about the whole situation especially with there plan to take over metro National Rail service, I know that won't happen now due to money but it's always in the timeline. Instead seemed like each new station or branch just got it's own zone, like why are Gatwick and Shenfield by themselves. I get they're far away but it's just a waste of zones imo. And now you have the tfl rail stations from Slough to Reading, stations out to Luton Airport Parkway and Welwyn Garden City being contactless. Now, I know everyone is switching to contactless and it's the in thing and at times it can be cheaper then oyster, even better that the NR ticket price could be cheaper then the oyster, another inconsistency that needs to be replaced. But not everyone has a contactless myself included which could alienate users from using there card. Ironically though I know there are rumours where tfl want to replace, the Oyster Card with Contactless which I guess would be cheaper for them in the long run etc with less maintenance and production of card but they could turn the Oyster Card of some sort of Loyalty card but again I know tfl well they market themselves as a non-profit/we use all your money into our service organisation so I don't see that happening. With DLR Stratford International Branch again I understand the change, Stratford was originally in Zone 3 with the Olympics being in the area, regeneration in Westfield and new houses, it being a hub in East London Services with quick service times, they wanted people to come to this area. And with journeys being Zone 3 to Zone 1 being more expensive then Zone 2 to Zone 1, they wanted it to bring it down a zone for those that would of preferred to transfer in Central London but we all know how busy it is there so tfl wanted people to use region transport hubs Stratford being one to interchange. But then saying that the area is geographically a bit too far out to be Zone 2 and it's close with places in the boroughs of Newham, Waltham Forest, Redbridge and Barking and Dagenham being further east they still wanted it to be Zone 3 so people from this area can still transfer and have cheaper fares to the shops and attractions in the area. I get why it's done not disagreeing with you gives Stratford the best of both worlds and a border of Inner and Outer East London and a transport hub for the area but then kind of shows how flawed the zones are in that you have a whole line being split in 2 Zones because it doesn't work out to be in one or the other, I understand if it's places on a Border like a Crystal Palace being Zone 3/4 for example or another transport hub like Willesden Junction in Zone 2/3 but not a whole line. But guess again with the area of Old Oak Common not being far from Willesden Junction and that area going through regeneration I wonder what zone that will be as it's similar to the Stratford development for the Olympics, just last stations being built. Also is smart the boundary zones as it is a cheat code in the system as it does give them an extra zone some what by putting two in one. Guess it's easy to compare to Shepherd's Bush redevelopment which has White City on the edge of it with it being in Zone 2/3, rest being Zone 2 but then can argue that it has an OSI with Wood Lane, would of been the same station but it's cheaper to be built separately and that's on Zone 2 by itself, so kind of contradictory. Guess you can't make everyone happy with this but all I want is a more simplified, easier zone system and tube map, if no one understands it I'll copy my post from the GTR thread here.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2021 15:21:21 GMT
The zones were made like that to reduce the fares. A zone 1 to 4 journey is cheaper than a zone 1 to 5 journey. Hence why stations such as Chigwell moved from 5 to 4. However I do agree that the Tfl zoning system needs changing. Stations on the border of London should really be in Zones 5 or 6, and stations not near the border, that are currently in 6 should be in 5. Here's what I would change (if it wasn't for fares): Kingston 6 to 5 (not on Tfl border) Worcester Park, Burnt Oak, Queensbury, Totteridge & Whetstone, all stations on Hainault loop that were previously in 5: 4 to 5 (some are on the border, or quite close) Bushey 8 to 7 (hardly outside London, yet Watford and even Chorleywood are in 7 despite the latter being outside the M25) Chorleywood 7 to 8 I'm aware the reason why with Chigwell, you also forgot to mentioned that local council subsidize fares for the local people in the area hence the drop in Zone and cheaper fare but I still feel like it could of been done in a certain way where local residents get a specific discount to the oyster card directly or whatever and will make it more of an enticement to go to the area. But do agree with your changes Even Barnes could merit a zone change from 3 to 2/3. That would probably mean that Putney would be only in 2, since I think having 2 consecutive stations on a line on a border zone (ie West Ham and Bromley by Bow) isn't right. That's why I disagree with the introduction of the zone 2/3 in east London. Other Tfl Zone faults include (not considering fares): Notting Hill Gate being in zone 1/2, since High Street Kensington is in Zone 1, and Earl's Court is in Zone 1/2. As it is, only central line passengers benefit. Even North Acton should really be in Zone 3, since the London Overground nearby is in Zone 3 at Acton Central and doesn't reach Zone 2 until Willesden Junction.
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Post by Dillon95 on Jan 17, 2021 0:35:19 GMT
I’d ditch the ‘Tube Map’ and just have the one with National Rail on it. But they really need to colour code the Overground and stop pretending that the whole network is one line when it’s clearly not. They need to make it a bit more geographically accurate as well. Look how far away Watford and Watford Junction are from each other on both maps for instance!
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 17, 2021 1:00:23 GMT
Reading this discussion I decided to have a bit of fun to see how tube zones by distance could potentially look, keeping in mind the proposed re-zoning of Canary Wharf to Zone 1 and while using the M25 as the London boundary. i.imgur.com/LSN3hrh.pngCertainly far from perfect, however hopefully gives an idea of where exactly some zonal changes could take place. Something interesting is that while places like Richmond. Stratford and Canning Town will probably fall into solid zone 2 as opposed to a 2/3 split if distances were used. Although there are many notable flaws with my quick mock up due to the zig zag nature of the London boundary. Dartford isn't much further out than Hornchurch is in terms of distance from Central London although one is noticeably further out using the currently used Zonal system. Croydon and Edgware also fall into Zone 4 under my mock up, it's on a similar radius overall to Barking, Ilford, Wembley and Gants Hill. Upminster actually falls into Zone 7 too, showing how far Zone 6 stretches out East, but not so much elsewhere as Upminster seems to be on a similar radius to that of Weybridge, Watford and Chesthunt. Due to the size of Heathrow, Zone 5 also seems to potentially fall under another zone as opposed to the current Z6 it's in.
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