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Post by Late Again on May 13, 2014 19:40:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 19:48:48 GMT
I never realised just how low frequent this service is. I wonder just how well this service is used? Sod missing this bus and having to wait another 90mins!! |
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Post by jay38a on May 13, 2014 20:12:54 GMT
I would quite like to see how they plan to do this, cause theres no place to turn a bus in Havering Village.
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Post by snoggle on May 13, 2014 21:27:44 GMT
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Post by ServerKing on May 13, 2014 21:36:30 GMT
I am sure Mr Andrew Rossindel, the local MP, will march on City Hall with his Union Jack wearing Bulldog in tow to demand Boris keeps the bus. This, of course, is how the route was put in place in the first instance despite there being NO business case whatsoever for the route to exist. Still it is lovely cuddly Boris and his greatest enemy in the whole world, George Osborne, who have created the financial mess which means TfL have to start taking the axe to marginal routes across London. I can't wait for them to start on Bexley and Bromley plus axing the 347 in Havering.   BoJo found the money to buy 600 hybrid 'freebuses' that no one wanted, so I'm sure he could find something in the kitty to keep the 375 going... though 90 minutes wait between buses is disgusting, no matter what part of London it's in  |
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Post by sid on May 13, 2014 22:12:14 GMT
I am sure Mr Andrew Rossindel, the local MP, will march on City Hall with his Union Jack wearing Bulldog in tow to demand Boris keeps the bus. This, of course, is how the route was put in place in the first instance despite there being NO business case whatsoever for the route to exist. Still it is lovely cuddly Boris and his greatest enemy in the whole world, George Osborne, who have created the financial mess which means TfL have to start taking the axe to marginal routes across London. I can't wait for them to start on Bexley and Bromley plus axing the 347 in Havering. BoJo found the money to buy 600 hybrid 'freebuses' that no one wanted, so I'm sure he could find something in the kitty to keep the 375 going... though 90 minutes wait between buses is disgusting, no matter what part of London it's in Who says nobody wanted them? And surely a bus every 90 minutes is better than no bus at all? Have you seen the territory this route serves? |
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Post by romfordbuses on May 13, 2014 22:18:16 GMT
Whack it up to Debden to give it some use and create a new link.
Oh, That would be sensible...
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Post by snoggle on May 13, 2014 23:05:22 GMT
Whack it up to Debden to give it some use and create a new link. Oh, That would be sensible... If we look at the history books over the last 20 years or so we will see that many operators have tried to make a go of buses into Romford via Passingford Bridge from Ongar, Epping, Theydon Bois, Abridge, Chigwell etc. All have ultimately failed and Essex County Council have clearly concluded, even in financially easier times, that it was not worth trying to keep a service going. Go Ahead are obviously trying again with the 575 but I'm amazed it's lasted this far. Given the 575 does run over the 375 route I think there is a genuine question about why any public money should be spent on the 375 given a commercial service exists - it may not be very frequent but hey the 375 is a rural route at its extremity. While I am generally supportive of socially necessary services one has to question whether we *really* need to be supporting a bus used by 4 school children or the odd person popping to the pub. The ultimate point here is that the route should not exist - it is entirely a political bus route to support a Conservative voting area. I know the route does NOT meet TfL's business case rules and therefore it should be scrapped so the money is spent on more worthwhile services. I assume the proposed change is linked to the new contract term starting in July 2014. I deliberately went for a ride on the Arriva 500 not long before they pulled it off the road and it was reasonably well loaded out of Romford but completely running into Romford - the buses passed each other not far from Passingford Bridge. I know the issue that killed the 500 was TfL's insistence on more environmentally friendly buses but I am amazed that Arriva were unable to find some vehicles to keep the route going given it clearly had some level of patronage (although my tiny sample can't be seen as representative). |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2014 9:43:41 GMT
So this is the infamous route that was introduced for political reasons!
It'll be a shame to see another bit of red crossing the border be expundged. Might it lead to extra journies on the 575?
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 8:56:00 GMT
Whack it up to Debden to give it some use and create a new link. Oh, That would be sensible... If we look at the history books over the last 20 years or so we will see that many operators have tried to make a go of buses into Romford via Passingford Bridge from Ongar, Epping, Theydon Bois, Abridge, Chigwell etc. All have ultimately failed and Essex County Council have clearly concluded, even in financially easier times, that it was not worth trying to keep a service going. Go Ahead are obviously trying again with the 575 but I'm amazed it's lasted this far. Given the 575 does run over the 375 route I think there is a genuine question about why any public money should be spent on the 375 given a commercial service exists - it may not be very frequent but hey the 375 is a rural route at its extremity. While I am generally supportive of socially necessary services one has to question whether we *really* need to be supporting a bus used by 4 school children or the odd person popping to the pub. The ultimate point here is that the route should not exist - it is entirely a political bus route to support a Conservative voting area. I know the route does NOT meet TfL's business case rules and therefore it should be scrapped so the money is spent on more worthwhile services. I assume the proposed change is linked to the new contract term starting in July 2014. I deliberately went for a ride on the Arriva 500 not long before they pulled it off the road and it was reasonably well loaded out of Romford but completely running into Romford - the buses passed each other not far from Passingford Bridge. I know the issue that killed the 500 was TfL's insistence on more environmentally friendly buses but I am amazed that Arriva were unable to find some vehicles to keep the route going given it clearly had some level of patronage (although my tiny sample can't be seen as representative). TfL are content to rake in money from non residents of London in Epping , Amersham , Chesham, Watford , but when it comes to bus services outside of the London boundary , its a very different story. |
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Post by titan1mike on May 15, 2014 9:39:44 GMT
I really don't see what the saving will be here. Its one bus to serve Havering-atte-bower which is in greater London and turns round at Passingford Bridge. Already the bus gets about 25-30min stand at romford whenever I see them so what will the saving be?
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Post by snoggle on May 15, 2014 10:02:22 GMT
I really don't see what the saving will be here. Its one bus to serve Havering-atte-bower which is in greater London and turns round at Passingford Bridge. Already the bus gets about 25-30min stand at romford whenever I see them so what will the saving be? I wonder if there is a plan to shorten the route so that the round trip time (RTT) would be low enough to allow an hourly service? Looking at a stop specific timetable panel for the route it would save 9 minutes by turning at Havering atte Bower meaning a RTT of 60 mins would be readily achieveable (20 mins + 20 mins + 20 mins total stand time). At the moment it is just too long to allow an hourly service so it drops back to 90 mins headway. The other aspect might be extending it on to Queens Hospital but keeping it at every 90 mins. Without seeing the consultation we can't be certain what the plan is. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2014 3:54:36 GMT
Though that sounds plausible in reality there are now enough precedents for non-clockface timetabling, especially towards the extremes of the network. 146, 359, R5/10, R8, eg, not to mention all the non London routes which run what they can when they can. From www.londonbusroutes.net/times/359.htm a round trip is, atm, 56mins, the bus then stands for 34 mins; 25 at Romford and 9 at Passingford. A 75min service would be a literal and metaphorical compromise. I think on a broader note, this is exactly the kind of problem you get because London has a different system to the former country area. If only those routes could be brought back into just one system which in turn could co-ordinate with TfL, instead of it being an unregulated market and free-for-all, some cohesion could exist on a level playing field! If the area could only sustain one bus an hour on one route it could be designed to be as useful yet as practical as possible. Instead of falling between situations and failing both. Ridley was wrong, fact. His aspirations were proved untennable, and his assumptions flawed. Yet *still*, nobody is prepared to say so, and even when pressed the answer is 'that was so long ago cant we just accept it and move on?', as though its some kind of irreversible truth set in stone that must be accomodated. Like a religion. As London grows and its house prices grow too, the surrounding area is going to become pushed aswell. They need the kind of unity and integration especially in things like transport that they havent had since the 70s. |
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Post by snoggle on May 16, 2014 8:56:32 GMT
Though that sounds plausible in reality there are now enough precedents for non-clockface timetabling, especially towards the extremes of the network. 146, 359, R5/10, R8, eg, not to mention all the non London routes which run what they can when they can. From www.londonbusroutes.net/times/359.htm a round trip is, atm, 56mins, the bus then stands for 34 mins; 25 at Romford and 9 at Passingford. A 75min service would be a literal and metaphorical compromise. I think on a broader note, this is exactly the kind of problem you get because London has a different system to the former country area. If only those routes could be brought back into just one system which in turn could co-ordinate with TfL, instead of it being an unregulated market and free-for-all, some cohesion could exist on a level playing field! If the area could only sustain one bus an hour on one route it could be designed to be as useful yet as practical as possible. Instead of falling between situations and failing both. Ridley was wrong, fact. His aspirations were proved untennable, and his assumptions flawed. Yet *still*, nobody is prepared to say so, and even when pressed the answer is 'that was so long ago cant we just accept it and move on?', as though its some kind of irreversible truth set in stone that must be accomodated. Like a religion. As London grows and its house prices grow too, the surrounding area is going to become pushed as well. They need the kind of unity and integration especially in things like transport that they havent had since the 70s. I take your point about non standard headways. I was merely musing about the 375. On your last point I think the answer is simply "money". There are far too many vested interests with a lot of money who would lose out if deregulation is reversed. People aren't bothered about buses in the same way they are about the NHS and even that's been sold out without any great hoo-hah. The public will get cross when all the privatised bits of the NHS start making mistakes and killing people but we're not there yet. If even Alex Salmond in Scotland won't unravel deregulation then no politician in England is going to do it. Mr Salmond's party, of course, receives a not insubstantial amount of money from a certain part owner of Stagecoach. Two of the big bus groups are also of Scottish origin. He's not going to upset those big businesses. I'm not passing judgement here just saying how it is. The other problem is local authority funding - even if Essex County Council wanted to make the 375 more "sensible" by running to Ongar or Epping it hasn't got the discretionary cash to do it (not has TfL). In terms of your "expanding London" point I can't see politicians in authorities bordering London being keen on a TfL takeover of their services. If London does expand across the GL boundary they will want to reap the benefit in terms of extra council tax income and local spend and not cede it to London. We've already seen the "stop evil TfL" mindset with the proposal for TfL to take over part of the South Eastern rail franchise and Kent politicians stopped that in its tracks. |
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Post by sid on May 16, 2014 9:48:52 GMT
Though that sounds plausible in reality there are now enough precedents for non-clockface timetabling, especially towards the extremes of the network. 146, 359, R5/10, R8, eg, not to mention all the non London routes which run what they can when they can. From www.londonbusroutes.net/times/359.htm a round trip is, atm, 56mins, the bus then stands for 34 mins; 25 at Romford and 9 at Passingford. A 75min service would be a literal and metaphorical compromise. I think on a broader note, this is exactly the kind of problem you get because London has a different system to the former country area. If only those routes could be brought back into just one system which in turn could co-ordinate with TfL, instead of it being an unregulated market and free-for-all, some cohesion could exist on a level playing field! If the area could only sustain one bus an hour on one route it could be designed to be as useful yet as practical as possible. Instead of falling between situations and failing both. Ridley was wrong, fact. His aspirations were proved untennable, and his assumptions flawed. Yet *still*, nobody is prepared to say so, and even when pressed the answer is 'that was so long ago cant we just accept it and move on?', as though its some kind of irreversible truth set in stone that must be accomodated. Like a religion. As London grows and its house prices grow too, the surrounding area is going to become pushed as well. They need the kind of unity and integration especially in things like transport that they havent had since the 70s. I take your point about non standard headways. I was merely musing about the 375. On your last point I think the answer is simply "money". There are far too many vested interests with a lot of money who would lose out if deregulation is reversed. People aren't bothered about buses in the same way they are about the NHS and even that's been sold out without any great hoo-hah. The public will get cross when all the privatised bits of the NHS start making mistakes and killing people but we're not there yet. If even Alex Salmond in Scotland won't unravel deregulation then no politician in England is going to do it. Mr Salmond's party, of course, receives a not insubstantial amount of money from a certain part owner of Stagecoach. Two of the big bus groups are also of Scottish origin. He's not going to upset those big businesses. I'm not passing judgement here just saying how it is. The other problem is local authority funding - even if Essex County Council wanted to make the 375 more "sensible" by running to Ongar or Epping it hasn't got the discretionary cash to do it (not has TfL). In terms of your "expanding London" point I can't see politicians in authorities bordering London being keen on a TfL takeover of their services. If London does expand across the GL boundary they will want to reap the benefit in terms of extra council tax income and local spend and not cede it to London. We've already seen the "stop evil TfL" mindset with the proposal for TfL to take over part of the South Eastern rail franchise and Kent politicians stopped that in its tracks. A lot of people have been brainwashed into thinking privatisation = bad, that is not necessarily the case. Anyway that's not debate for this forum. Getting back to the 375 it would seem logical to withdraw it beyond Havering Atte Bower, if somewhere can be found to turn the bus around, and increase the service to hourly although obviously an hourly service right through to Debden would be better. |
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