|
Post by DT 11 on Jul 31, 2019 19:57:30 GMT
Slightly off topic but which other examples are there of buses terminating right outside a garage and being run by a competitor (aka the enemy)? I can think of the 68 at west Norwood but am sure other examples exist Not directly outside but the 148 is a stone's throw away from both Q and WL. Indeed, but the 148 has its own bus stand. The 484 has only ever been run from Q & WL and the operators use(d) the garage as a bus stand. Would be interesting if Stagecoach ever won the 484.
|
|
|
Post by DT 11 on Jul 31, 2019 20:00:06 GMT
Slightly off topic but which other examples are there of buses terminating right outside a garage and being run by a competitor (aka the enemy)? I can think of the 68 at west Norwood but am sure other examples exist 171 terminates outside of TL As well as the 660
|
|
|
Post by kmkcheng on Jul 31, 2019 20:13:40 GMT
Bus companies are going to have to be told by TfL (if they haven't been already) that, in future, if a bus route terminates at a bus garage then, regardless of the operator, it will be incumbent on that operator to take reasonable steps to provide space for that service. If there are considered to be 'issues' that might make this difficult, perhaps at certain times of day only e.g. BN towards the end of the p.m. rush hour could be a legitimate case, then these could be argued BUT the presumption would otherwise be made that access was permissible and, if the operator didn't agree, then their own ability to tender for routes could be in jeopardy. A half decent head of bus operations would make this clear, and, you watch, the 'problems' would miraculously disappear. Why should bus operators be told or need to do anything? It is TfL that arranges the stands if an operator wins a route that terminates at a garage that is not their own, as it’s set out in the tender specifications what the stand arrangements will be, to make it fair to all tenderers and not give the garage operator an advantage. For example, if someone other than Metroline were to win the 6, 52 or 98, the stand would be at Church End.
|
|
|
Post by rif153 on Jul 31, 2019 20:28:49 GMT
Bus companies are going to have to be told by TfL (if they haven't been already) that, in future, if a bus route terminates at a bus garage then, regardless of the operator, it will be incumbent on that operator to take reasonable steps to provide space for that service. If there are considered to be 'issues' that might make this difficult, perhaps at certain times of day only e.g. BN towards the end of the p.m. rush hour could be a legitimate case, then these could be argued BUT the presumption would otherwise be made that access was permissible and, if the operator didn't agree, then their own ability to tender for routes could be in jeopardy. A half decent head of bus operations would make this clear, and, you watch, the 'problems' would miraculously disappear. When lots buses descend on BN in the evening, do the 59/137/319 stand on the road outside the garage?
|
|
|
Post by busaholic on Jul 31, 2019 21:11:33 GMT
Bus companies are going to have to be told by TfL (if they haven't been already) that, in future, if a bus route terminates at a bus garage then, regardless of the operator, it will be incumbent on that operator to take reasonable steps to provide space for that service. If there are considered to be 'issues' that might make this difficult, perhaps at certain times of day only e.g. BN towards the end of the p.m. rush hour could be a legitimate case, then these could be argued BUT the presumption would otherwise be made that access was permissible and, if the operator didn't agree, then their own ability to tender for routes could be in jeopardy. A half decent head of bus operations would make this clear, and, you watch, the 'problems' would miraculously disappear. When lots buses descend on BN in the evening, do the 59/137/319 stand on the road outside the garage? On the road, and trailing out from the garage effectively taking over the pedestrian space too. It renders Countdown for the 319, for instance, at the stop a few yards from the garage useless as it shows three different 319s to Sloane Square all 1 minute away at 7 p.m.!
|
|
|
Post by richard on Jul 31, 2019 21:18:58 GMT
Bus companies are going to have to be told by TfL (if they haven't been already) that, in future, if a bus route terminates at a bus garage then, regardless of the operator, it will be incumbent on that operator to take reasonable steps to provide space for that service. If there are considered to be 'issues' that might make this difficult, perhaps at certain times of day only e.g. BN towards the end of the p.m. rush hour could be a legitimate case, then these could be argued BUT the presumption would otherwise be made that access was permissible and, if the operator didn't agree, then their own ability to tender for routes could be in jeopardy. A half decent head of bus operations would make this clear, and, you watch, the 'problems' would miraculously disappear. When lots buses descend on BN in the evening, do the 59/137/319 stand on the road outside the garage? I have seen loads of 137 LTs sitting outside BN because they are N LTs and BN drivers
|
|
|
Post by busaholic on Jul 31, 2019 21:21:52 GMT
Bus companies are going to have to be told by TfL (if they haven't been already) that, in future, if a bus route terminates at a bus garage then, regardless of the operator, it will be incumbent on that operator to take reasonable steps to provide space for that service. If there are considered to be 'issues' that might make this difficult, perhaps at certain times of day only e.g. BN towards the end of the p.m. rush hour could be a legitimate case, then these could be argued BUT the presumption would otherwise be made that access was permissible and, if the operator didn't agree, then their own ability to tender for routes could be in jeopardy. A half decent head of bus operations would make this clear, and, you watch, the 'problems' would miraculously disappear. Why should bus operators be told or need to do anything? It is TfL that arranges the stands if an operator wins a route that terminates at a garage that is not their own, as it’s set out in the tender specifications what the stand arrangements will be, to make it fair to all tenderers and not give the garage operator an advantage. For example, if someone other than Metroline were to win the 6, 52 or 98, the stand would be at Church End. Why so many examples of not only stand changes but route extensions, or even curtailments, when an incumbent operator loses a route that terminated at its garage? South Croydon, Red Deer, for instance on the 468 when Go Ahead won the route from Arriva. If there was an original specification by TfL I don't believe for a second that that was it. The stop just north of South Croydon Garage has probably lost more bph than any other in outer London over the past twenty years.
|
|
|
Post by george on Jul 31, 2019 21:51:11 GMT
When lots buses descend on BN in the evening, do the 59/137/319 stand on the road outside the garage? I have seen loads of 137 LTs sitting outside BN because they are N LTs and BN drivers Pretty sure the N 137 batch are driven by N drivers/
|
|
|
Post by kmkcheng on Jul 31, 2019 22:52:02 GMT
Why should bus operators be told or need to do anything? It is TfL that arranges the stands if an operator wins a route that terminates at a garage that is not their own, as it’s set out in the tender specifications what the stand arrangements will be, to make it fair to all tenderers and not give the garage operator an advantage. For example, if someone other than Metroline were to win the 6, 52 or 98, the stand would be at Church End. Why so many examples of not only stand changes but route extensions, or even curtailments, when an incumbent operator loses a route that terminated at its garage? South Croydon, Red Deer, for instance on the 468 when Go Ahead won the route from Arriva. If there was an original specification by TfL I don't believe for a second that that was it. The stop just north of South Croydon Garage has probably lost more bph than any other in outer London over the past twenty years. The tender specs for the 468 was always to terminate at South Croydon Swan and Sugar Loaf. When it was operated by TC, Arriva decided to extend and stand at the garage (at no expense to TfL). Its the same with the 312 where if Arriva loses it, it would be curtailed to also stand at the Swan and Sugar Loaf stand. It’s also a similar situation with the 8 and Stagecoach where they extended to terminate and stand at BW. If someone else wins that, it will terminate where the tender specs say which I think is Old Ford. I don’t think there’s any route out for tender (the 171 might be an exception) that would have a garage specified as the stand. Ian Armstrong’s website has a few of the tender specs on it (though not necessarily the most recent) which will indicate where the stand will be. If an operator wins a route that happens to also terminate at their garage, they can negotiate with TfL to say can they stand at the garage instead of where it is mentioned in the tender specs.
|
|
|
Post by george on Jul 31, 2019 23:02:30 GMT
Why so many examples of not only stand changes but route extensions, or even curtailments, when an incumbent operator loses a route that terminated at its garage? South Croydon, Red Deer, for instance on the 468 when Go Ahead won the route from Arriva. If there was an original specification by TfL I don't believe for a second that that was it. The stop just north of South Croydon Garage has probably lost more bph than any other in outer London over the past twenty years. The tender specs for the 468 was always to terminate at South Croydon Swan and Sugar Loaf. When it was operated by TC, Arriva decided to extend and stand at the garage (at no expense to TfL). Its the same with the 312 where if Arriva loses it, it would be curtailed to also stand at the Swan and Sugar Loaf stand. It’s also a similar situation with the 8 and Stagecoach where they extended to terminate and stand at BW. If someone else wins that, it will terminate where the tender specs say which I think is Old Ford. I don’t think there’s any route out for tender (the 171 might be an exception) that would have a garage specified as the stand. Ian Armstrong’s website has a few of the tender specs on it (though not necessarily the most recent) which will indicate where the stand will be. If an operator wins a route that happens to also terminate at their garage, they can negotiate with TfL to say can they stand at the garage instead of where it is mentioned in the tender specs. Do you know what would happen to the 23?
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Aug 1, 2019 0:21:53 GMT
The tender specs for the 468 was always to terminate at South Croydon Swan and Sugar Loaf. When it was operated by TC, Arriva decided to extend and stand at the garage (at no expense to TfL). Its the same with the 312 where if Arriva loses it, it would be curtailed to also stand at the Swan and Sugar Loaf stand. It’s also a similar situation with the 8 and Stagecoach where they extended to terminate and stand at BW. If someone else wins that, it will terminate where the tender specs say which I think is Old Ford. I don’t think there’s any route out for tender (the 171 might be an exception) that would have a garage specified as the stand. Ian Armstrong’s website has a few of the tender specs on it (though not necessarily the most recent) which will indicate where the stand will be. If an operator wins a route that happens to also terminate at their garage, they can negotiate with TfL to say can they stand at the garage instead of where it is mentioned in the tender specs. Do you know what would happen to the 23? www.londonbuses.co.uk/Tender-specs/23-N23.pdf - older tender specs for the 23. On page 3, it states a stand no longer than 5 minutes running time from the terminus at Westbourne Park, Elkstone Road - my assumption being Elgin Avenue would be the likely one
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2019 9:48:00 GMT
I have seen loads of 137 LTs sitting outside BN because they are N LTs and BN drivers Pretty sure the N 137 batch are driven by N drivers/ I'm pretty sure you are correct and N drivers take breaks at BN.
|
|
|
Post by COBO on Aug 1, 2019 22:42:45 GMT
Are there routes in the Woolwich and Plumstead areas that use diesels?
|
|
|
Post by Mokujin on Aug 1, 2019 22:49:49 GMT
Are there routes in the Woolwich and Plumstead areas that use diesels? 51, 96 (partly), 99, 178, 180, 244, 291, 301, 380, 386, 422 (partly), 469, 472 (partly), 658 (partly), 672 (depends as it pretty much uses anything out of PD)
|
|
|
Post by COBO on Aug 1, 2019 23:15:18 GMT
Are there routes in the Woolwich and Plumstead areas that use diesels? 51, 96 (partly), 99, 178, 180, 244, 291, 301, 380, 386, 422 (partly), 469, 472 (partly), 658 (partly), 672 (depends as it pretty much uses anything out of PD) Thanks I’m in argument in argument with someone who has rose tinted glasses over Stagecoach and trying to point out there faults.
|
|