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Post by Connor on Jan 14, 2014 8:49:09 GMT
The 136 could possibly go along London Road and stand with the 155 and 468, assuming there is enough space for an additional route to park there. It would also benefit in creating a minor yet effective round-the-corner link from that part of the Elephant into the southbound 343 routing. Alternatively the 136 could terminate at Borough Station and stand where I've seen the 17 presently stand (i'm assuming the latter stands there on a temporary basis due to work in London Bridge bus station). A question? Why would terminate the 136 at London road? Surely Newington Causeway is the best and most logical terminus as the first stop will be the same as the 343, both routes sharing a common bus stops all the way to Rye Lane, no point in it serving London road as the 53, 171, 172 & 453 all provide links to New Cross at that point. The 136 on the other hand will support the 343 so no point in the terminus being London Road. Elephant & Castle is not really an easy crossing area so imo it would be a lot better to have the 136 serving Newington Causeway with the 343, so the second bus stop is not flooded with people who want either bus to turn up instead of Picking and choosing to wait at London Road or Causeway. You may notice the 333 & 468 both start at common bus stops with the 68/133. I doubt having the 136 starting from London Road will benefit anyone from that stop apart from pickers and choosers of the 136 & 343, the second stop Elephant & Castle Station may even become busier. It would benefit people if the 136 started at London Road. I remember when I used to live along the 343 that interchange between New Kent Road bus routes and the 343 was cumbersome; either trek via to Newington Causeway or take any other Camberwell bound bus a single stop. I'd definitely support the route starting at London Road, it just makes the route that bit more useful.
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Post by Connor on Jan 14, 2014 8:55:27 GMT
I like the proposal - not only does it help out the 343 over its troublesome section but it also gives new links like Lewisham, Downham & Grove Park with Elephant & Castle. The 136 was pretty much the only suitable candidate to be chosen for the extension as the other terminating routes at Peckham are unsuitable due to the length & traffic they encounter - imagine a 37, 177 or 345 extended up to Elephant via North Peckham, it just wouldn't work. An extended 521 would simply not work - the 521's role is basically a short commuter route between two mainline stations. Personally, that & the 507 should of retained their Artics as they suited to the two routes. When the old estates in North Peckham and further up by the Old Kent Road have their construction completed, their will be even more demand for both the 136 & 343 along that section. The Citaros could also possibly encounter tight turns too. The 168 *could* have also been a good candidate. The 136 was definitely the right choice though.
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Post by DT 11 on Jan 14, 2014 9:04:40 GMT
A question? Why would terminate the 136 at London road? Surely Newington Causeway is the best and most logical terminus as the first stop will be the same as the 343, both routes sharing a common bus stops all the way to Rye Lane, no point in it serving London road as the 53, 171, 172 & 453 all provide links to New Cross at that point. The 136 on the other hand will support the 343 so no point in the terminus being London Road. Elephant & Castle is not really an easy crossing area so imo it would be a lot better to have the 136 serving Newington Causeway with the 343, so the second bus stop is not flooded with people who want either bus to turn up instead of Picking and choosing to wait at London Road or Causeway. You may notice the 333 & 468 both start at common bus stops with the 68/133. I doubt having the 136 starting from London Road will benefit anyone from that stop apart from pickers and choosers of the 136 & 343, the second stop Elephant & Castle Station may even become busier. It would benefit people if the 136 started at London Road. I remember when I used to live along the 343 that interchange between New Kent Road bus routes and the 343 was cumbersome; either trek via to Newington Causeway or take any other Camberwell bound bus a single stop. I'd definitely support the route starting at London Road, it just makes the route that bit more useful. It really wouldn't Imo, it is 1 bus stop in London Road make it more useful? The busier stop will be Newington Causeway with the 343 as the frequency is higher than the 136. Elephant & Castle is just one big junction, why do you think the 333 & 468 both terminate & start with common stops with the 68 & 133, makes sense to have all the like for like routes in one place otherwise it will just make bus services not easy to access. It is more sensible and logical for the 136 to start and finish at Newington Causway to even the flow of users using the bus services. Anyone who wishes to get to London Road can get off at Newington Causeway and walk, not good to be lazy, there is no road to cross from that point either, unless a person wants the other side of the road.
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Post by sw11simon on Jan 14, 2014 9:19:38 GMT
The 136 could possibly go along London Road and stand with the 155 and 468, assuming there is enough space for an additional route to park there. It would also benefit in creating a minor yet effective round-the-corner link from that part of the Elephant into the southbound 343 routing. Alternatively the 136 could terminate at Borough Station and stand where I've seen the 17 presently stand (i'm assuming the latter stands there on a temporary basis due to work in London Bridge bus station). A question? Why terminate the 136 at London Road? Surely Newington Causeway is the best and most logical terminus as the first stop of the 136 will be the same as the 343, both routes sharing a common bus stops all the way to Rye Lane, no point in it serving 1 bus stop in London Road as the 53, 171, 172 & 453 all provide links to New Cross at that point, the 136 is there to address the overcrowding issues along the 343, not to provide a non-required 1 stop link to London Road, which people can easily walk once the bus has arrived at Newington Causeway, returning to Peckham would be difficult to anyone if one bus stopped in Newington Causeway and the other in London Road, most people will of course be used to Causeway and continue using it and ignoring the London Road stop for the 136, also the 343 is more frequent than the 136 so many will obviously choose Newington Causway over London Road. The 136 will support the 343 so no point in the terminus being London Road. Elephant & Castle is not really an easy crossing area either imo, so it is more logical to have Like for like routes serving the same stops that terminate at Elephant & Castle, so the second bus stop is not flooded with people who want either bus to turn up instead of Picking and choosing to wait at London Road or Newington Causeway. You may notice the 333 & 468 both start at common bus stops with the 68/133, this allows people in Elephant to board either route without having to go to another bus stop in the other side of Elephant & Castle. I doubt having the 136 starting from London Road will benefit anyone from that stop apart from pickers and choosers of the 136 & 343, the second stop Elephant & Castle Station may even become busier. Say if the 333 & 468 swapped terminal, there would be a increase of people waiting at Elephant & Castle Station. Or you create a slight new link. People changing buses from central London from routes 1/53/188/453 may like the idea of a route starting in London Road to North Peckham for easy and safe interchange interchange. The 155/333 do not start at the same stop currently despite running in tandem to Stockwell. In Elephant, it is the Newington Butts stops that have all the loadings - the common Newington Causeway stop suggested is generally quiet in comparison. My only concern with this proposal is that the bus may be already busy when it enters North Peckham northbound, where the capacity is targeted. I think once it passes New Cross it will create a more appealing link to Elephant than the 171 currently offers. The way it will run through Peckham will also miss a convenient interchange to the 63/363 which I suspect a lot of people currently make, leaving people to change at Elephant where more options are available. But all in all it is good that a solution has been found... in the long term I feel it may have been cheaper just to have a new shuttle between Peckham and Elephant though, guaranteeing the capacity where it is needed. It would not have offered many links, and may attract "useless route" comments, but it would do exactly what is needed and unlikely to need boosting in a couple of years due to overcrowding again!
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Post by DT 11 on Jan 14, 2014 9:29:10 GMT
A question? Why terminate the 136 at London Road? Surely Newington Causeway is the best and most logical terminus as the first stop of the 136 will be the same as the 343, both routes sharing a common bus stops all the way to Rye Lane, no point in it serving 1 bus stop in London Road as the 53, 171, 172 & 453 all provide links to New Cross at that point, the 136 is there to address the overcrowding issues along the 343, not to provide a non-required 1 stop link to London Road, which people can easily walk once the bus has arrived at Newington Causeway, returning to Peckham would be difficult to anyone if one bus stopped in Newington Causeway and the other in London Road, most people will of course be used to Causeway and continue using it and ignoring the London Road stop for the 136, also the 343 is more frequent than the 136 so many will obviously choose Newington Causway over London Road. The 136 will support the 343 so no point in the terminus being London Road. Elephant & Castle is not really an easy crossing area either imo, so it is more logical to have Like for like routes serving the same stops that terminate at Elephant & Castle, so the second bus stop is not flooded with people who want either bus to turn up instead of Picking and choosing to wait at London Road or Newington Causeway. You may notice the 333 & 468 both start at common bus stops with the 68/133, this allows people in Elephant to board either route without having to go to another bus stop in the other side of Elephant & Castle. I doubt having the 136 starting from London Road will benefit anyone from that stop apart from pickers and choosers of the 136 & 343, the second stop Elephant & Castle Station may even become busier. Say if the 333 & 468 swapped terminal, there would be a increase of people waiting at Elephant & Castle Station. Or you create a slight new link. People changing buses from central London from routes 1/53/188/453 may like the idea of a route starting in London Road to North Peckham for easy and safe interchange interchange. The 155/333 do not start at the same stop currently despite running in tandem to Stockwell. In Elephant, it is the Newington Butts stops that have all the loadings - the common Newington Causeway stop suggested is generally quiet in comparison. My only concern with this proposal is that the bus may be already busy when it enters North Peckham northbound, where the capacity is targeted. I think once it passes New Cross it will create a more appealing link to Elephant than the 171 currently offers. The way it will run through Peckham will also miss a convenient interchange to the 63/363 which I suspect a lot of people currently make, leaving people to change at Elephant where more options are available. But all in all it is good that a solution has been found... in the long term I feel it may have been cheaper just to have a new shuttle between Peckham and Elephant though, guaranteeing the capacity where it is needed. It would not have offered many links, and may attract "useless route" comments, but it would do exactly what is needed and unlikely to need boosting in a couple of years due to overcrowding again! True, but at the same time the 343 will be left alone at a busy bus stop then you get overcrowds of people waiting at the next stop E&C station, which is probably why the 63/363, 68/468, 133/333 all serve common stops in Elephant & Castle, I think the same should continue with the 136/343. London Road & Newington Causeway are quite simple roads to cross, I'm not a fan of St George's Road, New Kent Road and Newington Butts. The 155 is a standalone route, the 133/333 are linked even if the 333 goes via Stockwell. The 171 passengers should also benefit from this extension, as the 136 & 171 will both serve Elephant & Castle from Catford, meeting at New Cross, splitting at Peckham and again meeting up at Elephant & Castle.
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Post by Connor on Jan 14, 2014 10:00:38 GMT
It would benefit people if the 136 started at London Road. I remember when I used to live along the 343 that interchange between New Kent Road bus routes and the 343 was cumbersome; either trek via to Newington Causeway or take any other Camberwell bound bus a single stop. I'd definitely support the route starting at London Road, it just makes the route that bit more useful. It really wouldn't Imo, it is 1 bus stop in London Road make it more useful? The busier stop will be Newington Causeway with the 343 as the frequency is higher than the 136. Elephant & Castle is just one big junction, why do you think the 333 & 468 both terminate & start with common stops with the 68 & 133, makes sense to have all the like for like routes in one place otherwise it will just make bus services not easy to access. It is more sensible and logical for the 136 to start and finish at Newington Causway to even the flow of users using the bus services. Anyone who wishes to get to London Road can get off at Newington Causeway and walk, not good to be lazy, there is no road to cross from that point either, unless a person wants the other side of the road. Regarding those points...No One Cares!! All people care about is easy interchange between routes. The Newington Causeway stop is usually deserted and 343's barely pick up anyone there. Starting the 136 at London Road would provide a useful link and reduce those massive crowds that form at the 343 stop at E&C Station. So why you'd start the 136 at Newington Causeway (unless there are issues with stand spaces) is beyond me.
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Post by DT 11 on Jan 14, 2014 10:19:28 GMT
It really wouldn't Imo, it is 1 bus stop in London Road make it more useful? The busier stop will be Newington Causeway with the 343 as the frequency is higher than the 136. Elephant & Castle is just one big junction, why do you think the 333 & 468 both terminate & start with common stops with the 68 & 133, makes sense to have all the like for like routes in one place otherwise it will just make bus services not easy to access. It is more sensible and logical for the 136 to start and finish at Newington Causway to even the flow of users using the bus services. Anyone who wishes to get to London Road can get off at Newington Causeway and walk, not good to be lazy, there is no road to cross from that point either, unless a person wants the other side of the road. Regarding those points...No One Cares!! All people care about is easy interchange between routes. The Newington Causeway stop is usually deserted and 343's barely pick up anyone there. Starting the 136 at London Road would provide a useful link and reduce those massive crowds that form at the 343 stop at E&C Station. So why you'd start the 136 at Newington Causeway (unless there are issues with stand spaces) is beyond me. Really? You speak for yourself and no one else IMO. I find it a little biased and aimed at yourself as you stated something about getting off the 343 and getting on another bus to London road one stop, which just seems lazy imo, when it is in walking distance. Not every interchange is going to be easy, for everyone. I'm thinking about the 343 and the people who use it not the benefits of anyone who wishes to get to London Road from North Peckham it is in walking distance from Newington Causeway and even better for anyone who does not need to cross the road. The whole purpose of this 136 extension is to support the 343, which is far more important than any link from London Road. TFL have already proposed it to start from Newington Causeway which is very sensible imo. The Newington Causeway stop I've seen quite flooded with people using it in the peaks with the Elephant & Castle Station stop even busier, so if you have two like for like routes in two different parts of Elephant & Castle serving uncommon stops, What are users gonna do? Pick and choose, Use Elephant & Castle Station & Causeway, ignore the London Road stop as 343 users are currently used to it. The 343 isn't exactly reliable either, which makes it even more sensible to have the 136 serve every stop of the 343 from Newington Causeway to Rye Lane.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 14, 2014 11:37:34 GMT
Can I ask why we are having an increasingly personalised and vitriolic "discussion" (ahem) about the merits of a London Road stop when the consultation proposal from TfL says the route will stop and start in Newington Causeway? Some people here could start an argument in an empty paper bag. Let's face it - Elephant and Castle is a horrible place to change buses given the range of different routings through and across the area. You'll never get an ideal solution that optimises "common stops" and which provides near perfect interchange opportunities. Even if you demolished the Northern roundabout and built a run through bus station I doubt you'd get all the routes through there in an efficient manner without creating huge queues of buses trying to enter and leave.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 14:41:13 GMT
I think extending the 168 through North Peckham to Camberwell would have been a much better option, another route into Central London and a local link to Camberwell Green and possibly onto Kings College Hospital
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 16:38:21 GMT
The 168 *could* have also been a good candidate. The 136 was definitely the right choice though. Other problem with the 168 is, with the very high frequency (6-7 mins) it would've been more costly to extend, not to mention doubling the number of buses over the North Peckham which is possibly overkill. The other route which is ripe for some sort of extension is the 415 though that's half the frequency of the 343 so the effectiveness would be debatable. Surely the 168 frequency is a plus point? It will be adequate for sometime to come but it's doubtful whether the 136 will be more than a sticky plaster. The 168 frequency is the same as the 343 which would allow an even headway unlike the 136. The 415 is ripe for scrapping with the 432 extended to Elephant and the savings used to fund the 168.
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Post by M1104 on Jan 14, 2014 16:47:51 GMT
Other problem with the 168 is, with the very high frequency (6-7 mins) it would've been more costly to extend, not to mention doubling the number of buses over the North Peckham which is possibly overkill. The other route which is ripe for some sort of extension is the 415 though that's half the frequency of the 343 so the effectiveness would be debatable. The 415 is ripe for scrapping with the 432 extended to Elephant and the savings used to fund the 168. Although a brilliant idea with the 432 extension, would there be sufficient funds leftover for the 168 extension? Surely the 432 extension would more or less eat up the funding from the 415.
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Post by DT 11 on Jan 14, 2014 17:01:56 GMT
Renumber N136, N436. Is that really needed!?!?
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Post by Ice Prxnce on Jan 14, 2014 17:17:06 GMT
Renumber N136, N436. Is that really needed!?!? Why are they re-numbering it to N436 when 436 doesn't have anything to do with 136's extension? I do hope that this is an error that TFL has made. The N136 is much better than "N436".
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Post by DT 11 on Jan 14, 2014 17:32:13 GMT
Renumber N136, N436. Is that really needed!?!? Why are they re-numbering it to N436 when 436 doesn't have anything to do with 136's extension? I do hope that this is an error that TFL has made. The N136 is much better than "N436". I assume it's being done so the passengers of the 136, 343 & N343 don't assume the N136 serves their roads. The N136 covers the full 136 at present which is probably why it was numbered N136, N436 makes no sense either. Give the route a new number altogether which does not have "36" in it.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jan 14, 2014 17:43:25 GMT
why not run the N136 from Oxford Circus to Elephant via the 148 from Victoria then over the new route to Peckham then down to Chislehurst. Or run it via the 12/453 routeing to Elephant then extend the 36 at nights to Lewisham to maintain the Victoria - Lewisham link.
A N436 would create confusion as at Victoria the 436 will go to Paddington whereas the N436 will go to Oxo.
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