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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2013 9:20:51 GMT
In fact, further to my above comment, does anyone think the London Bus network has been simplified *too* much, leading to say a waste of resources and a less optimal network match than might otherwise be the case?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2013 10:09:22 GMT
I would have thought cheaper if anything,even if drivers are paid more less traffic congestion means less fuel consumption and the buses would only be sat in the garage otherwise. I think it depends how you look at it. Yes fuel consumption would be less but revenue would probably be less as well as most night buses are busy with the flow only - coming out of London with earlier journeys and coming into London on later journeys. If London was deregulated I think a lot of frequencies would be lower, some routes would only run at weekends and most routes that don't hit central London would not run. From a local to me perspective, routes such as 37/295 do not load heavily at all overnight Friday/Saturday nights excepted. I often use the 04.00 295 between Clapham Junction and Hammersmith to get to work and it normally only carries 5-10 people maximum, sometimes less. I then change to the N11, albeit useful for me, takes a very odd route between Hammersmith and Ealing from a night perspective. Very few people appear to use stops in the back roads it starts to serve and I'm sure that other routes take most of the passengers to and from Central London and Hammersmith/Acton/Ealing. The N11 is in the style of a traditional night bus route taking in two or more major day routes. Many of today's night routes - aside from the 24-hour routes - consist simply of the day route with a little bit stuck on the end (73/N73 for example)
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Post by snoggle on Sept 28, 2013 11:18:22 GMT
In fact, further to my above comment, does anyone think the London Bus network has been simplified *too* much, leading to say a waste of resources and a less optimal network match than might otherwise be the case? In order to answer that question in a meaningful way I think it is important to understand what you mean by "simplififed too much" and what "less optimal network match" means. If the network was "simplified" as usually happens in commercial networks then there would be far fewer "twiddly" routes and just a huge reliance on routes serving main corridors. That might work in places smaller than London where operators are content not to bother with "round the corner" or local routes. London's usage levels are such that those services are important to ensure people can get to local facilities, stations and that people have some service close by. If the network was "simplified" I'd assume those services would go. I think we also need to understand your second point - are you saying that services that may have lower usage should simply be dumped so that we can over resource trunk routes? What is not clear is the extent to which things like good frequencies, earlier starts, later finishes and end to end service patterns help generate and sustain patronage. This to me is the crux - if you start to complicate service patterns and trim back what is "less optimal" do you end up making services less attractive and therefore you lose passengers. If you redeploy buses to "more optimal" routes do you end up just relieving overcrowding but do not gain extra passengers? While some people keep wanting to jump into the Tardis and whisk us back to the 1970s LT where is the evidence that service quality, reliability and patronage were better then than now?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2013 11:21:09 GMT
Most publicly funded organisations are under enormous financial pressure, I don't see why TfL should be any different. There seems to be no cohesive plan for the nightbus network, some areas have an excessive service, some an inadequate service and some areas have none at all. Well I am just one of those tedious people who sees transport as an absolutely essential public service that should be properly funded. The current policies being imposed on TfL are ridiculously short sighted and risk damage to the balance of transport choices as well as London's economy. Buses play an essential if somewhat unsung role in supporting commerce, education and mobility for everyone living in and visiting London. Therefore they should be funded properly even if taxes have to go up to pay for it. Taxes pay for essential services. I am glad you point out the lack of a plan - what is the point of spending non existent cash to develop a plan when there is no money to implement any changes that would result from such a plan? You develop plans in response to a strategy - the Mayor has *no* strategy in respect of buses and certainly not night buses. Surely that is evident to everyone by now? He thinks you solve all the problems with bus travel by building a new bus which is so huge that it can only run on a limited number of routes. You only need to read posts on this group alongside the hundreds of ideas of revised or new routes to see the scale of the problems and issues that people perceive. London deserves better than what we have now in terms of a strategy for bus travel. Yes I agree that public transport should be properly funded, equally the funds should be properly spent and not wasted on pointless things like replacing yellow on black blinds with white on black ones. In any case electronic LED displays would be far more cost effective (I realise that subject has been discussed at some lengths before) but TfL stubbornly refuse to accept them. Anyway this thread is supposed to be about the N213, and nightbuses in general, and the fact is there has never been a cohesive nightbus network and so Boris Johnson is somewhat irrelevant to this thread.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 28, 2013 11:58:52 GMT
Well I am just one of those tedious people who sees transport as an absolutely essential public service that should be properly funded. The current policies being imposed on TfL are ridiculously short sighted and risk damage to the balance of transport choices as well as London's economy. Buses play an essential if somewhat unsung role in supporting commerce, education and mobility for everyone living in and visiting London. Therefore they should be funded properly even if taxes have to go up to pay for it. Taxes pay for essential services. I am glad you point out the lack of a plan - what is the point of spending non existent cash to develop a plan when there is no money to implement any changes that would result from such a plan? You develop plans in response to a strategy - the Mayor has *no* strategy in respect of buses and certainly not night buses. Surely that is evident to everyone by now? He thinks you solve all the problems with bus travel by building a new bus which is so huge that it can only run on a limited number of routes. You only need to read posts on this group alongside the hundreds of ideas of revised or new routes to see the scale of the problems and issues that people perceive. London deserves better than what we have now in terms of a strategy for bus travel. Yes I agree that public transport should be properly funded, equally the funds should be properly spent and not wasted on pointless things like replacing yellow on black blinds with white on black ones. In any case electronic LED displays would be far more cost effective (I realise that subject has been discussed at some lengths before) but TfL stubbornly refuse to accept them. Anyway this thread is supposed to be about the N213, and nightbuses in general, and the fact is there has never been a cohesive nightbus network and so Boris Johnson is somewhat irrelevant to this thread. Wrong - he's the man in charge and his decisions and policies frame everything else. You have not defined what you mean by "cohesive night bus network". Perhaps if you did then we would understand the point you are struggling to make?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2013 13:39:33 GMT
Who is 'we'? I am not struggling to make any point, you are struggling to understand it because you cannot see past your obsession about Boris. Its not his fault that the N213 was withdrawn and places like South Norwood, Ruislip and Upminster have no night service yet other routes have an excessive night service.
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Post by jrussa on Feb 24, 2014 14:45:35 GMT
Hello everyone! This is the third time I have resurrected this thread! I feel like the Terminator. The Right Honourable Tom Brake, who is a Deputy Leader of the House of Commons as well as the MP for Carshalton and Wallington posted the following on his facebook page: "The people of Sutton need a reliable, 24 hour public transport service and TFL are not providing this. I’m calling on the Mayor to rectify this by extending the 154 bus service by just 3 hours so that people will be able to link up with the 24 hour services that run from Croydon to the rest of the capital. The people of Sutton need this affordable and safe service and that is why I’m calling for London’s Mayor to make this change. Sign the petition here: eepurl.com/LTOB9"Here are some comments people have posted on his fb:Ernest J Andrews: remember the crews that drive these buses have families too. Nicola Jackson: The N44 goes to Sutton; and you can link up with other night buses in tooting and Wandsworth x Spencer Lcuxford This inludes Rail. Southern are beyond a joke. 3 hours ago · Like · 5 Adam Gunton: Thank you for posting this. This would make life so complete! 3 hours ago · Like · 2 Karen Biggs: it be nice to get back an night bus that serve the borough properly. the N44 used i remember go part of the 154 route. then the N213 started but that stopped. i keep having to get taxi the last part home, from when i'm finished work in London. 3 hours ago · Like · 1 Adam Gunton: I just don't get why they can't extend it for that 3 hours. People will happily work overtime 3 hours ago · Like · 1 Divna Paraskova: I need 157 not 154!! It's a lot of money to pay for cabs when we go out in Croydon. On New Years it is amazing as I got home safe, not having to pay like £20 (for a student it is a lot). So have a 157 which runs all night would be totally amazing 2 hours ago · Like · 1 What is your opinion on the proposal made by Tom Brake? Do you believe it is a good proposal? Should it be the 157 and not the 154, (mentioned by one of his constituent's) that becomes a 24 hour service? Should the N213 just be re-instated and end of discussion?
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Post by Mokujin on Feb 24, 2014 15:23:35 GMT
Bring back the N213.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 24, 2014 15:39:06 GMT
Mr Brake will see no progress until the Mayor is changed. His petition is utterly pointless until May 2016.
It is completely evident that councillors and other politicians across London are fed up to the back teeth with no major progress on improving bus services. I sat in a room for three hours with over 50 of them last week and you could see how annoyed they are with badly performing bus routes and it taking years and years to secure any meaningful improvement. Someone cited the example of Lavender Fields (due to get the S1 shortly) and apparently it has taken nearly a decade to get that extension sorted out despite the area being outside the 400 metres planning distance that TfL use for access to the bus network. Leon Daniels basically stonewalled for nearly 3 hours because he has no money for substantive improvements and he has no policy that would allow him to argue for more money. It was like "Groundhog Day" expect it was "Groundhog Bus Seminar".
If you want better buses then vote for a politician that has a policy to deliver them and will find the money. I tweeted Christian Wolmar (a potential Mayoral candidate) last week in his #askWolmar session for his views on how to improve buses and got zero response. He did answer some other questions where he obviously had more of an opinion.
Sorry to keep repeating this but it is the factual position that we are in.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 15:53:04 GMT
Why not make the Tramlink 24 hours then...
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Post by ilovelondonbuses on Feb 24, 2014 16:13:57 GMT
I think 157 should be a 24 hour route. It would also provide a night bus link to Norwood Junction which urgently needs a night bus link
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Post by LX09FBJ on Feb 24, 2014 19:07:13 GMT
The N213 should be reinstated, as to get to Kingston from Croydon now by night bus, you have to catch two buses (264 and 57)
Or make the X26 into an 'NX26', reroute the Kingston-New Malden section via 213 and make it a limited stop service between Kingston and Heathrow then stopping all the way to Croydon. Hourly Sunday-Thursday and half-hourly on Friday/Saturday nights. Failing that, introduce a night service on the X26 (and possibly 407)
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Post by vjaska on Feb 24, 2014 19:41:15 GMT
I think 157 should be a 24 hour route. It would also provide a night bus link to Norwood Junction which urgently needs a night bus link Whilst it's a good idea & one I would support, it would be run just as terrible as the 157 currently is.
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Post by Hassaan on Feb 25, 2014 0:30:31 GMT
Hello everyone! This is the third time I have resurrected this thread! I feel like the Terminator. The Right Honourable Tom Brake, who is a Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons as well as the MP for Carshalton and Wallington posted the following on his facebook page: "The people of Sutton need a reliable, 24 hour public transport service and TFL are not providing this. I’m calling on the Mayor to rectify this by extending the 154 bus service by just 3 hours so that people will be able to link up with the 24 hour services that run from Croydon to the rest of the capital. The people of Sutton need this affordable and safe service and that is why I’m calling for London’s Mayor to make this change. Sign the petition here: eepurl.com/LTOB9"Here are some comments people have posted on his fb:Ernest J Andrews: remember the crews that drive these buses have families too. Nicola Jackson: The N44 goes to Sutton; and you can link up with other night buses in tooting and Wandsworth x Spencer Lcuxford This inludes Rail. Southern are beyond a joke. 3 hours ago · Like · 5 Adam Gunton: Thank you for posting this. This would make life so complete! 3 hours ago · Like · 2 Karen Biggs: it be nice to get back an night bus that serve the borough properly. the N44 used i remember go part of the 154 route. then the N213 started but that stopped. i keep having to get taxi the last part home, from when i'm finished work in London. 3 hours ago · Like · 1 Adam Gunton: I just don't get why they can't extend it for that 3 hours. People will happily work overtime 3 hours ago · Like · 1 Divna Paraskova: I need 157 not 154!! It's a lot of money to pay for cabs when we go out in Croydon. On New Years it is amazing as I got home safe, not having to pay like £20 (for a student it is a lot). So have a 157 which runs all night would be totally amazing 2 hours ago · Like · 1 What is your opinion on the proposal made by Tom Brake? Do you believe it is a good proposal? Should it be the 157 and not the 154, (mentioned by one of his constituent's) that becomes a 24 hour service? Should the N213 just be re-instated and end of discussion?Nothing like an opportunity to have a go at a TOC I follow the SWT and now Southern Twitter feeds and see it all the time
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Post by vjaska on Feb 25, 2014 1:07:38 GMT
Hello everyone! This is the third time I have resurrected this thread! I feel like the Terminator. The Right Honourable Tom Brake, who is a Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons as well as the MP for Carshalton and Wallington posted the following on his facebook page: "The people of Sutton need a reliable, 24 hour public transport service and TFL are not providing this. I’m calling on the Mayor to rectify this by extending the 154 bus service by just 3 hours so that people will be able to link up with the 24 hour services that run from Croydon to the rest of the capital. The people of Sutton need this affordable and safe service and that is why I’m calling for London’s Mayor to make this change. Sign the petition here: eepurl.com/LTOB9"Here are some comments people have posted on his fb:Ernest J Andrews: remember the crews that drive these buses have families too. Nicola Jackson: The N44 goes to Sutton; and you can link up with other night buses in tooting and Wandsworth x Spencer Lcuxford This inludes Rail. Southern are beyond a joke. 3 hours ago · Like · 5 Adam Gunton: Thank you for posting this. This would make life so complete! 3 hours ago · Like · 2 Karen Biggs: it be nice to get back an night bus that serve the borough properly. the N44 used i remember go part of the 154 route. then the N213 started but that stopped. i keep having to get taxi the last part home, from when i'm finished work in London. 3 hours ago · Like · 1 Adam Gunton: I just don't get why they can't extend it for that 3 hours. People will happily work overtime 3 hours ago · Like · 1 Divna Paraskova: I need 157 not 154!! It's a lot of money to pay for cabs when we go out in Croydon. On New Years it is amazing as I got home safe, not having to pay like £20 (for a student it is a lot). So have a 157 which runs all night would be totally amazing 2 hours ago · Like · 1 What is your opinion on the proposal made by Tom Brake? Do you believe it is a good proposal? Should it be the 157 and not the 154, (mentioned by one of his constituent's) that becomes a 24 hour service? Should the N213 just be re-instated and end of discussion?Nothing like an opportunity to have a go at a TOC I follow the SWT and now Southern Twitter feeds and see it all the time Anytime I've used Southern or SWT, I've not had any major issues - I did have a Brighton train delayed by about 20 minutes once but I wern't in an absolute hurry that day lol.
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