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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2014 7:11:16 GMT
So, I was reading about Tom and Jerry on Wikipedia and I never realised how controversial it is. For example, black stereotypes are common and smoking is glamourised. Now when I think about it it is true but I've never noticed this before. Interestingly, there are also a couple of 'unique' episodes. In 'His Mouse Friday' cannibalism is apparently depicted though I don't understand how. In 'Blue Cat Blues', suicide is depicted in the end. This episode also has Jerry narrating. The interesting thing is, according to Wikipedia, very few airings are known, but I have seen the episode before, albeit without the audio so you can't tell suicide is depicted. Many episodes have now been edited so no racism is depicted but uncut versions are still shown in the UK at times Have you noticed these issues with Tom and Jerry? Do you not watch it because of this? There are some people who do not watch Tom and Jerry purely because of these issues. His Mouse Friday: m.youtube.com/watch?v=ALrC9kf-BYom.youtube.com/watch?v=jSFsGDJByP4Blue Cat Blues: m.youtube.com/watch?v=SmXvxUGpREA |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 26, 2014 9:57:28 GMT
So, I was reading about Tom and Jerry on Wikipedia and I never realised how controversial it is. For example, black stereotypes are common and smoking is glamourised. Now when I think about it it is true but I've never noticed this before. Interestingly, there are also a couple of 'unique' episodes. In 'His Mouse Friday' cannibalism is apparently depicted though I don't understand how. In 'Blue Cat Blues', suicide is depicted in the end. This episode also has Jerry narrating. The interesting thing is, according to Wikipedia, very few airings are known, but I have seen the episode before, albeit without the audio so you can't tell suicide is depicted. Many episodes have now been edited so no racism is depicted but uncut versions are still shown in the UK at times Have you noticed these issues with Tom and Jerry? Do you not watch it because of this? There are some people who do not watch Tom and Jerry purely because of these issues. His Mouse Friday: m.youtube.com/watch?v=ALrC9kf-BYom.youtube.com/watch?v=jSFsGDJByP4Blue Cat Blues: m.youtube.com/watch?v=SmXvxUGpREAI think people go too far and over read some of these type of thing - for example, for anyone who remembers Pokemon, there was a particular one called Kadabra and the creators of Pokemon and Uri Geller ended up in a legal fight because apparently, Kadabra was based on him. Needless to say, the makers of Pokemon currently don't include Kadabra in new trading card sets and I don't think it appears in newer episodes either however, Kadabra does still appear in the newer computer games. However, this one I've got sympathy for as to why they changed it. Staying with Pokemon, there was also the one regarding the Pokemon Jynx looking similar to a 'golliwog'. For those that don't know what a 'golliwog' is, it's a black character from 19th century children's books depicted as a doll and is regarded as being very insulting and a racial slur towards black people. Golliwog - aberstudentmedia.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Golliwog.jpgOriginal design of Jynx - cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/thumb/1/13/124Jynx_OS_anime.png/150px-124Jynx_OS_anime.pngAmended design of Jynx - img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/125d37815624e1b1531c388b33a79b39/http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e291/spannerjams/jynx.gif |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 26, 2014 12:20:19 GMT
Most of Tom and Jerry was made decades ago and also made in the USA. It would naturally reflect the social norms that applied then and in that country. Attitudes clearly change and that's fine. Whether you rewrite history to soothe the fevered brows of a few people I am not so certain about. If we "airbrush" everything that went before because it's a bit upsetting then you end with no history and no reality. The only way you understand things properly is to know what really happened, why things were done and why things have changed. That allows new generations to gain a proper understanding of history and current and past attitudes and to reach their own conclusions about the subject matter.
Sometimes the mistakes of the past have to remain in place to allow people to learn even if there is a risk that new generations have some people who like the horrors of the past. Nazi-ism is one such example - Germany fights hard to control it but it cannot, in a free society, stop a tiny minority of people admiring or following that particular brand of politics. You have the same in many countries but the alternative is to ban free speech and institute brain washing and that, IMO, is worse than the problem you're trying to fix.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2014 22:28:35 GMT
I've studied discrimination in the USA and I know how bad the situation used to be, but nothing can justify depicting suicide and cannibalism, can it?
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Post by snoggle on Oct 26, 2014 22:53:44 GMT
I've studied discrimination in the USA and I know how bad the situation used to be, but nothing can justify depicting suicide and cannibalism, can it? Can I just say "it is a cartoon"?! Last time I looked you couldn't repeatedly bash people on the head and have them recover within seconds or have budgies fly while carrying a bowling ball or have a cat ride a model railway round a room [1]. All sorts of things are "depicted" in cartoons but children just view them as fun. It is only adults who see multiple meanings in things and then wet themselves worrying about something which isn't "damaging" children. Some of the nonsense being spouted on things like this is unreal. [1] one of my favourite T&J cartoons where the bowling ball is dropped creating a hole in the floor and Tom disappears down the hole while riding the train just missing Jerry who was tied to the model railway tracks. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2014 22:57:55 GMT
I've studied discrimination in the USA and I know how bad the situation used to be, but nothing can justify depicting suicide and cannibalism, can it? Can I just say "it is a cartoon"?! Last time I looked you couldn't repeatedly bash people on the head and have them recover within seconds or have budgies fly while carrying a bowling ball or have a cat ride a model railway round a room [1]. All sorts of things are "depicted" in cartoons but children just view them as fun. It is only adults who see multiple meanings in things and then wet themselves worrying about something which isn't "damaging" children. Some of the nonsense being spouted on things like this is unreal. [1] one of my favourite T&J cartoons where the bowling ball is dropped creating a hole in the floor and Tom disappears down the hole while riding the train just missing Jerry who was tied to the model railway tracks. I'm not that fussed over these things usually and I do enjoy Tam and Jerry but even if kids don't understand and it's just a cartoon, suicide still seems... Wrong. |
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Post by Green Kitten on Oct 27, 2014 15:18:31 GMT
As a MASSIVE fan of cartoons of that era (Tom & Jerry, Looney Tunes, Tex Avery cartoons etc etc) I'm excited that there's discussion about these brilliant films!
First thing you should understand is that these cartoons were shown in theaters in between movies, and were not specifically targeted for children. This is why many of the cartoons have some more mature themes. Second thing is what snoggle touched on, views were different in the 30s and 40s in which most of these cartoons were made, attitudes and stereotypes towards certain minorities were a lot less accepting and these cartoons can provide an insight into the history of attitudes, opinions and prejudices on others. Just watch many of the wartime Looney Tunes cartoons (Russian Rhapsody, Tokio Jokio, Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips, Daffy the Commando etc etc). Many characters smoke in cartoons - it was actually quite normal for most people to smoke in that era. It wasn't until 1962 that reports on smoking and how it affects one's health came up!
Many cartoons, especially ones from the MGM studio (which includes Tom & Jerry), depicted a lot of stereotypes, especially of African-Americans. A lot of explosions in Tom & Jerry (and other MGM) cartoons (all of which are now edited on TV) ended up with the characters in blackface. Looney Tunes has the very famous 'Censored 11' - eleven cartoons that have been banned from TV and video releases since 1968 with cartoons heavily featuring offensive African-American stereotypes. Many studios, most notably in Tom & Jerry... well, do you remember the woman where you can never see her face? That's the mammy stereotype - African-American ladies serving as maids to households. The original voice of the character's been re-dubbed as people could find the original dialect offensive...
What do I think of the cartoons? I don't think these blackface gags are necessary - they're not funny and add nothing to the gag 99% of the time. Characters ending up in blackface after mud splashes on them? Not funny, kind of vicious. But they were added to the cartoons, so they're there.
As for the Censored 11, forgive me for saying that there are a few cartoons in there that I really do enjoy. Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarves, Tin Pan Alley Cats and Goldilocks and the Jivin' Bears are cartoons that I really enjoy. Yes, they are racist, but I also appreciate the great music and animation, which these cartoons have tons of. They are cartoons of a different time and are a part of the history of film, including attitudes and prejudices towards others, and as an adult fan of these cartoons, I appreciate that. I have a collection of uncensored Looney Tunes shorts. Censoring them for adult animation fans would be the same as saying these prejudices never existed.
I saw His Mouse Friday and Blue Cat Blues many times as a kid, the former completely uncensored. To me it was just a fun cartoon... the second was a bit depressing but entertaining. Some people are driven to suicide. Sad, but it just is. Blue Cat Blues definitely is one of the better cartoons of that period of T&J... by the mid 50s, T&J cartoons become slightly more dull and the artwork is a bit more minimalist, with less detailed animation. This is also quite noticeable in Warner Bros. Looney Tunes shorts. I personally prefer 40s T&J and Looney Tunes shorts.
Funnily enough... as a child, there was one T&J cartoon that really intrigued me - The Milky Waif. It bugged me that Jerry and Nibbles run into a room, then abruptly, Tom runs into a frying pan that Jerry holds. I then found out that a massive chunk of the cartoon was cut out - Jerry and Nibbles dressed up as African-American maids, of course in blackface, impersonating the lady whose face can never be seen... I wondered if any cartoons were edited that way, and sure enough, there were loads of moments that I never saw!
Snoggle - The cartoon you mentioned is Kitty Foiled, and in my opinion, one of the greatest Tom and Jerry cartoons ever made. That animation of lunatic-looking Tom on the train, amazing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 9:22:25 GMT
As a MASSIVE fan of cartoons of that era (Tom & Jerry, Looney Tunes, Tex Avery cartoons etc etc) I'm excited that there's discussion about these brilliant films! First thing you should understand is that these cartoons were shown in theaters in between movies, and were not specifically targeted for children. This is why many of the cartoons have some more mature themes. Second thing is what snoggle touched on, views were different in the 30s and 40s in which most of these cartoons were made, attitudes and stereotypes towards certain minorities were a lot less accepting and these cartoons can provide an insight into the history of attitudes, opinions and prejudices on others. Just watch many of the wartime Looney Tunes cartoons ( Russian Rhapsody, Tokio Jokio, Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips, Daffy the Commando etc etc). Many characters smoke in cartoons - it was actually quite normal for most people to smoke in that era. It wasn't until 1962 that reports on smoking and how it affects one's health came up! Many cartoons, especially ones from the MGM studio (which includes Tom & Jerry), depicted a lot of stereotypes, especially of African-Americans. A lot of explosions in Tom & Jerry (and other MGM) cartoons (all of which are now edited on TV) ended up with the characters in blackface. Looney Tunes has the very famous 'Censored 11' - eleven cartoons that have been banned from TV and video releases since 1968 with cartoons heavily featuring offensive African-American stereotypes. Many studios, most notably in Tom & Jerry... well, do you remember the woman where you can never see her face? That's the mammy stereotype - African-American ladies serving as maids to households. The original voice of the character's been re-dubbed as people could find the original dialect offensive... What do I think of the cartoons? I don't think these blackface gags are necessary - they're not funny and add nothing to the gag 99% of the time. Characters ending up in blackface after mud splashes on them? Not funny, kind of vicious. But they were added to the cartoons, so they're there. As for the Censored 11, forgive me for saying that there are a few cartoons in there that I really do enjoy. Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarves, Tin Pan Alley Cats and Goldilocks and the Jivin' Bears are cartoons that I really enjoy. Yes, they are racist, but I also appreciate the great music and animation, which these cartoons have tons of. They are cartoons of a different time and are a part of the history of film, including attitudes and prejudices towards others, and as an adult fan of these cartoons, I appreciate that. I have a collection of uncensored Looney Tunes shorts. Censoring them for adult animation fans would be the same as saying these prejudices never existed. I saw His Mouse Friday and Blue Cat Blues many times as a kid, the former completely uncensored. To me it was just a fun cartoon... the second was a bit depressing but entertaining. Some people are driven to suicide. Sad, but it just is. Blue Cat Blues definitely is one of the better cartoons of that period of T&J... by the mid 50s, T&J cartoons become slightly more dull and the artwork is a bit more minimalist, with less detailed animation. This is also quite noticeable in Warner Bros. Looney Tunes shorts. I personally prefer 40s T&J and Looney Tunes shorts. Funnily enough... as a child, there was one T&J cartoon that really intrigued me - The Milky Waif. It bugged me that Jerry and Nibbles run into a room, then abruptly, Tom runs into a frying pan that Jerry holds. I then found out that a massive chunk of the cartoon was cut out - Jerry and Nibbles dressed up as African-American maids, of course in blackface, impersonating the lady whose face can never be seen... I wondered if any cartoons were edited that way, and sure enough, there were loads of moments that I never saw! Snoggle - The cartoon you mentioned is Kitty Foiled, and in my opinion, one of the greatest Tom and Jerry cartoons ever made. That animation of lunatic-looking Tom on the train, amazing. I'd actually never heard of the censored eleven before you mentioned it just now, so I decided to look it up and watch a few episodes. I was expecting them to be very racist but they still truly shocked me. Yes, thay have great animation and music but I could not fully enjoy them because of the racism. The worst one is probably 'Jungle Jitters' though I haven't seen all of them yet. 'Hittin the Trail for Hallelujah Land' doesn't really require a ban IMO, it doesn't have a very big racism element, though that last 'death' may be found disturbing by some (yes, yes, I know it's just a cartoon). If you decide to watch them viewer discretion is advised, I warn you. Also, I see from the Wikipedia page that Warner Bros. Limited plan to release restored versions of the censored eleven pretty soon. |
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Post by Green Kitten on Oct 28, 2014 12:22:25 GMT
I also don't think 'Hittin' the Trail' should be part of the censored 11 - to be honest the characters in animation in the early 30s all look the same... Jungle Jitters is pretty lame, not just because of the cannibals bit because it's exteremly bizarre and stupid. I think the worst ones are 'Sunday Go To Meetin' Time' - complete with a father 'polishing' his children with black shoe polish  (just terrible) and 'Angel Puss'... A cartoon with a potentially good idea but executed terribly. The 'Little Black Sambo' stereotype really makes it even worse... :/ One that was missed in the aforementioned 11 is 'Goin' To Heaven on a Mule'. |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 28, 2014 12:47:39 GMT
As a MASSIVE fan of cartoons of that era (Tom & Jerry, Looney Tunes, Tex Avery cartoons etc etc) I'm excited that there's discussion about these brilliant films! Aha - this explains your avatars on the group! A cartoon fan. |
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Post by John tuthill on Oct 28, 2014 14:55:33 GMT
As a MASSIVE fan of cartoons of that era (Tom & Jerry, Looney Tunes, Tex Avery cartoons etc etc) I'm excited that there's discussion about these brilliant films! First thing you should understand is that these cartoons were shown in theaters in between movies, and were not specifically targeted for children. This is why many of the cartoons have some more mature themes. Second thing is what snoggle touched on, views were different in the 30s and 40s in which most of these cartoons were made, attitudes and stereotypes towards certain minorities were a lot less accepting and these cartoons can provide an insight into the history of attitudes, opinions and prejudices on others. Just watch many of the wartime Looney Tunes cartoons ( Russian Rhapsody, Tokio Jokio, Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips, Daffy the Commando etc etc). Many characters smoke in cartoons - it was actually quite normal for most people to smoke in that era. It wasn't until 1962 that reports on smoking and how it affects one's health came up! Many cartoons, especially ones from the MGM studio (which includes Tom & Jerry), depicted a lot of stereotypes, especially of African-Americans. A lot of explosions in Tom & Jerry (and other MGM) cartoons (all of which are now edited on TV) ended up with the characters in blackface. Looney Tunes has the very famous 'Censored 11' - eleven cartoons that have been banned from TV and video releases since 1968 with cartoons heavily featuring offensive African-American stereotypes. Many studios, most notably in Tom & Jerry... well, do you remember the woman where you can never see her face? That's the mammy stereotype - African-American ladies serving as maids to households. The original voice of the character's been re-dubbed as people could find the original dialect offensive... What do I think of the cartoons? I don't think these blackface gags are necessary - they're not funny and add nothing to the gag 99% of the time. Characters ending up in blackface after mud splashes on them? Not funny, kind of vicious. But they were added to the cartoons, so they're there. As for the Censored 11, forgive me for saying that there are a few cartoons in there that I really do enjoy. Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarves, Tin Pan Alley Cats and Goldilocks and the Jivin' Bears are cartoons that I really enjoy. Yes, they are racist, but I also appreciate the great music and animation, which these cartoons have tons of. They are cartoons of a different time and are a part of the history of film, including attitudes and prejudices towards others, and as an adult fan of these cartoons, I appreciate that. I have a collection of uncensored Looney Tunes shorts. Censoring them for adult animation fans would be the same as saying these prejudices never existed. I saw His Mouse Friday and Blue Cat Blues many times as a kid, the former completely uncensored. To me it was just a fun cartoon... the second was a bit depressing but entertaining. Some people are driven to suicide. Sad, but it just is. Blue Cat Blues definitely is one of the better cartoons of that period of T&J... by the mid 50s, T&J cartoons become slightly more dull and the artwork is a bit more minimalist, with less detailed animation. This is also quite noticeable in Warner Bros. Looney Tunes shorts. I personally prefer 40s T&J and Looney Tunes shorts. Funnily enough... as a child, there was one T&J cartoon that really intrigued me - The Milky Waif. It bugged me that Jerry and Nibbles run into a room, then abruptly, Tom runs into a frying pan that Jerry holds. I then found out that a massive chunk of the cartoon was cut out - Jerry and Nibbles dressed up as African-American maids, of course in blackface, impersonating the lady whose face can never be seen... I wondered if any cartoons were edited that way, and sure enough, there were loads of moments that I never saw! Snoggle - The cartoon you mentioned is Kitty Foiled, and in my opinion, one of the greatest Tom and Jerry cartoons ever made. That animation of lunatic-looking Tom on the train, amazing. I'd actually never heard of the censored eleven before you mentioned it just now, so I decided to look it up and watch a few episodes. I was expecting them to be very racist but they still truly shocked me. Yes, thay have great animation and music but I could not fully enjoy them because of the racism. The worst one is probably 'Jungle Jitters' though I haven't seen all of them yet. 'Hittin the Trail for Hallelujah Land' doesn't really require a ban IMO, it doesn't have a very big racism element, though that last 'death' may be found disturbing by some (yes, yes, I know it's just a cartoon). If you decide to watch them viewer discretion is advised, I warn you. Also, I see from the Wikipedia page that Warner Bros. Limited plan to release restored versions of the censored eleven pretty soon. What intrigues me is nobody seems to mind, unless I've missed it, is the violence of the cartoons. Anvils on heads, ironing boards falling out of cupboards. I must admit when I watched them, and still do with my grandchildren, I never once thought of the 'racist' angle. I know we only saw the legs and feet of the maid. If one looks at feature films off the 30's & 40's Hattie McDaniel was always the housemaid in these films, Gone with the Wind being the prime example, Jack Benny had Rochester and I remember a short comedy series being shown at Saturday morning pictures of two coloured americans named 'Amos an' Andy.' |
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Post by T.R. on Oct 30, 2014 1:42:02 GMT
Pardon me for bringing this up. I only just stumbled (back) across this:  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2014 10:01:17 GMT
I'd actually never heard of the censored eleven before you mentioned it just now, so I decided to look it up and watch a few episodes. I was expecting them to be very racist but they still truly shocked me. Yes, thay have great animation and music but I could not fully enjoy them because of the racism. The worst one is probably 'Jungle Jitters' though I haven't seen all of them yet. 'Hittin the Trail for Hallelujah Land' doesn't really require a ban IMO, it doesn't have a very big racism element, though that last 'death' may be found disturbing by some (yes, yes, I know it's just a cartoon). If you decide to watch them viewer discretion is advised, I warn you. Also, I see from the Wikipedia page that Warner Bros. Limited plan to release restored versions of the censored eleven pretty soon. What intrigues me is nobody seems to mind, unless I've missed it, is the violence of the cartoons. Anvils on heads, ironing boards falling out of cupboards. I must admit when I watched them, and still do with my grandchildren, I never once thought of the 'racist' angle. I know we only saw the legs and feet of the maid. If one looks at feature films off the 30's & 40's Hattie McDaniel was always the housemaid in these films, Gone with the Wind being the prime example, Jack Benny had Rochester and I remember a short comedy series being shown at Saturday morning pictures of two coloured americans named 'Amos an' Andy.' I think it doesn't bother most people because in most cases, the character makes a very speedy recovery. Also, because the characters are animated, it's very difficult to emphathise with the pain they're 'feeling'. With emotions it's easier to emphathise which is why animated cartoons and movies can still be emotional. |
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Post by John tuthill on Oct 30, 2014 10:25:03 GMT
What intrigues me is nobody seems to mind, unless I've missed it, is the violence of the cartoons. Anvils on heads, ironing boards falling out of cupboards. I must admit when I watched them, and still do with my grandchildren, I never once thought of the 'racist' angle. I know we only saw the legs and feet of the maid. If one looks at feature films off the 30's & 40's Hattie McDaniel was always the housemaid in these films, Gone with the Wind being the prime example, Jack Benny had Rochester and I remember a short comedy series being shown at Saturday morning pictures of two coloured americans named 'Amos an' Andy.' I think it doesn't bother most people because in most cases, the character makes a very speedy recovery. Also, because the characters are animated, it's very difficult to emphathise with the pain they're 'feeling'. With emotions it's easier to emphathise which is why animated cartoons and movies can still be emotional. So true. My wife STILL cries every time she watches Bambi with my granddaughter. It makes me smile when the little one says "Grandma why are your eyes leaking?" |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2014 16:48:38 GMT
I think it doesn't bother most people because in most cases, the character makes a very speedy recovery. Also, because the characters are animated, it's very difficult to emphathise with the pain they're 'feeling'. With emotions it's easier to emphathise which is why animated cartoons and movies can still be emotional. So true. My wife STILL cries every time she watches Bambi with my granddaughter. It makes me smile when the little one says "Grandma why are your eyes leaking?" Ok, I'm not THAT emotional, but I've still come close to crying at times when watching emotional animated films. PS- Eastlondoner62 and fg49, I assume this will be the hot topic of your discussion tonight?  |
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(just terrible) and 'Angel Puss'... A cartoon with a potentially good idea but executed terribly. The 'Little Black Sambo' stereotype really makes it even worse... :/
