|
Post by buspete on Aug 16, 2023 9:40:43 GMT
When there are delays caused by equipment failure like this morning on the Elizabeth Line, still no service between Abbey Wood and Whitchapel. Looks like the Elizabeth Line has had its first run through of a set of points?
Anyway those words get used that tickets are being accepted on any reasonable route; in this case London Underground, South Eastern, Great Western Railway, DLR, Heathrow Express and Local Bus Services.
Anyway "Any Reasonable Route" seems to be very subjective. What defines a reasonable route?
|
|
|
Post by BE37054 (quoll662) on Aug 16, 2023 10:33:41 GMT
This isn't an official definition but just my guess on this matter. I would imagine it means any route which can be used between two stations on the closed section of line, or a route that would connect to another station on other open sections of the same line, or that performs a similar function to the closed line.
For example, in the above situation, DLR from Woolwich Arsenal to Canning Town then Custom House/Canary Wharf would come under my first point. Another example would be route D3 from Whitechapel to Canary Wharf or route 177/180 from Abbey Wood to Woolwich.
Examples for my second point would include DLR or route 241 from Custom House to Stratford, or bus route 135 from Canary Wharf to Liverpool Street. A Jubilee Line from Canary Wharf to Bond Street would be another example of this.
For my third point, you could get a Southeastern train from Abbey Wood or Woolwich to Charing Cross, or a DLR from Canary Wharf to Bank, as both get you into Central London. It could also be that the route gets you to a point near to a station on the line, such as Thamesmead instead of Abbey Wood.
I would imagine what does not constitute a ''reasonable route'' depends on your ticket. For example, a Jubilee Line from Canary Wharf to Bond Street then an Elizabeth Line back out to Whitechapel may not be considered reasonable. Likely if you get caught by a ticket inspector, they would apply their judgment and consider if you were due to make an onward journey on a different ticket.
|
|
|
Post by buspete on Aug 16, 2023 11:08:54 GMT
I like your third point. I use Abbey Wood for the Elizabeth Line, but I live closest to Bexleyheath. So instead of going up to Abbey Wood and getting on a very crowded train, where people couldn't get on the Elizabeth Line this morning, I simply went to Bexleyheath as more convenient and more enticing than a crowded Abbey Wood train. Is this a reasonable route?
I noticed London Overground was omitted from the reasonable route, so if I wanted to go to Whitechapel, this therefore is an unreasonable route?
Could I jump on a Inter City Paddington to Reading, if my intended destination is Reading?
I hold a TFL staff travel card.
|
|
|
Post by BE37054 (quoll662) on Aug 16, 2023 12:52:43 GMT
I like your third point. I use Abbey Wood for the Elizabeth Line, but I live closest to Bexleyheath. So instead of going up to Abbey Wood and getting on a very crowded train, where people couldn't get on the Elizabeth Line this morning, I simply went to Bexleyheath as more convenient and more enticing than a crowded Abbey Wood train. Is this a reasonable route? I noticed London Overground was omitted from the reasonable route, so if I wanted to go to Whitechapel, this therefore is an unreasonable route? Could I jump on a Inter City Paddington to Reading, if my intended destination is Reading? I hold a TFL staff travel card. I would say that's probably reasonable, no-one is to know whether or not you got a 301 or B11 from Abbey Wood to Bexleyheath. Also, Bexleyheath may have more frequent trains or trains taking different routes. For example, if you wanted to go to Bond Street, from Bexleyheath you could get a train to Victoria then get a 390. Likewise a train to Charing Cross then a 29 to TCR, but it could be said that it would be more reasonable to travel from Abbey Wood to Charing Cross. Interesting you mention London Overground as this would link into your point on Bexleyheath. You could get a train from Bexleyheath to New Cross that you may not be able to get from Abbey Wood, then an Overground to Whitechapel. Thameslink also serve Abbey Wood, would they not be considered reasonable either? Farringdon and City Thameslink are within walking distance. However, having a TfL travel card for staff makes this irrelevant: this only applies to those using paper tickets. Oyster and staff cards will automatically charge you the appropriate fare. For example, if you used buses instead of trains for your entire journey, then you would be charged bus fares on Oyster.
|
|
|
Post by buspete on Aug 16, 2023 17:48:37 GMT
Well Elizabeth Line is still suspended.
The TFL website do not list Thameslink nor London Overground as a reasonable route, where I would beg to dither.
Also when getting a bus instead how do we know the bus driver has been informed to accept tickets and the limits for acceptance?
|
|
|
Post by matthieu1221 on Aug 17, 2023 4:33:21 GMT
Well Elizabeth Line is still suspended. The TFL website do not list Thameslink nor London Overground as a reasonable route, where I would beg to dither. Also when getting a bus instead how do we know the bus driver has been informed to accept tickets and the limits for acceptance? NMCC usually send something out iirc. Here was the specific notification for the Crossrail disruption:
Still rather vague, especially on such an express and long line. Much clearer for instance when a single station is closed and tickets are stated to be accepted on buses between the two stations either side of the closed station.
|
|
|
Post by someone on Aug 20, 2023 18:26:44 GMT
This isn't an official definition but just my guess on this matter. I would imagine it means any route which can be used between two stations on the closed section of line, or a route that would connect to another station on other open sections of the same line, or that performs a similar function to the closed line. For example, in the above situation, DLR from Woolwich Arsenal to Canning Town then Custom House/Canary Wharf would come under my first point. Another example would be route D3 from Whitechapel to Canary Wharf or route 177/180 from Abbey Wood to Woolwich. Examples for my second point would include DLR or route 241 from Custom House to Stratford, or bus route 135 from Canary Wharf to Liverpool Street. A Jubilee Line from Canary Wharf to Bond Street would be another example of this. For my third point, you could get a Southeastern train from Abbey Wood or Woolwich to Charing Cross, or a DLR from Canary Wharf to Bank, as both get you into Central London. It could also be that the route gets you to a point near to a station on the line, such as Thamesmead instead of Abbey Wood. I would imagine what does not constitute a ''reasonable route'' depends on your ticket. For example, a Jubilee Line from Canary Wharf to Bond Street then an Elizabeth Line back out to Whitechapel may not be considered reasonable. Likely if you get caught by a ticket inspector, they would apply their judgment and consider if you were due to make an onward journey on a different ticket. For the Abbey Wood part, do you mean 472 rather than 177?
|
|
|
Post by BE37054 (quoll662) on Aug 20, 2023 18:31:58 GMT
This isn't an official definition but just my guess on this matter. I would imagine it means any route which can be used between two stations on the closed section of line, or a route that would connect to another station on other open sections of the same line, or that performs a similar function to the closed line. For example, in the above situation, DLR from Woolwich Arsenal to Canning Town then Custom House/Canary Wharf would come under my first point. Another example would be route D3 from Whitechapel to Canary Wharf or route 177/180 from Abbey Wood to Woolwich. Examples for my second point would include DLR or route 241 from Custom House to Stratford, or bus route 135 from Canary Wharf to Liverpool Street. A Jubilee Line from Canary Wharf to Bond Street would be another example of this. For my third point, you could get a Southeastern train from Abbey Wood or Woolwich to Charing Cross, or a DLR from Canary Wharf to Bank, as both get you into Central London. It could also be that the route gets you to a point near to a station on the line, such as Thamesmead instead of Abbey Wood. I would imagine what does not constitute a ''reasonable route'' depends on your ticket. For example, a Jubilee Line from Canary Wharf to Bond Street then an Elizabeth Line back out to Whitechapel may not be considered reasonable. Likely if you get caught by a ticket inspector, they would apply their judgment and consider if you were due to make an onward journey on a different ticket. For the Abbey Wood part, do you mean 472 rather than 177? Not really sure, never been past Greenwich Park in that corner of London. 472 seems to take a rather indirect route, hence mentioning the 177 despite it not completely serving the station itself. However, I would imagine it could be considered reasonable, but not sure how long the walk is. You could be starting your journey from Lidl though.
|
|
|
Post by buspete on Aug 21, 2023 14:58:14 GMT
Elizabeth Line suspended Whitechapel - Abbey Wood. Points failure at Stepney Green.
So tickets being accepted on London Underground and DLR, which is fine, but London Underground and DLR doesn’t go to Abbey Wood. So I use my Elizabeth Line ticket on Southeastern or Thameslink thinking this is okay, but risk £100 fine?
|
|
|
Post by wirewiper on Aug 21, 2023 15:11:43 GMT
Elizabeth Line suspended Whitechapel - Abbey Wood. Points failure at Stepney Green. So tickets being accepted on London Underground and DLR, which is fine, but London Underground and DLR doesn’t go to Abbey Wood. So I use my Elizabeth Line ticket on Southeastern or Thameslink thinking this is okay, but risk £100 fine? It is very unlikely you would be issued with a £100 fine - and even if you were, it would be cancelled if you appealed it.
|
|
|
Post by mkay315 on Aug 21, 2023 15:30:27 GMT
Elizabeth Line suspended Whitechapel - Abbey Wood. Points failure at Stepney Green. So tickets being accepted on London Underground and DLR, which is fine, but London Underground and DLR doesn’t go to Abbey Wood. So I use my Elizabeth Line ticket on Southeastern or Thameslink thinking this is okay, but risk £100 fine? You can appeal it and also take pictures of how the status of the live updates is like so if anything happens. You have proof that you tried to take the Elizabeth line but there was disruptions and you were told you use another route.
|
|
|
Post by kmkcheng on Aug 21, 2023 16:58:07 GMT
Hypothetically if the Abbey Wood branch is suspended, and using contactless/oyster, I took the circle line from Paddington to Cannon Street to take a southeastern service to Abbey Wood as an alternative, could the extra cost of the fare be claimed back as a direct EL fare is £3.20 but via National rail is £5.30?
|
|
|
Post by BE37054 (quoll662) on Aug 22, 2023 7:04:40 GMT
Hypothetically if the Abbey Wood branch is suspended, and using contactless/oyster, I took the circle line from Paddington to Cannon Street to take a southeastern service to Abbey Wood as an alternative, could the extra cost of the fare be claimed back as a direct EL fare is £3.20 but via National rail is £5.30? With oyster you probably could if you have it registered online - it might be quite difficult though. Contactless I doubt you'd be able to.
|
|
|
Post by buspete on Aug 23, 2023 17:27:18 GMT
I wouldn’t expect to be fined a £100 and I know staff tend to turn a blind eye, as the person would have a ticket (valid?) and it’s not there fault. I would be a complete over zealous inspector to hand out a fine.
But saying you did have an over zealous who fined me inspector and I did appeal it, wouldn’t the toc be in their rights to decline my appeal, especially as National Rail routes weren’t list as an acceptable route, but there is no other easy way of getting to Abbey Wood apart from National Rail, when there is no Elizabeth Line?
|
|
|
Post by someone on Aug 23, 2023 19:08:16 GMT
For the Abbey Wood part, do you mean 472 rather than 177? Not really sure, never been past Greenwich Park in that corner of London. 472 seems to take a rather indirect route, hence mentioning the 177 despite it not completely serving the station itself. However, I would imagine it could be considered reasonable, but not sure how long the walk is. You could be starting your journey from Lidl though. Really? I think the 177 is more indirect, as the section on Eynsham Drive is extremely congested.
|
|