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Post by LondonNorthern on Jun 28, 2023 8:12:53 GMT
I do think this is a good new route connection around London. I do think it can help with both the rugby days and the Brentford home match days as well. My thing would be how long it would take to implement this? This shouldn’t take too long given every stretch of track is already in place. Dudding Hill Line would need to be electrified, and some new dual voltage rolling stock would need to be ordered.
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Post by joefrombow on Jun 28, 2023 8:21:31 GMT
I do think this is a good new route connection around London. I do think it can help with both the rugby days and the Brentford home match days as well. My thing would be how long it would take to implement this? This shouldn’t take too long given every stretch of track is already in place. Dudding Hill Line would need to be electrified, and some new dual voltage rolling stock would need to be ordered. Due to the recession we are in but not being called it I'm sure they could use some of the Southern Class 313s with some quick build scaffolding type temporary train stations being built could be up and running within a year " totally delivering for Londoner's spin from Mayor Sadiq 😂😂
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Post by mkay315 on Jun 28, 2023 8:52:39 GMT
This shouldn’t take too long given every stretch of track is already in place. Dudding Hill Line would need to be electrified, and some new dual voltage rolling stock would need to be ordered. Due to the recession we are in but not being called it I'm sure they could use some of the Southern Class 313s with some quick build scaffolding type temporary train stations being built could be up and running within a year " totally delivering for Londoner's spin from Mayor Sadiq 😂😂 😂😂😂😂😂😂
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Post by mkay315 on Jun 28, 2023 8:55:10 GMT
I do think this is a good new route connection around London. I do think it can help with both the rugby days and the Brentford home match days as well. My thing would be how long it would take to implement this? This shouldn’t take too long given every stretch of track is already in place. Dudding Hill Line would need to be electrified, and some new dual voltage rolling stock would need to be ordered. We all know how the electrification went with the GOBLIN as an example. A few delays and that.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 28, 2023 9:39:20 GMT
I'm not entirely convinced by the exact plans for this route. In particular, I don't think there's much point in splitting to two branches at each end, it will only mean less frequency to each.
At the northern end, I certainly don't see the need to go to West Hampstead. The Jubilee Line already links to Neasden, and the Overground via Willesden Junction and Acton - both being more direct than the West London Orbital. Brent Cross West makes sense, and I think would be the best place to terminate trains, both as a more major destination, and with the infrastructure of the new station perhaps giving more space for additional platforms. Thameslink will provide 6tph through Brent Cross West for connections to Cricklewood/Hendon/Mill Hill etc.
At the south, terminating some trains at Kew Bridge seems pointless, as the new Lionel Road station is round the corner (as well as Gunnersbury nearby on the NLL), and passengers from Chiswick/Barnes can change at Brentford if needed. Or could even replace both with one new combined station slightly to the west?
I also think the new line will create a bit of a mess when combined with the existing Overground routes, and could be confusing to some passengers. My suggestion would be to split the NLL/WLL into two routes, incorporating parts of the West Londob Orbital - along with a rebuild of Willesden Junction to create a Stratford/Clapham style hub station. So services from Stratford would simply all run through via Acton Central, then alternating between Richmond and Hounslow.
Then services from Clapham Junction would run through to Brent Cross West. North of Shepherds Bush, trains would switch to the tracks used by Southern services, with new east-west platforms built at Willesden Junction slightly to the south of the current station. Then a new curve of track linking to the Dudden Hill Line, before crossing the WCML to stop at Harlesden, and continuing to Neasden and Brent Cross.
The rebuild of Willesden Junction would also mean Southern services to Watford would be withdrawn. New platforms would allow LNR services from Euston to Tring/MKC to stop there, where passengers would be able to change to the Overground for further connections including towards Clapham Junction.
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Post by rif153 on Jun 28, 2023 10:13:25 GMT
I'm not entirely convinced by the exact plans for this route. In particular, I don't think there's much point in splitting to two branches at each end, it will only mean less frequency to each. At the northern end, I certainly don't see the need to go to West Hampstead. The Jubilee Line already links to Neasden, and the Overground via Willesden Junction and Acton - both being more direct than the West London Orbital. Brent Cross West makes sense, and I think would be the best place to terminate trains, both as a more major destination, and with the infrastructure of the new station perhaps giving more space for additional platforms. Thameslink will provide 6tph through Brent Cross West for connections to Cricklewood/Hendon/Mill Hill etc. At the south, terminating some trains at Kew Bridge seems pointless, as the new Lionel Road station is round the corner (as well as Gunnersbury nearby on the NLL), and passengers from Chiswick/Barnes can change at Brentford if needed. Or could even replace both with one new combined station slightly to the west? I also think the new line will create a bit of a mess when combined with the existing Overground routes, and could be confusing to some passengers. My suggestion would be to split the NLL/WLL into two routes, incorporating parts of the West Londob Orbital - along with a rebuild of Willesden Junction to create a Stratford/Clapham style hub station. So services from Stratford would simply all run through via Acton Central, then alternating between Richmond and Hounslow. Then services from Clapham Junction would run through to Brent Cross West. North of Shepherds Bush, trains would switch to the tracks used by Southern services, with new east-west platforms built at Willesden Junction slightly to the south of the current station. Then a new curve of track linking to the Dudden Hill Line, before crossing the WCML to stop at Harlesden, and continuing to Neasden and Brent Cross. The rebuild of Willesden Junction would also mean Southern services to Watford would be withdrawn. New platforms would allow LNR services from Euston to Tring/MKC to stop there, where passengers would be able to change to the Overground for further connections including towards Clapham Junction. Completely agree having separate branches to Kew Bridge and Lionel Road is a total waste when it would be better to send all trains down to Hounslow. Are there any details on how trains will reverse at Hounslow? I know there's a crossover for trains to allow trains leaving platform 2 to head westbound but turning 4tph around in that platform would probably cause problems so maybe a bay should be built on the north side of the station by the car park. Think the justification for a branch to West Hampstead is a bit stronger but still have my reservations. I imagine this will necessitate the closure of Bollo Lane level crossings. At the moment its bad enough with 12tph in each direction over one of them but adding the West London Orbital over the other crossing will make it worse than the Rocks Lane level crossings in Barnes. The main problem is the alternatives routes to cross the railway mean significant detours. The level crossing at Acton Central is easier to close at the Uxbridge Road is just south of Churchfield Road.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jun 29, 2023 10:00:27 GMT
Instead of having some services terminate at Kew Bridge, perhaps if there were issues with turning around more trains at Hounslow, perhaps a train or two per hour could divert up to Southall from Brentford using the Trumpers Way line to create a new rail link between the Elizabeth Line and SWR? Fantasy of course
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jun 29, 2023 12:00:01 GMT
I'm not entirely convinced by the exact plans for this route. In particular, I don't think there's much point in splitting to two branches at each end, it will only mean less frequency to each. At the northern end, I certainly don't see the need to go to West Hampstead. The Jubilee Line already links to Neasden, and the Overground via Willesden Junction and Acton - both being more direct than the West London Orbital. Brent Cross West makes sense, and I think would be the best place to terminate trains, both as a more major destination, and with the infrastructure of the new station perhaps giving more space for additional platforms. Thameslink will provide 6tph through Brent Cross West for connections to Cricklewood/Hendon/Mill Hill etc. At the south, terminating some trains at Kew Bridge seems pointless, as the new Lionel Road station is round the corner (as well as Gunnersbury nearby on the NLL), and passengers from Chiswick/Barnes can change at Brentford if needed. Or could even replace both with one new combined station slightly to the west? I also think the new line will create a bit of a mess when combined with the existing Overground routes, and could be confusing to some passengers. My suggestion would be to split the NLL/WLL into two routes, incorporating parts of the West Londob Orbital - along with a rebuild of Willesden Junction to create a Stratford/Clapham style hub station. So services from Stratford would simply all run through via Acton Central, then alternating between Richmond and Hounslow. Then services from Clapham Junction would run through to Brent Cross West. North of Shepherds Bush, trains would switch to the tracks used by Southern services, with new east-west platforms built at Willesden Junction slightly to the south of the current station. Then a new curve of track linking to the Dudden Hill Line, before crossing the WCML to stop at Harlesden, and continuing to Neasden and Brent Cross. The rebuild of Willesden Junction would also mean Southern services to Watford would be withdrawn. New platforms would allow LNR services from Euston to Tring/MKC to stop there, where passengers would be able to change to the Overground for further connections including towards Clapham Junction. I might come back to this and say, would it be better just to curtail it at Cricklewood? When it comes to local journeys the West London Orbital plans on duplicating certain bus routes which could always be done by rail instead, Harlesden and Acton are linked to Cricklewood by the 266 and Neasden is linked to Cricklewood by the 245 and 332, so through those routes existing it suggests that there is demand. The other more useful option would be attempting to extend it further to Kentish Town, linking in with the tube, however I’m not sure on where they could be turned around. Having said that Thameslink have terminated services at Kentish Town before, but that was from the opposite direction. What would be the expected frequency of this line? If it’s quite low then maybe the answer might be making the WLO maybe one line and solely focusing on that.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 29, 2023 12:49:26 GMT
I'm not entirely convinced by the exact plans for this route. In particular, I don't think there's much point in splitting to two branches at each end, it will only mean less frequency to each. At the northern end, I certainly don't see the need to go to West Hampstead. The Jubilee Line already links to Neasden, and the Overground via Willesden Junction and Acton - both being more direct than the West London Orbital. Brent Cross West makes sense, and I think would be the best place to terminate trains, both as a more major destination, and with the infrastructure of the new station perhaps giving more space for additional platforms. Thameslink will provide 6tph through Brent Cross West for connections to Cricklewood/Hendon/Mill Hill etc. At the south, terminating some trains at Kew Bridge seems pointless, as the new Lionel Road station is round the corner (as well as Gunnersbury nearby on the NLL), and passengers from Chiswick/Barnes can change at Brentford if needed. Or could even replace both with one new combined station slightly to the west? I also think the new line will create a bit of a mess when combined with the existing Overground routes, and could be confusing to some passengers. My suggestion would be to split the NLL/WLL into two routes, incorporating parts of the West Londob Orbital - along with a rebuild of Willesden Junction to create a Stratford/Clapham style hub station. So services from Stratford would simply all run through via Acton Central, then alternating between Richmond and Hounslow. Then services from Clapham Junction would run through to Brent Cross West. North of Shepherds Bush, trains would switch to the tracks used by Southern services, with new east-west platforms built at Willesden Junction slightly to the south of the current station. Then a new curve of track linking to the Dudden Hill Line, before crossing the WCML to stop at Harlesden, and continuing to Neasden and Brent Cross. The rebuild of Willesden Junction would also mean Southern services to Watford would be withdrawn. New platforms would allow LNR services from Euston to Tring/MKC to stop there, where passengers would be able to change to the Overground for further connections including towards Clapham Junction. I might come back to this and say, would it be better just to curtail it at Cricklewood? When it comes to local journeys the West London Orbital plans on duplicating certain bus routes which could always be done by rail instead, Harlesden and Acton are linked to Cricklewood by the 266 and Neasden is linked to Cricklewood by the 245 and 332, so through those routes existing it suggests that there is demand. The other more useful option would be attempting to extend it further to Kentish Town, linking in with the tube, however I’m not sure on where they could be turned around. Having said that Thameslink have terminated services at Kentish Town before, but that was from the opposite direction. What would be the expected frequency of this line? If it’s quite low then maybe the answer might be making the WLO maybe one line and solely focusing on that. Terminating at Cricklewood wouldn't be much different from Brent Cross West. However I think Brent Cross would be a better option, partly as it's a more major destination with the shopping centre and upcoming redevelopments. And since it is a new station, there may be more a scope to incorporate extra platforms for Overground trains to terminate and reverse. I definitely don't see the need to continue to Hendon, and as I said previously, going to West Hampstead wouldn't really provide any new journey opportunities. Also in terms of interchange to Thameslink, Cricklewood only has 4tph, while Brent Cross West will have 6tph (with the Luton-Rainham services also stopping there). TFL haven't confirmed a frequency, but had looked at the costings for either 4tph or 8tph on the core section via South Acton and Neasden. If they went for 4tph, that would mean only 2tph to each branch, which isn't a very attractive proposition and passengers may seek other options. My suggestion would be as follows: 8tph from Stratford to South Acton, alternating as 4tph to Richmond and 4tph to Hounslow. 6tph Clapham Junction to Brent Cross West (also replacing Southern services via Shepherds Bush). Could look at extending further south too. 2-4tph London Northwestern services out of Euston additionally stopping at Willesden Junction.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jun 29, 2023 12:57:47 GMT
I might come back to this and say, would it be better just to curtail it at Cricklewood? When it comes to local journeys the West London Orbital plans on duplicating certain bus routes which could always be done by rail instead, Harlesden and Acton are linked to Cricklewood by the 266 and Neasden is linked to Cricklewood by the 245 and 332, so through those routes existing it suggests that there is demand. The other more useful option would be attempting to extend it further to Kentish Town, linking in with the tube, however I’m not sure on where they could be turned around. Having said that Thameslink have terminated services at Kentish Town before, but that was from the opposite direction. What would be the expected frequency of this line? If it’s quite low then maybe the answer might be making the WLO maybe one line and solely focusing on that. Terminating at Cricklewood wouldn't be much different from Brent Cross West. However I think Brent Cross would be a better option, partly as it's a more major destination with the shopping centre and upcoming redevelopments. And since it is a new station, there may be more a scope to incorporate extra platforms for Overground trains to terminate and reverse. I definitely don't see the need to continue to Hendon, and as I said previously, going to West Hampstead wouldn't really provide any new journey opportunities. Also in terms of interchange to Thameslink, Cricklewood only has 4tph, while Brent Cross West will have 6tph (with the Luton-Rainham services also stopping there). TFL haven't confirmed a frequency, but had looked at the costings for either 4tph or 8tph on the core section via South Acton and Neasden. If they went for 4tph, that would mean only 2tph to each branch, which isn't a very attractive proposition and passengers may seek other options. My suggestion would be as follows: 8tph from Stratford to South Acton, alternating as 4tph to Richmond and 4tph to Hounslow. 6tph Clapham Junction to Brent Cross West (also replacing Southern services via Shepherds Bush). Could look at extending further south too. 2-4tph London Northwestern services out of Euston additionally stopping at Willesden Junction. Could always just focus the line on Hendon/Grahame Park to Hounslow then on a 4 train per hour frequency. I think there is some scope in continuing it to Hendon - there’s redevelopment in the West Hendon area. An extension to Grahame Park would also incorporate the development in the area, maybe a new interchange station with the Northern Line could also be incorporated?
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 29, 2023 17:46:17 GMT
Terminating at Cricklewood wouldn't be much different from Brent Cross West. However I think Brent Cross would be a better option, partly as it's a more major destination with the shopping centre and upcoming redevelopments. And since it is a new station, there may be more a scope to incorporate extra platforms for Overground trains to terminate and reverse. I definitely don't see the need to continue to Hendon, and as I said previously, going to West Hampstead wouldn't really provide any new journey opportunities. Also in terms of interchange to Thameslink, Cricklewood only has 4tph, while Brent Cross West will have 6tph (with the Luton-Rainham services also stopping there). TFL haven't confirmed a frequency, but had looked at the costings for either 4tph or 8tph on the core section via South Acton and Neasden. If they went for 4tph, that would mean only 2tph to each branch, which isn't a very attractive proposition and passengers may seek other options. My suggestion would be as follows: 8tph from Stratford to South Acton, alternating as 4tph to Richmond and 4tph to Hounslow. 6tph Clapham Junction to Brent Cross West (also replacing Southern services via Shepherds Bush). Could look at extending further south too. 2-4tph London Northwestern services out of Euston additionally stopping at Willesden Junction. Could always just focus the line on Hendon/Grahame Park to Hounslow then on a 4 train per hour frequency. I think there is some scope in continuing it to Hendon - there’s redevelopment in the West Hendon area. An extension to Grahame Park would also incorporate the development in the area, maybe a new interchange station with the Northern Line could also be incorporated? I'm aware of the redevelopments, but I'm not sure there is a need for both Thameslink and Overground north of Brent Cross. Most passengers at Hendon or further north are more likely to be travelling into Central London, so I think would be better to maximise capacity on Thameslink services here as needed, with Brent Cross West then providing an interchange for journeys via Neasden/Harlesden. I agree a new station between Hendon and Mill Hill could be useful. However there may not be a strong business case here, as most of the redevelopments around Grahame Park are already a short walk away from Colindale Station.
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Post by northlondon83 on Jun 29, 2023 20:25:11 GMT
I'm not entirely convinced by the exact plans for this route. In particular, I don't think there's much point in splitting to two branches at each end, it will only mean less frequency to each. At the northern end, I certainly don't see the need to go to West Hampstead. The Jubilee Line already links to Neasden, and the Overground via Willesden Junction and Acton - both being more direct than the West London Orbital. Brent Cross West makes sense, and I think would be the best place to terminate trains, both as a more major destination, and with the infrastructure of the new station perhaps giving more space for additional platforms. Thameslink will provide 6tph through Brent Cross West for connections to Cricklewood/Hendon/Mill Hill etc. At the south, terminating some trains at Kew Bridge seems pointless, as the new Lionel Road station is round the corner (as well as Gunnersbury nearby on the NLL), and passengers from Chiswick/Barnes can change at Brentford if needed. Or could even replace both with one new combined station slightly to the west? I also think the new line will create a bit of a mess when combined with the existing Overground routes, and could be confusing to some passengers. My suggestion would be to split the NLL/WLL into two routes, incorporating parts of the West Londob Orbital - along with a rebuild of Willesden Junction to create a Stratford/Clapham style hub station. So services from Stratford would simply all run through via Acton Central, then alternating between Richmond and Hounslow. Then services from Clapham Junction would run through to Brent Cross West. North of Shepherds Bush, trains would switch to the tracks used by Southern services, with new east-west platforms built at Willesden Junction slightly to the south of the current station. Then a new curve of track linking to the Dudden Hill Line, before crossing the WCML to stop at Harlesden, and continuing to Neasden and Brent Cross. The rebuild of Willesden Junction would also mean Southern services to Watford would be withdrawn. New platforms would allow LNR services from Euston to Tring/MKC to stop there, where passengers would be able to change to the Overground for further connections including towards Clapham Junction. I think West Hampstead is an excellent destination, connects with Jubilee, Richmond/CJ to Stratford line and Thameslink. I'd have the southern end extended to Richmond calling at Twickenham and Richmond only. As others have said that Twickenham would be good on rugby days but Richmond would also connection with the District line and Richmond to Stratford service. The only disadvantage is that it is quite an indirect route. I'd also cut the Overground back to Queen's Park, then send some Bakerloo line trains that terminate there off to Watford Junction. I'd also use the curve of track near Adelaide Road and extend to Stratford.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 30, 2023 1:29:21 GMT
I'm not entirely convinced by the exact plans for this route. In particular, I don't think there's much point in splitting to two branches at each end, it will only mean less frequency to each. At the northern end, I certainly don't see the need to go to West Hampstead. The Jubilee Line already links to Neasden, and the Overground via Willesden Junction and Acton - both being more direct than the West London Orbital. Brent Cross West makes sense, and I think would be the best place to terminate trains, both as a more major destination, and with the infrastructure of the new station perhaps giving more space for additional platforms. Thameslink will provide 6tph through Brent Cross West for connections to Cricklewood/Hendon/Mill Hill etc. At the south, terminating some trains at Kew Bridge seems pointless, as the new Lionel Road station is round the corner (as well as Gunnersbury nearby on the NLL), and passengers from Chiswick/Barnes can change at Brentford if needed. Or could even replace both with one new combined station slightly to the west? I also think the new line will create a bit of a mess when combined with the existing Overground routes, and could be confusing to some passengers. My suggestion would be to split the NLL/WLL into two routes, incorporating parts of the West Londob Orbital - along with a rebuild of Willesden Junction to create a Stratford/Clapham style hub station. So services from Stratford would simply all run through via Acton Central, then alternating between Richmond and Hounslow. Then services from Clapham Junction would run through to Brent Cross West. North of Shepherds Bush, trains would switch to the tracks used by Southern services, with new east-west platforms built at Willesden Junction slightly to the south of the current station. Then a new curve of track linking to the Dudden Hill Line, before crossing the WCML to stop at Harlesden, and continuing to Neasden and Brent Cross. The rebuild of Willesden Junction would also mean Southern services to Watford would be withdrawn. New platforms would allow LNR services from Euston to Tring/MKC to stop there, where passengers would be able to change to the Overground for further connections including towards Clapham Junction. I'd also cut the Overground back to Queen's Park, then send some Bakerloo line trains that terminate there off to Watford Junction. I'd also use the curve of track near Adelaide Road and extend to Stratford. I'm not sure I see the logic in cutting the Overground back and extending the Bakerloo line to Watford Junction?
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Post by northlondon83 on Jun 30, 2023 6:53:52 GMT
I'd also cut the Overground back to Queen's Park, then send some Bakerloo line trains that terminate there off to Watford Junction. I'd also use the curve of track near Adelaide Road and extend to Stratford. I'm not sure I see the logic in cutting the Overground back and extending the Bakerloo line to Watford Junction? More trains into the city from places like Hatch End, Bushey etc. The Overground extension also would provide new links like Queens Park to Camden. There would be broken links however I think that more links would be created than broken
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Post by vjaska on Jun 30, 2023 11:38:04 GMT
I'm not sure I see the logic in cutting the Overground back and extending the Bakerloo line to Watford Junction? More trains into the city from places like Hatch End, Bushey etc. The Overground extension also would provide new links like Queens Park to Camden. There would be broken links however I think that more links would be created than broken They already have a service from those places to Euston and if requiring the West End in particular, can simply change between Harrow & Wealdstone and Queens Park
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