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Post by snoggle on Aug 9, 2014 10:20:52 GMT
Prompted by a comment by Nathan in the Abellio London thread I though I'd ask if the "20-30 minute gap" syndrome occurs all over London. I certainly see it on local services in NE London at school times. Routes seem to collapse under the strain of extra congestion and higher loadings / longer dwell times at stops. Is it just me or does it happen across London?
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Post by Nathan on Aug 9, 2014 11:41:13 GMT
I'm glad I inspired you a little to make this thread  I think the main reason for gaps in service is due to curtailments. As I mentioned in another thread about the 172, one of the reasons for the gaps is because there's always a curtailment to New Cross Gate. Unfortunately for me, I board the bus from the section between New Cross and Brockley Cross, so I never know about these turns unless I check LVF. Although sometimes a route is just generally unreliable. I once had to wait for a 172 at Brockley Station for almost an hour! LVF told me there were two buses coming. One about 5 mins behind the other. The first bus never came, and the time for second one just kept getting pushed back (I hate it when that happens). Similar things like this have happened to me on the 171, 177 (probably the worst), 321 and other routes in the SE area. |
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Post by M1104 on Aug 9, 2014 12:20:09 GMT
I sometimes see a similar gap at times with the 152 from the evenings where the service is every 20 minutes. However if there is a bus missing/curtailment/late meal relief that 20 minute gap becomes 40 minutes from the Pollards Hill or New Malden end (where I have seen buses going along Western Road showing Raynes Park or Eastfield).
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Aug 9, 2014 12:45:47 GMT
The 368 seems to have this in a daily basis, has the be the worst operated route in East London. Occasionally I've had it on the 387 and 62. But th longest gap I've had proportionate to frequency was 20mins at Romford road for a 25.
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Post by fg49 on Aug 9, 2014 12:59:46 GMT
170 has (not sure if it has been ironed out yet) this weekdays towards Roehampton between 1650 and 1730, there is normally a massive gap with 3 due after 15-25 minutes.
I used to be late to football because of this, and the first or second bus was generally curtailed to Putney Heath. Many times I've had to take a 37 or 39.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 13:05:11 GMT
The 368 seems to have this in a daily basis, has the be the worst operated route in East London. Occasionally I've had it on the 387 and 62. But th longest gap I've had proportionate to frequency was 20mins at Romford road for a 25. Had a 15 min wait at Trafalgar Sq for a 15 the other day, the bus then creep along the road taking about 70 or so mins to get to Poplar. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 15:07:56 GMT
A lot of the time I wait for route 474 at Canning Town in the weekday evening, I sometimes had to wait for up to 30~40 minutes... when they're meant to be every 12~15 minutes.
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Post by DT 11 on Aug 9, 2014 15:16:51 GMT
The 160... I say no more
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Post by Mokujin on Aug 9, 2014 16:29:48 GMT
Mostly there's always gaps on 188, not all the time there's a gap on the 47 but sometimes there can be. 199 rarely has any gaps mainly because it's a short route.
Currently there's no 188 (towards Russell Square) due at the Elephant & Castle / New Kent Road bus stop for another 17 minutes (for a route which runs every 8 minutes!) and also the buses which are due then are currently running together at the moment.
2-3 buses bunching on 188 happens daily anyway...
EDIT - 9450 just ran light from Surrey Quays to Bermondsey and is now starting from there to terminate at Elephant.
I assume the driver must've told everyone to get off the bus and get on one of the buses currently bunching.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 9, 2014 21:55:12 GMT
The only route I have this problem with in Brixton is the 37 - for some reason, a 27 minute gap usually appears in the evening around 18:30 to 19:30.
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Post by eggmiester on Aug 9, 2014 23:24:46 GMT
One thing I will say about this guys is that no service controller will in their right mind purposefully create such a large gap in the service, its by far unprofessional!!
Unfortunately however the general public only see the smaller picture, the gap itself! Controllers and on occasions drivers will see the bigger picture and there are many, many reasons why such a large gap in service would be experienced.
As many of you have stated a popular reason is due to a curtailment and poor regulation of the service around that. But gaps in servive can occur at any time for any number of reasons, such as:
Unexpected events like emergency road works or a road closure.
Vehicle breakdowns
Passenger action or fare disputes delaying buses
Schedule deficiencies
Driving time/drivers hours meaning buses need to be curtailed or pulled (does happen)
Vehicle involved in an incident or RTC
Driver actions or Driver errors
Staff shortage
Controller errors
Running time changes (particularly in evenings and off peak)
Controllers extending headways due to delays or any of the factors listed above..
These are just a few.....
The thing is controllers will endeavour to provide an even service throughout the route even if this means a gap occurs at some point on a particular section of route. Gaps are not intentional!! A controllers job is to earn the company money and prevent the company losing money by dealing and adjusting their resources as necessary to get the best out of the resources they have at any given time no matter what situations or events that may be occurring that will be preventing or trying to prevent them from doing so.
Controlling one route is a challenging job, let alone the fact that each service controller could be controlling anything from 2 to 5 routes at a time, at the most, late turn or night controllers could have anything from 12 to 20 routes each to manage!! Its a tough task no matter what time of day it is.
There like I said, Gaps will occur, but they are not intentional or done on purpose! There will be a reason why a gap in service has occurred and as I have said controllers will try and prevent them from happening! But if I am honest, they will continue to happen as no day is ever the same.
If there is a regular pattern however then there may be a need to review the resources or make some adjustments to the route affected, like timing adjustments or resource adjustments. These can take time to arrange due to all the politics involved in the London bus industry.
Eggmiester
Controller @ New Cross.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 10, 2014 0:28:20 GMT
One thing I will say about this guys is that no service controller will in their right mind purposefully create such a large gap in the service, its by far unprofessional!! Unfortunately however the general public only see the smaller picture, the gap itself! Controllers and on occasions drivers will see the bigger picture and there are many, many reasons why such a large gap in service would be experienced. As many of you have stated a popular reason is due to a curtailment and poor regulation of the service around that. But gaps in servive can occur at any time for any number of reasons, such as: Unexpected events like emergency road works or a road closure. Vehicle breakdowns Passenger action or fare disputes delaying buses Schedule deficiencies Driving time/drivers hours meaning buses need to be curtailed or pulled (does happen) Vehicle involved in an incident or RTC Driver actions or Driver errors Staff shortage Controller errors Running time changes (particularly in evenings and off peak) Controllers extending headways due to delays or any of the factors listed above.. These are just a few..... The thing is controllers will endeavour to provide an even service throughout the route even if this means a gap occurs at some point on a particular section of route. Gaps are not intentional!! A controllers job is to earn the company money and prevent the company losing money by dealing and adjusting their resources as necessary to get the best out of the resources they have at any given time no matter what situations or events that may be occurring that will be preventing or trying to prevent them from doing so. Controlling one route is a challenging job, let alone the fact that each service controller could be controlling anything from 2 to 5 routes at a time, at the most, late turn or night controllers could have anything from 12 to 20 routes each to manage!! Its a tough task no matter what time of day it is. There like I said, Gaps will occur, but they are not intentional or done on purpose! There will be a reason why a gap in service has occurred and as I have said controllers will try and prevent them from happening! But if I am honest, they will continue to happen as no day is ever the same. If there is a regular pattern however then there may be a need to review the resources or make some adjustments to the route affected, like timing adjustments or resource adjustments. These can take time to arrange due to all the politics involved in the London bus industry. Eggmiester Controller @ New Cross. That's fair enough, I know it's not easy controlling a route especially when a million and one things can go wrong without warning. |
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Post by Nathan on Aug 10, 2014 1:03:07 GMT
One thing I will say about this guys is that no service controller will in their right mind purposefully create such a large gap in the service, its by far unprofessional!! Unfortunately however the general public only see the smaller picture, the gap itself! Controllers and on occasions drivers will see the bigger picture and there are many, many reasons why such a large gap in service would be experienced. As many of you have stated a popular reason is due to a curtailment and poor regulation of the service around that. But gaps in servive can occur at any time for any number of reasons, such as: Unexpected events like emergency road works or a road closure. Vehicle breakdowns Passenger action or fare disputes delaying buses Schedule deficiencies Driving time/drivers hours meaning buses need to be curtailed or pulled (does happen) Vehicle involved in an incident or RTC Driver actions or Driver errors Staff shortage Controller errors Running time changes (particularly in evenings and off peak) Controllers extending headways due to delays or any of the factors listed above.. These are just a few..... The thing is controllers will endeavour to provide an even service throughout the route even if this means a gap occurs at some point on a particular section of route. Gaps are not intentional!! A controllers job is to earn the company money and prevent the company losing money by dealing and adjusting their resources as necessary to get the best out of the resources they have at any given time no matter what situations or events that may be occurring that will be preventing or trying to prevent them from doing so. Controlling one route is a challenging job, let alone the fact that each service controller could be controlling anything from 2 to 5 routes at a time, at the most, late turn or night controllers could have anything from 12 to 20 routes each to manage!! Its a tough task no matter what time of day it is. There like I said, Gaps will occur, but they are not intentional or done on purpose! There will be a reason why a gap in service has occurred and as I have said controllers will try and prevent them from happening! But if I am honest, they will continue to happen as no day is ever the same. If there is a regular pattern however then there may be a need to review the resources or make some adjustments to the route affected, like timing adjustments or resource adjustments. These can take time to arrange due to all the politics involved in the London bus industry. Eggmiester Controller @ New Cross. Define "Schedule deficiencies". |
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Post by Swadbus on Aug 10, 2014 10:38:59 GMT
"Schedule deficiencies":
Insufficient/excess running running time end to end,
Incorrect intermediate timings (early in some places, late in others, but not balanced across various timing points on route),
Insufficient recovery (aka stand) time to allow for a moderate late run,
Insufficient light running time, (bus arrives at start of route late)
Meal reliefs that are too short causing drivers to take buses over late during a delay due to legal/negotiated minimum rest period,
Insufficient time between end of previous duty and beginning of next duty during a late run, meaning driver doesn't get legal/negotiated minimum rest period,
Ferry vehicles unavailable due to late running / being utilised elsewhere,
Lots of crew changes/finishing duties consecutively in the schedule, meaning a controller unwilling to push buses through to end of the route to protect later services,
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Post by snoggle on Aug 10, 2014 12:17:53 GMT
"Schedule deficiencies": Insufficient/excess running running time end to end, Incorrect intermediate timings (early in some places, late in others, but not balanced across various timing points on route), Insufficient recovery (aka stand) time to allow for a moderate late run, Insufficient light running time, (bus arrives at start of route late) Meal reliefs that are too short causing drivers to take buses over late during a delay due to legal/negotiated minimum rest period, Insufficient time between end of previous duty and beginning of next duty during a late run, meaning driver doesn't get legal/negotiated minimum rest period, Ferry vehicles unavailable due to late running / being utilised elsewhere, Lots of crew changes/finishing duties consecutively in the schedule, meaning a controller unwilling to push buses through to end of the route to protect later services, When I started the thread I was more interested in whether people were aware of regular deficiencies in service performance at particular times. This is more likely related to the first 4 items on the above list. I know all sorts of nonsense can arise due to unexpected events and there's not a lot, other than managing round it, that can be done. @eggmeister gave a very good list and most of that is the unexpected stuff which life throws at bus drivers and controllers. I'm more concerned about the same thing happening repeatedly and nothing seemingly being done about other than managing the consequences. I can guarantee that the 123 and W11 will see horrible gaps in the service every single rush hour at the same times. Of course these are the worst problems to fix because TfL really don't want to add peak time marginal resource because it's very costly. Nonetheless it must be immensely frustrating to passengers, drivers and controllers to see the same problems arise every day with all the delays that are incurred and effort expended to deal with the consequences every day. |
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