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Post by snoggle on Apr 25, 2019 14:00:44 GMT
There is a possibly interesting development with the GOBLIN service this coming Sunday. Someone has pointed me at realtimetrains.com which shows some supplementary journeys from Upper Holloway to Barking late morning and then the advertised passenger service is a x15 min headway for the remainder of the day. As there are only 3 class 378s this must mean there *may* be an attempt to run 3 Class 710s on Sunday in passenger service. That's the only practical way a x15 min service could be operated. Obviously it's worth just saying that timetables can and do get changed on the GOBLIN at literally hours notice so it might all vanish again by Saturday! Nonetheless a potentially interesting development. The Monday service remains half hourly so no one should get *too* excited about a massive breakthrough. Two Class 710s were out today on driver training runs but only until lunchtime. Nothing in the afternoon at all. I did ask the user group about this they said its "Unlikely" they also said that @networkrail has at short notice closed the line until 13:00 Sure. I deliberately hedged what I said as clearly it's an odd development. The NLL also seems to be closed until around midday which partly explains why you'd get trains suddenly coming into service at Upper Holloway not long afterwards. We shall have to see how the timetable for the day changes as we get closer to Sunday. If nothing happens then fair enough - the saga drags on.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 26, 2019 9:40:12 GMT
Still can't get over how bad the WMT livery is I don't like it aswell looks disgusting I kinda like it
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Post by george on Apr 26, 2019 9:42:33 GMT
I don't like it aswell looks disgusting I kinda like it yeah to be honest I don't it's bad, much better than SWR new livery.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 26, 2019 9:54:42 GMT
We can stand down from being excited about class 710s on Sunday. The timetable has completely changed on realtimetrains and is just the basic half hourly service but starting at lunchtime because of the short notice line closure imposed by Network Rail on Sunday morning.
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Post by redbus on Apr 26, 2019 12:14:28 GMT
We can stand down from being excited about class 710s on Sunday. The timetable has completely changed on realtimetrains and is just the basic half hourly service but starting at lunchtime because of the short notice line closure imposed by Network Rail on Sunday morning. For me the interesting question is this. Was there the intention to try the class 710s on Sunday, but it was scuppered by the late decision of Network Rail to have a line closure?
If so maybe we'll see them on a following Sunday, time to keep watching I think.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 26, 2019 12:20:33 GMT
We can stand down from being excited about class 710s on Sunday. The timetable has completely changed on realtimetrains and is just the basic half hourly service but starting at lunchtime because of the short notice line closure imposed by Network Rail on Sunday morning. For me the interesting question is this. Was there the intention to try the class 710s on Sunday, but it was scuppered by the late decision of Network Rail to have a line closure?
If so maybe we'll see them on a following Sunday, time to keep watching I think.
I think it was more a case of the default full timetable being loaded by accident and then the closure came along. As the GOBLIN weekend timetable has the potential to be varied each weekend I suspect it has to be specially uploaded each week. The user group are sticking with their view that until further modifications are made to the trains there is no prospect of passenger services commencing. I suspect there will be a long programme of software tweaks - some before passengers are carried and plenty more afterwards. This is what's happened with the Siemens Class 700s on Thameslink and is probably also happening with the IEPs on Great Western and on other fleets.
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Post by redbus on Apr 28, 2019 17:47:40 GMT
For me the interesting question is this. Was there the intention to try the class 710s on Sunday, but it was scuppered by the late decision of Network Rail to have a line closure?
If so maybe we'll see them on a following Sunday, time to keep watching I think.
I think it was more a case of the default full timetable being loaded by accident and then the closure came along. As the GOBLIN weekend timetable has the potential to be varied each weekend I suspect it has to be specially uploaded each week. The user group are sticking with their view that until further modifications are made to the trains there is no prospect of passenger services commencing. I suspect there will be a long programme of software tweaks - some before passengers are carried and plenty more afterwards. This is what's happened with the Siemens Class 700s on Thameslink and is probably also happening with the IEPs on Great Western and on other fleets. I am unclear what hardware modifications actually need to be done to the trains to allow them to go into passenger service. As I understood the ORR conditions mandated that changes are required to prevent train surfing and so on, but that that they have a year to undertake those modifications. What does need to be done is a plan for those modifications to be done in the next year and a plan on how to reduce the possibility of things like train surfing in the meantime. Those plans need to be approved by the ORR, but there is a world of difference between agreeing a plan with the ORR and actually undertaking those modifications, as presumably a plan can be agreed fairly quickly if it hasn't been already.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 28, 2019 20:18:30 GMT
I am unclear what hardware modifications actually need to be done to the trains to allow them to go into passenger service. As I understood the ORR conditions mandated that changes are required to prevent train surfing and so on, but that that they have a year to undertake those modifications. What does need to be done is a plan for those modifications to be done in the next year and a plan on how to reduce the possibility of things like train surfing in the meantime. Those plans need to be approved by the ORR, but there is a world of difference between agreeing a plan with the ORR and actually undertaking those modifications, as presumably a plan can be agreed fairly quickly if it hasn't been already. I'm as unclear as you are as I don't know or understand the relevant regulations that ORR are measuring compliance against. From the comments I've seen there is a significant problem relating to the 710s not being allowed to run in multiple. That's a big problem in the event of a train failure as one unit can't push another one out. So far we've not had a 710 conk out on the GOBLIN thereby requiring the rescue loco to take it away. However it is inevitable one will fail on the line at some point. Clearly you can't have 6 rescue locos tagging along behind every train - there aren't the locos, it'd cost a lot of money and it would screw line capacity given freights are often pathed directly behind GOBLIN departures out of Barking. On the train surfing issue I'm rather more cautious than you. I know what the letter says *but* this risk is literally a matter of live and death - someone died in the north west of England while climbing up using external inter-car connector cables. The ORR requirement also applies to static storage in depots as much as running in service given the ever high risk of depot trespass. The graffiti artists will certainly be wanting to chalk up a "first hit" on a 710. I suspect the reality is that Bombardier, ARL, TfL and ORR all know that potentially killing people is something to be avoided if you can so there will be some priority put to this one. Let's face it they have to fix it now because the same issue will apply to literally hundreds of carriages on other for other operators. The faster it's dealt with and proven then it can be rolled out quickly and easily to later builds and retrofitted to LO / MTR Crossrail trains. I don't know what the ARL and ASLEF concerns are but Bombardier clearly have to resolve those or else the customer won't accept the trains and their staff won't drive them. The saving grace is that at least there are plenty of test runs being made now.
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Post by redbus on Apr 28, 2019 21:13:31 GMT
I am unclear what hardware modifications actually need to be done to the trains to allow them to go into passenger service. As I understood the ORR conditions mandated that changes are required to prevent train surfing and so on, but that that they have a year to undertake those modifications. What does need to be done is a plan for those modifications to be done in the next year and a plan on how to reduce the possibility of things like train surfing in the meantime. Those plans need to be approved by the ORR, but there is a world of difference between agreeing a plan with the ORR and actually undertaking those modifications, as presumably a plan can be agreed fairly quickly if it hasn't been already. I'm as unclear as you are as I don't know or understand the relevant regulations that ORR are measuring compliance against. From the comments I've seen there is a significant problem relating to the 710s not being allowed to run in multiple. That's a big problem in the event of a train failure as one unit can't push another one out. So far we've not had a 710 conk out on the GOBLIN thereby requiring the rescue loco to take it away. However it is inevitable one will fail on the line at some point. Clearly you can't have 6 rescue locos tagging along behind every train - there aren't the locos, it'd cost a lot of money and it would screw line capacity given freights are often pathed directly behind GOBLIN departures out of Barking. On the train surfing issue I've rather more cautious than you. I know what the letter says *but* this risk is literally a matter of live and death - someone died in the north west of England while climbing up using external inter-car connector cables. The ORR requirement also applies to static storage in depots as much as running in service given the ever high risk of depot trespass. The graffiti artists will certainly be wanting to chalk up a "first hit" on a 710. I suspect the reality is that Bombardier, ARL, TfL and ORR all know that potentially killing people is something to be avoided if you can so there will be some priority put to this one. Let's face it they have to fix it now because the same issue will apply to literally hundreds of carriages on other for other operators. The faster it's dealt with and proven then it can be rolled out quickly and easily to later builds and retrofitted to LO trains. I don't what the ARL and ASLEF concerns are but Bombardier clearly have to resolve those or else the customer won't accept the trains and their staff won't drive them. The saving grace is that at least there are plenty of test runs being made now. Very interesting. Perhaps alternate 378s and 710s might work, so in the event of a 710 failure the 378 can push it.
As for train surfing you are probably right, and that comes down to the world in which we live.
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Post by ServerKing on Apr 29, 2019 18:46:01 GMT
I'm as unclear as you are as I don't know or understand the relevant regulations that ORR are measuring compliance against. From the comments I've seen there is a significant problem relating to the 710s not being allowed to run in multiple. That's a big problem in the event of a train failure as one unit can't push another one out. So far we've not had a 710 conk out on the GOBLIN thereby requiring the rescue loco to take it away. However it is inevitable one will fail on the line at some point. Clearly you can't have 6 rescue locos tagging along behind every train - there aren't the locos, it'd cost a lot of money and it would screw line capacity given freights are often pathed directly behind GOBLIN departures out of Barking. On the train surfing issue I've rather more cautious than you. I know what the letter says *but* this risk is literally a matter of live and death - someone died in the north west of England while climbing up using external inter-car connector cables. The ORR requirement also applies to static storage in depots as much as running in service given the ever high risk of depot trespass. The graffiti artists will certainly be wanting to chalk up a "first hit" on a 710. I suspect the reality is that Bombardier, ARL, TfL and ORR all know that potentially killing people is something to be avoided if you can so there will be some priority put to this one. Let's face it they have to fix it now because the same issue will apply to literally hundreds of carriages on other for other operators. The faster it's dealt with and proven then it can be rolled out quickly and easily to later builds and retrofitted to LO trains. I don't what the ARL and ASLEF concerns are but Bombardier clearly have to resolve those or else the customer won't accept the trains and their staff won't drive them. The saving grace is that at least there are plenty of test runs being made now. Very interesting. Perhaps alternate 378s and 710s might work, so in the event of a 710 failure the 378 can push it.
Not to dissimilar to the Class 302's and 305's joined together on the LTS Line back in the 90s (am showing my age now)
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Post by richard on May 7, 2019 22:19:12 GMT
Toby Rackliff 🏴🇬🇧🇪🇺 (@tobythetram) Tweeted: Looking sharp (& now with toilets!) Not sure the @ridingthegoblin passengers would recognise their former conveyance! t.co/P8N8J18Lgq t.co/31A5kygMIW t.co/c1KlNLFABf Toby Rackliff 🏴🇬🇧🇪🇺 (@tobythetram) Tweeted: Although the @ldnoverground driver's seat moquette might give the game away! t.co/TedBuDFaet
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Post by george on May 7, 2019 22:21:38 GMT
Toby Rackliff 🏴🇬🇧🇪🇺 (@tobythetram) Tweeted: Looking sharp (& now with toilets!) Not sure the @ridingthegoblin passengers would recognise their former conveyance! t.co/P8N8J18Lgq t.co/31A5kygMIW t.co/c1KlNLFABf Toby Rackliff 🏴🇬🇧🇪🇺 (@tobythetram) Tweeted: Although the @ldnoverground driver's seat moquette might give the game away! t.co/TedBuDFaet Have to say they have done a fantastic job, it looks great.
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Post by snoggle on May 7, 2019 22:53:32 GMT
Very interesting. Perhaps alternate 378s and 710s might work, so in the event of a 710 failure the 378 can push it.
As for train surfing you are probably right, and that comes down to the world in which we live.
A small clarification over the coupling issue. Having seen informed comment elsewhere it seems emergency coupling *is* permitted under the ORR letter. It is coupling for regular operation that is not yet permitted. Of course this is not an issue for the normal operation on the GOBLIN. I don't know if a 378 could push out a 710. It looks to me, after a bit more thought, that ORR have essentially set Bombardier milestones for further phases such as DC operation on the Watford line and then multiple operation as needed for the West Anglia routes. Perhaps this was always the trajectory for their introduction? It's noteworthy that there were no test runs today on the GOBLIN and nothing is scheduled on the WCML overnight. A 710 did run into Liverpool St then to Enfield Town and back and then back to Willesden. It was scheduled over the Graham Road curve in Hackney which doesn't see many train movements these days. Apart from that it has gone incredibly quiet with regard to the 710s - barely a squeak of comment from anywhere.
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Post by richard on May 8, 2019 16:30:22 GMT
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Post by redbus on May 8, 2019 17:31:01 GMT
Very interesting. Perhaps alternate 378s and 710s might work, so in the event of a 710 failure the 378 can push it.
As for train surfing you are probably right, and that comes down to the world in which we live.
A small clarification over the coupling issue. Having seen informed comment elsewhere it seems emergency coupling *is* permitted under the ORR letter. It is coupling for regular operation that is not yet permitted. Of course this is not an issue for the normal operation on the GOBLIN. I don't know if a 378 could push out a 710. It looks to me, after a bit more thought, that ORR have essentially set Bombardier milestones for further phases such as DC operation on the Watford line and then multiple operation as needed for the West Anglia routes. Perhaps this was always the trajectory for their introduction? It's noteworthy that there were no test runs today on the GOBLIN and nothing is scheduled on the WCML overnight. A 710 did run into Liverpool St then to Enfield Town and back and then back to Willesden. It was scheduled over the Graham Road curve in Hackney which doesn't see many train movements these days. Apart from that it has gone incredibly quiet with regard to the 710s - barely a squeak of comment from anywhere. There's only one reason I can think of for it having gone so quiet, they are waiting for something, either a modification to the trains, or I suspect far more likely a new version of the software.
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