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Post by vjaska on Nov 10, 2013 19:51:10 GMT
Can I ask what category you put the 109 into as it runs neither into South East or South West. Brixton & Streatham's postcodes are SW rather than SE which would probably class the route more in SW London - my only niggle. No surprise to hear the 410 is the busiest midi-bus route, it's never empty! Looking forward to seeing this spreadsheet. I put N-S routes ending at Croydon into South East. Places which are broadly north or broadly south of Central London are difficult to classify and there are quite a few routes which are hard to deal with. If the 109 was categorised as SW then it would be the top route. Not sure how the spreadsheet can be shared via the group as I have no webspace and I don't think Proboards host files on group (but I might be wrong on that). Cheers for the reply and for clearing that up. I'm really shocked that no one is surprised by how busy the 109 is. I knew it was busy but never that busy!
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Post by Steve80 on Nov 12, 2013 5:56:35 GMT
Yes, I still look at the list with interest and discovering new surprises such as why is the N68 (position 526) is still trundling along with its 30 mins all week frequency, yet routes like the N109 (position 535) apparently carries less passengers and has a much greater frequency. Of course, the N68 is a much longer route and there has been many times when a N109 has left me behind at the stop because its too busy to get on. I would love to see more stats such as the busiest route by region - eg. south east London, south west and so on, the busiest midi route and also the top 10 quieter routes. By the way, the W15 (not W5) is the busiest single deck route. I have been adding categories (albeit a bit arbitary in their definition) to my spreadsheet of the data. The busiest Midi route is the 410 - I've assumed a midi route is run with single decks shorter than 10m - followed by the W4, 450, 393 and 192. They all carry more than 2.9m pax p.a. The quietest day route, excluding schools and mobility bus routes, is the 399 which surprised me slightly. I thought it would be the 389. Geography is harder to deal with. I thought about using Boroughs but many routes are allocated to more than one borough because that's where they run. I looked at TfL's borough performance reports to see if they have allocated routes to 1 borough but they don't. Oddly, though, route 5 is not shown under Havering despite it serving Romford! Some routes will be relatively easy to allocate to a quadrant but when you get to the overlap areas like Croydon then it gets very difficult - TfL's quadrant bus maps have Croydon on both the SE and SW Maps. Yes, I went past a ridiculously busy 410 on last Sunday around 4pm in East Croydon. Its not the first time I observed a busy 410 and there have been a few occasions when they have driven past a stop without picking me up (although its not a big problem as I can use other routes) but I never realised how busy it is on a Sunday. And the 450, I seen the bus arrive at the first stop in West Croydon and it leaves there with passengers standing right to the front. But I wonder what is the issue with the 450 as to why it unable to takes longer buses? I guessing Bensham Lane has something to do with it. Spa hill and Northwood Avenue is certainly not an issue as I have driven tridents along those roads. As for the spreadsheet, I been meaning to allocate each routes based on tfl bus maps. I didn't realise Croydon and Brixton was on both the SE and SW maps so I might have to think of another way. I will get a better look into it when I finally get my day off from work.
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Post by Steve80 on Nov 12, 2013 6:24:46 GMT
I put N-S routes ending at Croydon into South East. Places which are broadly north or broadly south of Central London are difficult to classify and there are quite a few routes which are hard to deal with. If the 109 was categorised as SW then it would be the top route. Not sure how the spreadsheet can be shared via the group as I have no webspace and I don't think Proboards host files on group (but I might be wrong on that). Cheers for the reply and for clearing that up. I'm really shocked that no one is surprised by how busy the 109 is. I knew it was busy but never that busy! Im not too surprised to see the 109 is 19th on that list and numbers have been rising since 2001. One occasion after doing a night shift at Battersea Garage, I decided to get on the 109 at Streatham st leonards at 6am sunday morning and the bus was extremely busy all the way to Croydon! Thankfully, there is no more need for me to travel regularly to and from Croydon going via Streatham or Brixton. And if I do have to make such journeys again then I will wait for the 50. Personally for me, there should be another route running along the same section as the 109 between Thornton Heath and Streatham Hill, or maybe increase the frequency of the 50.
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Post by bengady3 on Nov 12, 2013 6:53:34 GMT
I have been adding categories (albeit a bit arbitary in their definition) to my spreadsheet of the data. The busiest Midi route is the 410 - I've assumed a midi route is run with single decks shorter than 10m - followed by the W4, 450, 393 and 192. They all carry more than 2.9m pax p.a. The quietest day route, excluding schools and mobility bus routes, is the 399 which surprised me slightly. I thought it would be the 389. Geography is harder to deal with. I thought about using Boroughs but many routes are allocated to more than one borough because that's where they run. I looked at TfL's borough performance reports to see if they have allocated routes to 1 borough but they don't. Oddly, though, route 5 is not shown under Havering despite it serving Romford! Some routes will be relatively easy to allocate to a quadrant but when you get to the overlap areas like Croydon then it gets very difficult - TfL's quadrant bus maps have Croydon on both the SE and SW Maps. Yes, I went past a ridiculously busy 410 on last Sunday around 4pm in East Croydon. Its not the first time I observed a busy 410 and there have been a few occasions when they have driven past a stop without picking me up (although its not a big problem as I can use other routes) but I never realised how busy it is on a Sunday. And the 450, I seen the bus arrive at the first stop in West Croydon and it leaves there with passengers standing right to the front. But I wonder what is the issue with the 450 as to why it unable to takes longer buses? I guessing Bensham Lane has something to do with it. Spa hill and Northwood Avenue is certainly not an issue as I have driven tridents along those roads. As for the spreadsheet, I been meaning to allocate each routes based on tfl bus maps. I didn't realise Croydon and Brixton was on both the SE and SW maps so I might have to think of another way. I will get a better look into it when I finally get my day off from work. I'm not surprised about the routes 450 and 410 as they are always busy but arriva should do something
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2013 8:36:00 GMT
Yes, I went past a ridiculously busy 410 on last Sunday around 4pm in East Croydon. Its not the first time I observed a busy 410 and there have been a few occasions when they have driven past a stop without picking me up (although its not a big problem as I can use other routes) but I never realised how busy it is on a Sunday. And the 450, I seen the bus arrive at the first stop in West Croydon and it leaves there with passengers standing right to the front. But I wonder what is the issue with the 450 as to why it unable to takes longer buses? I guessing Bensham Lane has something to do with it. Spa hill and Northwood Avenue is certainly not an issue as I have driven tridents along those roads. As for the spreadsheet, I been meaning to allocate each routes based on tfl bus maps. I didn't realise Croydon and Brixton was on both the SE and SW maps so I might have to think of another way. I will get a better look into it when I finally get my day off from work. I'm not surprised about the routes 450 and 410 as they are always busy but arriva should do something Why Arriva ... surely it is TfL's responsibility
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2013 11:42:49 GMT
I'm not surprised about the routes 450 and 410 as they are always busy but arriva should do something Why Arriva ... surely it is TfL's responsibility Exactly...............Arriva will do something when TfL tell them I think a new double deck route from Croydon via the 468 route to Upper Norwood, the 249 to Crystal Palace and then taking over the section of the 450 to Lower Sydenhamn and maybe onto Lewisham replacing part of the 181 could perhaps be justified? This would take a lot of pressure off the 450 which could just run from Croydon to Crystal Palace.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2013 12:51:23 GMT
I have been adding categories (albeit a bit arbitary in their definition) to my spreadsheet of the data. The busiest Midi route is the 410 - I've assumed a midi route is run with single decks shorter than 10m - followed by the W4, 450, 393 and 192. They all carry more than 2.9m pax p.a. The quietest day route, excluding schools and mobility bus routes, is the 399 which surprised me slightly. I thought it would be the 389. Geography is harder to deal with. I thought about using Boroughs but many routes are allocated to more than one borough because that's where they run. I looked at TfL's borough performance reports to see if they have allocated routes to 1 borough but they don't. Oddly, though, route 5 is not shown under Havering despite it serving Romford! Some routes will be relatively easy to allocate to a quadrant but when you get to the overlap areas like Croydon then it gets very difficult - TfL's quadrant bus maps have Croydon on both the SE and SW Maps. Yes, I went past a ridiculously busy 410 on last Sunday around 4pm in East Croydon. Its not the first time I observed a busy 410 and there have been a few occasions when they have driven past a stop without picking me up (although its not a big problem as I can use other routes) but I never realised how busy it is on a Sunday. And the 450, I seen the bus arrive at the first stop in West Croydon and it leaves there with passengers standing right to the front. But I wonder what is the issue with the 450 as to why it unable to takes longer buses? I guessing Bensham Lane has something to do with it. Spa hill and Northwood Avenue is certainly not an issue as I have driven tridents along those roads. As for the spreadsheet, I been meaning to allocate each routes based on tfl bus maps. I didn't realise Croydon and Brixton was on both the SE and SW maps so I might have to think of another way. I will get a better look into it when I finally get my day off from work. 4pm is about the busiest time of day in town centres like Croydon as shops start closing and people head home but it all quietens down an hour or so later
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Post by vjaska on Nov 12, 2013 14:25:50 GMT
Why Arriva ... surely it is TfL's responsibility Exactly...............Arriva will do something when TfL tell them I think a new double deck route from Croydon via the 468 route to Upper Norwood, the 249 to Crystal Palace and then taking over the section of the 450 to Lower Sydenhamn and maybe onto Lewisham replacing part of the 181 could perhaps be justified? This would take a lot of pressure off the 450 which could just run from Croydon to Crystal Palace. It would take pressure off the 468 but not the 450 - I was a regular user of the 450 during my college years in the mid 00's and it caters more for very local links along the back streets. Personally, I'd cut the 450 back from Lower Sydenham to Palace and then extend it to Loughborough Junction via the 3 to Park Hall Road, then Rosendale Road, Herne Hill & Milkwood Road. The 322 can then take over the 450 to Lower Sydenham.
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Post by bengady3 on Nov 12, 2013 17:00:27 GMT
Exactly...............Arriva will do something when TfL tell them I think a new double deck route from Croydon via the 468 route to Upper Norwood, the 249 to Crystal Palace and then taking over the section of the 450 to Lower Sydenhamn and maybe onto Lewisham replacing part of the 181 could perhaps be justified? This would take a lot of pressure off the 450 which could just run from Croydon to Crystal Palace. It would take pressure off the 468 but not the 450 - I was a regular user of the 450 during my college years in the mid 00's and it caters more for very local links along the back streets. Personally, I'd cut the 450 back from Lower Sydenham to Palace and then extend it to Loughborough Junction via the 3 to Park Hall Road, then Rosendale Road, Herne Hill & Milkwood Road. The 322 can then take over the 450 to Lower Sydenham. The 450 gets packed in like 2-3 stops from Lower Sydenham but it would be interesting to see who from lower sydenham would use the route a lot and would be packed in like 2 stops if the 322 was extended there
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Nov 12, 2013 17:47:42 GMT
The double deckers may be too large for the back streets round the Kingswood Estate.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2013 18:03:03 GMT
Why Arriva ... surely it is TfL's responsibility Exactly...............Arriva will do something when TfL tell them I think a new double deck route from Croydon via the 468 route to Upper Norwood, the 249 to Crystal Palace and then taking over the section of the 450 to Lower Sydenhamn and maybe onto Lewisham replacing part of the 181 could perhaps be justified? This would take a lot of pressure off the 450 which could just run from Croydon to Crystal Palace. I am sure Arriva would happily take TfL money to do something to the 410 ... but are TfL willing to stump up the money ... and from a driver I know says that increasing buses on the route will increase the occasions where buses have difficulty in passing each other on the Norwood Junction to Crystal Palace section ... the number of times I have been on one where two buses have been unable to pass resulting in on having to reverse - oh in case you say anything about the drivers quite often you can not see the other bus when you first enter the narrow stretches. As for your double deck idea ... I can only see that happening it the 468 is reduce on a one for one basis over the common section, which I am not sure would be a good move.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2013 19:19:46 GMT
Exactly...............Arriva will do something when TfL tell them I think a new double deck route from Croydon via the 468 route to Upper Norwood, the 249 to Crystal Palace and then taking over the section of the 450 to Lower Sydenhamn and maybe onto Lewisham replacing part of the 181 could perhaps be justified? This would take a lot of pressure off the 450 which could just run from Croydon to Crystal Palace. I am sure Arriva would happily take TfL money to do something to the 410 ... but are TfL willing to stump up the money ... and from a driver I know says that increasing buses on the route will increase the occasions where buses have difficulty in passing each other on the Norwood Junction to Crystal Palace section ... the number of times I have been on one where two buses have been unable to pass resulting in on having to reverse - oh in case you say anything about the drivers quite often you can not see the other bus when you first enter the narrow stretches. As for your double deck idea ... I can only see that happening it the 468 is reduce on a one for one basis over the common section, which I am not sure would be a good move. This is the problem on many back road routes, increase the PVR and you increase the chances of buses meeting on narrow sections. That idea for a new route would be in addition to the existing 468 which gets very busy at the Croydon end. Instead of this half baked tram extension to Crystal Palace I think the money would be better spent improving bus links.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2013 19:20:59 GMT
Exactly...............Arriva will do something when TfL tell them I think a new double deck route from Croydon via the 468 route to Upper Norwood, the 249 to Crystal Palace and then taking over the section of the 450 to Lower Sydenhamn and maybe onto Lewisham replacing part of the 181 could perhaps be justified? This would take a lot of pressure off the 450 which could just run from Croydon to Crystal Palace. I am sure Arriva would happily take TfL money to do something to the 410 ... but are TfL willing to stump up the money ... and from a driver I know says that increasing buses on the route will increase the occasions where buses have difficulty in passing each other on the Norwood Junction to Crystal Palace section ... the number of times I have been on one where two buses have been unable to pass resulting in on having to reverse - oh in case you say anything about the drivers quite often you can not see the other bus when you first enter the narrow stretches. As for your double deck idea ... I can only see that happening it the 468 is reduce on a one for one basis over the common section, which I am not sure would be a good move. This is the problem on many back road routes, increase the PVR and you increase the chances of buses meeting on narrow sections. That idea for a new route would be in addition to the existing 468 which gets very busy at the Croydon end. Instead of this half baked tram extension to Crystal Palace I think the money would be better spent improving bus links.
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Post by Connor on Nov 12, 2013 19:23:22 GMT
The double deckers may be too large for the back streets round the Kingswood Estate. You wouldn't double deck the 450, you'd create a new route that doesn't serve the small back roads and loop of the 450. Antman- you wouldn't route it via the 468 between Croydon and Upper Norwood as you'd miss Thornton Heath where most people board and alight. You'd route it via the 250 to Green Lane where it would branch off via Norbury Hill to Norwood, then onwards via the 417. That's the most direct and useful routing that I can think of, plus it would serve Norbury Hill which is currently not served by buses.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 12, 2013 20:24:04 GMT
The double deckers may be too large for the back streets round the Kingswood Estate. You wouldn't double deck the 450, you'd create a new route that doesn't serve the small back roads and loop of the 450. Antman- you wouldn't route it via the 468 between Croydon and Upper Norwood as you'd miss Thornton Heath where most people board and alight. You'd route it via the 250 to Green Lane where it would branch off via Norbury Hill to Norwood, then onwards via the 417. That's the most direct and useful routing that I can think of, plus it would serve Norbury Hill which is currently not served by buses. I really don't see a need for this route - the 450 could be enhanced just by removing the traffic islands on Queens Road and enforcing parking restrictions on Windmill Road allowing longer buses to be used - heck, even deckers could be used as Bensham Lane to Crystal Palace Parade would be fine for deckers. On another note, the 450 doesn't really need to go to Lower Sydenham - majority of passengers from both ends get off at Palace so the 450 should either be cut back to Palace or follow my idea of extending to Loughborough Junction via College Road, Dulwich Wood Park, South Croxted Road, Park Hall Road, Rosendale Road, Norwood Road, Herne Hill & Milkwood Road. With the exception of Herne Hill, it runs along congested free roads and opens up lots of new links & also runs along sections of three roads that is currently not served by buses. An extended 315 from West Norwood would take over the Kingswood Drive/College Road/Fountain Driver section.
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