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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 28, 2023 16:04:29 GMT
East Londoners - there's been pushes by the local Labour constituency in Cann Hall previously to add a station in Cann Hall on the Gospel Oak to Barking Line? To those nearby, would this be worth it? Or do Leytonstone High Road and Wanstead Park suffice as stations adequate enough to serve Cann Hall? Admittedly it would be very close to both of them. www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/9560443.waltham-forest-campaign-new-station-leytonstone/Seems this is now the 3rd station there have been pushes to open on the GOBLIN: Tufnell Park, Cann Hall and Castle Green Where would Castle Green be? Between Barking and Barking Riverside. To the east of the Thames View Estate.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 28, 2023 18:23:09 GMT
East Londoners - there's been pushes by the local Labour constituency in Cann Hall previously to add a station in Cann Hall on the Gospel Oak to Barking Line? To those nearby, would this be worth it? Or do Leytonstone High Road and Wanstead Park suffice as stations adequate enough to serve Cann Hall? Admittedly it would be very close to both of them. www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/9560443.waltham-forest-campaign-new-station-leytonstone/Seems this is now the 3rd station there have been pushes to open on the GOBLIN: Tufnell Park, Cann Hall and Castle Green What a waste of time and money, it is not feasible and a joke imo. It is not even a busy area and more residential. I would rather see St. Anns Rd station reopened than to create a new station there. Or a station at Bakers Arms is more feasible. It is laughable at poor transport links, it is well connected and around 3-4 bus stops away from Wanstead Park. I just realise that the article was from 2012!!!!!
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 28, 2023 20:53:58 GMT
East Londoners - there's been pushes by the local Labour constituency in Cann Hall previously to add a station in Cann Hall on the Gospel Oak to Barking Line? To those nearby, would this be worth it? Or do Leytonstone High Road and Wanstead Park suffice as stations adequate enough to serve Cann Hall? Admittedly it would be very close to both of them. www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/9560443.waltham-forest-campaign-new-station-leytonstone/Seems this is now the 3rd station there have been pushes to open on the GOBLIN: Tufnell Park, Cann Hall and Castle Green What a waste of time and money, it is not feasible and a joke imo. It is not even a busy area and more residential. I would rather see St. Anns Rd station reopened than to create a new station there. Or a station at Bakers Arms is more feasible. It is laughable at poor transport links, it is well connected and around 3-4 bus stops away from Wanstead Park. I just realise that the article was from 2012!!!!! Yes I agree that St Ann's Road should take priority especially as St Ann's Hospital is right around the corner. Not sure on what the catchment area for referrals is though.
I reckon if they were to re-instate the station it should be closer to Hermitage Road perhaps? There looks to be more space to build a station there, it encapsulates more of the residential area and isn't as close to South Tottenham.
Bakers Arms wouldn't be a bad shout either to be fair. There does also look like there is space for that as well. Given you're local to the area, I at least thought that the north-south link from Cann Hall might encourage a modal shift from the 58 to the Overground - because by the looks of things (40 minutes from Walthamstow to Cann Hall in the peaks versus a 6-7 minute journey by train!) its a slow journey at present. Or has the Overground already stolen some patronage particularly as it serves Wanstead Park and Leyton Midland Road?
Would you agree on Tufnell Park given the direct interchange with the Northern Line?
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 28, 2023 21:47:57 GMT
Obviously the East London Line has now gone and taken over by London Overground with extensions north to Dalston Junction/Highbury Islington and Crystal Palace/West Croydon and Clapham Junction in the south. It is fair to say the take over by London Overground has been a success. However when I go through New Cross it seems quite simple to stick a set of points and double line between Canal Junction and New Cross to bring trains on to the mainline, this could open useful services to Bromley North/Orpington and maybe Dartford. I wonder if this may happen in the future? Of course this message is coming up to 2 years old now however as we had seen last winter with the reduction in services on the Southeastern network (which also meant routes like the Hayes line no longer serving Cannon St, that's the only one off the top of my head however I'm not sure on whether other Cannon St services were added/removed) there are now paths freed up through St John's, so I wonder whether an extension of the Overground into South London could be seen as more feasible.
Are the lines through Grove Park still at capacity because I do wonder whether, perhaps on a 30 minute headway like the existing line, the London Overground could cross over the fasts to the Bromley North Line without any trouble? The other 2 trains per hour could go somewhere else, perhaps Beckenham Junction? I know there are proposals for the Bakerloo Line to be extended to Hayes/Beckenham Junction however I don't think they're realistic at all because I don't think the Mid-Kent Line would justify such an intense frequency. I can see a Beckenham Junction extension as advantageous though, I should imagine there is demand from Catford/Lower Sydenham for the Jubilee Line at Canada Water for destinations beyond, and for Surrey Quays shopping centre. Services such as the 47 and 199 emptying out bucket loads of passengers at Canada Water in my opinion proves this. Likewise with the 208 and 261, there are lots of long distance passengers from Lewisham to Bromley, and in the case of the 261 this would serve as an alternative.
I'm aware my recent posts probably make it look like I'm obsessed with rail improvements and the London Overground in particular, but I always believe that when you build something, they come. The Elizabeth Line is now the busiest railway line in the country, and 30% of that demand was created out of thin air. Not to say that the New Cross branch is at all useless, although I can see an x15 headway to Lewisham being popular, especially at a station where interchanging is quite normal, with x30 headways to Bromley and Beckenham.
Beckenham Junction might have a slightly better case for it given Southeastern have reduced their service into London to an x30 frequency.
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Post by VMH2537 on Jul 28, 2023 23:23:49 GMT
Obviously the East London Line has now gone and taken over by London Overground with extensions north to Dalston Junction/Highbury Islington and Crystal Palace/West Croydon and Clapham Junction in the south. It is fair to say the take over by London Overground has been a success. However when I go through New Cross it seems quite simple to stick a set of points and double line between Canal Junction and New Cross to bring trains on to the mainline, this could open useful services to Bromley North/Orpington and maybe Dartford. I wonder if this may happen in the future? Of course this message is coming up to 2 years old now however as we had seen last winter with the reduction in services on the Southeastern network (which also meant routes like the Hayes line no longer serving Cannon St, that's the only one off the top of my head however I'm not sure on whether other Cannon St services were added/removed) there are now paths freed up through St John's, so I wonder whether an extension of the Overground into South London could be seen as more feasible.
Are the lines through Grove Park still at capacity because I do wonder whether, perhaps on a 30 minute headway like the existing line, the London Overground could cross over the fasts to the Bromley North Line without any trouble? The other 2 trains per hour could go somewhere else, perhaps Beckenham Junction? I know there are proposals for the Bakerloo Line to be extended to Hayes/Beckenham Junction however I don't think they're realistic at all because I don't think the Mid-Kent Line would justify such an intense frequency. I can see a Beckenham Junction extension as advantageous though, I should imagine there is demand from Catford/Lower Sydenham for the Jubilee Line at Canada Water for destinations beyond, and for Surrey Quays shopping centre. Services such as the 47 and 199 emptying out bucket loads of passengers at Canada Water in my opinion proves this. Likewise with the 208 and 261, there are lots of long distance passengers from Lewisham to Bromley, and in the case of the 261 this would serve as an alternative.
I'm aware my recent posts probably make it look like I'm obsessed with rail improvements and the London Overground in particular, but I always believe that when you build something, they come. The Elizabeth Line is now the busiest railway line in the country, and 30% of that demand was created out of thin air. Not to say that the New Cross branch is at all useless, although I can see an x15 headway to Lewisham being popular, especially at a station where interchanging is quite normal, with x30 headways to Bromley and Beckenham.
Beckenham Junction might have a slightly better case for it given Southeastern have reduced their service into London to an x30 frequency. There will be significant practical difficulties extending the Overground on the Southeastern network, mainly on how the lines are at capacity and will likely require digital signalling to reduce headways. That specific branch is currently much better of as a self-contained line. TfL has proposed increasing the line to 6tph making it less likely to pursue. Remember, the Southeastern metro network can all achieve a minimum 4tph on each lines as most were pre-covid, but sadly has been pressured by cuts from the operator and the DfT's lack of strategy.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 28, 2023 23:48:01 GMT
Of course this message is coming up to 2 years old now however as we had seen last winter with the reduction in services on the Southeastern network (which also meant routes like the Hayes line no longer serving Cannon St, that's the only one off the top of my head however I'm not sure on whether other Cannon St services were added/removed) there are now paths freed up through St John's, so I wonder whether an extension of the Overground into South London could be seen as more feasible.
Are the lines through Grove Park still at capacity because I do wonder whether, perhaps on a 30 minute headway like the existing line, the London Overground could cross over the fasts to the Bromley North Line without any trouble? The other 2 trains per hour could go somewhere else, perhaps Beckenham Junction? I know there are proposals for the Bakerloo Line to be extended to Hayes/Beckenham Junction however I don't think they're realistic at all because I don't think the Mid-Kent Line would justify such an intense frequency. I can see a Beckenham Junction extension as advantageous though, I should imagine there is demand from Catford/Lower Sydenham for the Jubilee Line at Canada Water for destinations beyond, and for Surrey Quays shopping centre. Services such as the 47 and 199 emptying out bucket loads of passengers at Canada Water in my opinion proves this. Likewise with the 208 and 261, there are lots of long distance passengers from Lewisham to Bromley, and in the case of the 261 this would serve as an alternative.
I'm aware my recent posts probably make it look like I'm obsessed with rail improvements and the London Overground in particular, but I always believe that when you build something, they come. The Elizabeth Line is now the busiest railway line in the country, and 30% of that demand was created out of thin air. Not to say that the New Cross branch is at all useless, although I can see an x15 headway to Lewisham being popular, especially at a station where interchanging is quite normal, with x30 headways to Bromley and Beckenham.
Beckenham Junction might have a slightly better case for it given Southeastern have reduced their service into London to an x30 frequency. There will be significant practical difficulties extending the Overground on the Southeastern network, mainly on how the lines are at capacity and will likely require digital signalling to reduce headways. That specific branch is currently much better of as a self-contained line. TfL has proposed increasing the line to 6tph making it less likely to pursue. Remember, the Southeastern metro network can all achieve a minimum 4tph on each lines as most were pre-covid, but sadly has been pressured by cuts from the operator and the DfT's lack of strategy. I don’t know how a lack of digital signalling would make it difficult, the reason tossed around at least pre service reduction was that lines were at capacity and that was why the London Overground was not extended, but since the service reduction there are now paths available. I appreciate Bromley North might be a challenge, so perhaps services could instead terminate at Hither Green where I believe they can reverse into a depot or sidings? (Can’t remember). The other option could be picking up the current Orpington terminating services? Linking Bromley to Lewisham could still be achieved though, perhaps an extension from Beckenham Junction to the more popular Bromley South? I believe at one point some Thameslink services terminated there?
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Post by northlondon83 on Jul 29, 2023 0:56:57 GMT
There will be significant practical difficulties extending the Overground on the Southeastern network, mainly on how the lines are at capacity and will likely require digital signalling to reduce headways. That specific branch is currently much better of as a self-contained line. TfL has proposed increasing the line to 6tph making it less likely to pursue. Remember, the Southeastern metro network can all achieve a minimum 4tph on each lines as most were pre-covid, but sadly has been pressured by cuts from the operator and the DfT's lack of strategy. I don’t know how a lack of digital signalling would make it difficult, the reason tossed around at least pre service reduction was that lines were at capacity and that was why the London Overground was not extended, but since the service reduction there are now paths available. I appreciate Bromley North might be a challenge, so perhaps services could instead terminate at Hither Green where I believe they can reverse into a depot or sidings? (Can’t remember). The other option could be picking up the current Orpington terminating services? Linking Bromley to Lewisham could still be achieved though, perhaps an extension from Beckenham Junction to the more popular Bromley South? I believe at one point some Thameslink services terminated there? Is there really a need to link Bromley to Lewisham by train when several bus connections exist. Not everywhere can be linked by train
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 29, 2023 1:49:07 GMT
I don’t know how a lack of digital signalling would make it difficult, the reason tossed around at least pre service reduction was that lines were at capacity and that was why the London Overground was not extended, but since the service reduction there are now paths available. I appreciate Bromley North might be a challenge, so perhaps services could instead terminate at Hither Green where I believe they can reverse into a depot or sidings? (Can’t remember). The other option could be picking up the current Orpington terminating services? Linking Bromley to Lewisham could still be achieved though, perhaps an extension from Beckenham Junction to the more popular Bromley South? I believe at one point some Thameslink services terminated there? Is there really a need to link Bromley to Lewisham by train when several bus connections exist. Not everywhere can be linked by train It could be seen as advantageous connecting up two major hubs?
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Post by northlondon83 on Jul 29, 2023 2:00:03 GMT
Is there really a need to link Bromley to Lewisham by train when several bus connections exist. Not everywhere can be linked by train It could be seen as advantageous connecting up two major hubs? I agree but the same can be said about Croydon and Bromley, although I guess it's easy to change from tram to rail at Beckenham Junction. Sometimes you have to take the bus because not everywhere can be linked by train. Perhaps a review of the local bus network would be an alternative idea, such as extending the 199 to Bromley. However this would have to come at the expense of potentially fully withdrawing the 47 and making other changes in Bromley due to a lack of stand space
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 29, 2023 2:11:35 GMT
It could be seen as advantageous connecting up two major hubs? I agree but the same can be said about Croydon and Bromley, although I guess it's easy to change from tram to rail at Beckenham Junction. Sometimes you have to take the bus because not everywhere can be linked by train. So should that same argument be used about the West London Orbital where passengers from Brent Cross instead of the ability to use an Overground service to reach Acton, Old Oak Common or Harlesden that could take 10-15 minutes should instead be expected to take a rammed 266 that takes close to an hour to reach Acton High Street? Should that same argument about linking Walthamstow Central and Stratford by rail through TFL considering reinstating the Hall Farm Curve be used and instead people should be expected to continue using the 69, 97 and 158? The sheer demand and connectivity of these services suggest such rail infrastructure improvements would be worth it, no? I’m sure the same could be said for a direct rail link between Bromley and Lewisham - especially when considered the infrastructure is already existing. If I advocated for a direct rail link however between say Bromley and Biggin Hill - well then that’s a slightly different story.
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Post by northlondon83 on Jul 29, 2023 2:20:08 GMT
I agree but the same can be said about Croydon and Bromley, although I guess it's easy to change from tram to rail at Beckenham Junction. Sometimes you have to take the bus because not everywhere can be linked by train. So should that same argument be used about the West London Orbital where passengers from Brent Cross instead of the ability to use an Overground service to reach Acton, Old Oak Common or Harlesden that could take 10-15 minutes should instead be expected to take a rammed 266 that takes close to an hour to reach Acton High Street? Should that same argument about linking Walthamstow Central and Stratford by rail through TFL considering reinstating the Hall Farm Curve be used and instead people should be expected to continue using the 69, 97 and 158? The sheer demand and connectivity of these services suggest such rail infrastructure improvements would be worth it, no? I’m sure the same could be said for a direct rail link between Bromley and Lewisham - especially when considered the infrastructure is already existing. If I advocated for a direct rail link however between say Bromley and Biggin Hill - well then that’s a slightly different story. If there's demand then yes but it probably is quite expensive
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 29, 2023 2:23:22 GMT
So should that same argument be used about the West London Orbital where passengers from Brent Cross instead of the ability to use an Overground service to reach Acton, Old Oak Common or Harlesden that could take 10-15 minutes should instead be expected to take a rammed 266 that takes close to an hour to reach Acton High Street? Should that same argument about linking Walthamstow Central and Stratford by rail through TFL considering reinstating the Hall Farm Curve be used and instead people should be expected to continue using the 69, 97 and 158? The sheer demand and connectivity of these services suggest such rail infrastructure improvements would be worth it, no? I’m sure the same could be said for a direct rail link between Bromley and Lewisham - especially when considered the infrastructure is already existing. If I advocated for a direct rail link however between say Bromley and Biggin Hill - well then that’s a slightly different story. If there's demand then yes but it probably is quite expensive How is it going to break the bank running a service over existing infrastructure? There are no doubt going to be operational costs, more rolling stock needing to be ordered and extra staff however the infrastructure is pre-existing which is where most of the cost of projects stem from. On another note, must admit as someone not local to South East London I was extremely surprised to realise that Lewisham and Bromley weren’t directly linked by train. Anyway I best be off, unfortunately having a bad cold in summer is not anyone’s first choice 😂
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Post by greenboy on Jul 29, 2023 5:30:43 GMT
Obviously the East London Line has now gone and taken over by London Overground with extensions north to Dalston Junction/Highbury Islington and Crystal Palace/West Croydon and Clapham Junction in the south. It is fair to say the take over by London Overground has been a success. However when I go through New Cross it seems quite simple to stick a set of points and double line between Canal Junction and New Cross to bring trains on to the mainline, this could open useful services to Bromley North/Orpington and maybe Dartford. I wonder if this may happen in the future? Of course this message is coming up to 2 years old now however as we had seen last winter with the reduction in services on the Southeastern network (which also meant routes like the Hayes line no longer serving Cannon St, that's the only one off the top of my head however I'm not sure on whether other Cannon St services were added/removed) there are now paths freed up through St John's, so I wonder whether an extension of the Overground into South London could be seen as more feasible.
Are the lines through Grove Park still at capacity because I do wonder whether, perhaps on a 30 minute headway like the existing line, the London Overground could cross over the fasts to the Bromley North Line without any trouble? The other 2 trains per hour could go somewhere else, perhaps Beckenham Junction? I know there are proposals for the Bakerloo Line to be extended to Hayes/Beckenham Junction however I don't think they're realistic at all because I don't think the Mid-Kent Line would justify such an intense frequency. I can see a Beckenham Junction extension as advantageous though, I should imagine there is demand from Catford/Lower Sydenham for the Jubilee Line at Canada Water for destinations beyond, and for Surrey Quays shopping centre. Services such as the 47 and 199 emptying out bucket loads of passengers at Canada Water in my opinion proves this. Likewise with the 208 and 261, there are lots of long distance passengers from Lewisham to Bromley, and in the case of the 261 this would serve as an alternative.
I'm aware my recent posts probably make it look like I'm obsessed with rail improvements and the London Overground in particular, but I always believe that when you build something, they come. The Elizabeth Line is now the busiest railway line in the country, and 30% of that demand was created out of thin air. Not to say that the New Cross branch is at all useless, although I can see an x15 headway to Lewisham being popular, especially at a station where interchanging is quite normal, with x30 headways to Bromley and Beckenham.
Beckenham Junction might have a slightly better case for it given Southeastern have reduced their service into London to an x30 frequency. It's just not possible to extend LO south of New Cross, whilst Hayes no longer have Cannon Street services they were replaced with additional Charing Cross services, this was done to reduce conflicting movements and much of the network is still at full capacity. Ideally LO would be extended to Bromley North but as well as the capacity issue south of New Cross it would also have to cross the fast lines at Grove Park.
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Post by northlondon83 on Jul 29, 2023 7:39:37 GMT
If there's demand then yes but it probably is quite expensive How is it going to break the bank running a service over existing infrastructure? There are no doubt going to be operational costs, more rolling stock needing to be ordered and extra staff however the infrastructure is pre-existing which is where most of the cost of projects stem from. On another note, must admit as someone not local to South East London I was extremely surprised to realise that Lewisham and Bromley weren’t directly linked by train. Anyway I best be off, unfortunately having a bad cold in summer is not anyone’s first choice 😂 Regardless I think that the best thing to do in the Bromley area is expand the bus network there. A 199 extension would link Bromley to Greenwich, perhaps the 335 could also be extended to Bromley to link it to North Greenwich. Ideally the SL4 would go to Bromley but there's no stand space and even with my ideas and the two new Superloop routes, there would need to be a reshuffle of other routes. I reckon we could see a couple of route mergers to get more stand space. Get well soon mate.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jul 29, 2023 7:47:59 GMT
If there's demand then yes but it probably is quite expensive How is it going to break the bank running a service over existing infrastructure? There are no doubt going to be operational costs, more rolling stock needing to be ordered and extra staff however the infrastructure is pre-existing which is where most of the cost of projects stem from. On another note, must admit as someone not local to South East London I was extremely surprised to realise that Lewisham and Bromley weren’t directly linked by train. Anyway I best be off, unfortunately having a bad cold in summer is not anyone’s first choice 😂 I wonder if a direct Bromley North to Hither Green, Lewisham, St John's, New Cross link would take pressure off the 208/261 and back in the day the need for variously the 47 running in sections, the 199 and later 1. Does the shuttle put people off having a change trains I wonder?
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