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Post by vjaska on Apr 11, 2017 9:47:18 GMT
When the new report comes out, let's see if the 109 holds onto its number one spot for South London's busiest route.
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Post by snowman on Apr 11, 2017 10:36:26 GMT
The other very interesting report that is due soon (likely to be included with agenda on 8th May), is the bus plan. Scheduled to be on the Customer service and Operational Committee May 15th, so it can be discussed before going before full TfL Board on 29th May tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/customer-service-op-performanceThe actions list from previous meeting states "The discussion on the future of buses/new bus network, as set out in the Forward Plan, be brought forward to the next meeting." Confusingly that shows the meeting date as 10th May, not 15th May (but meeting may have been rescheduled). My own guess is the future of buses in Central London is weak, the network is going to be recast from long radial routes (already cut back) to station feeder orbital routes. There is also a need to change from traditional destination of High Street, to new out of town shopping centres, leisure centres and hospitals which could result in some complete local route recasts. On the other hand, the link shows the committee members, it is either Doctors, or Dames / Commanders / Officers of the British Empire. Not your average bus passenger.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 11, 2017 11:23:45 GMT
Three notable things 1. The impact of route restructuring/splitting affected the rankings after 2002. 2. The introduction of bendy buses caused those routes to rise in the rankings as patronage rose. 3. In later years you can see the decline of central london radial services and the growth of key services in West and East London (5, 86, 83, 140). On point 1 )2001/2 was the time I realised buses exist and used them so I dont quite know what happened at the time. I know that the 253 was the combo of the current 253 and 254. Was there any other changes? I see the 18 popped out of nowhere. There was a remarkable rise for the 25 in 02/03 from consistently 9th to 3rd and then 1st. 2) Clearly the stats show a rise of the bendy bus routes in 04/05, including the 38 amongst others, but I dont understand why. There was a theory (or fact) that more people used them for a free ride similar to another type of bus today (begins with L and ends in T). In 04/05 the oyster was in full swing, and so patronage was recorded mainly from oyster data, people probably did not tap in, and so I dont quite understand the rise and the link. I think maybe these stats may have been inflated slightly internally or by Russia. My guess for 16/17, is that the 149 drops out of the top 4. Since 2005 it has been solid top 4th, but good things must come to an end #wengerout sorry #arrivaout. Routes like the 253, 207 and 53 were all restructured into 253/4, 207/427 and 53/453 which is why the 253, 53 and 207 disappear down the top 10. I think we need to be a bit careful about swallowing the "no one touches in on a bendy bus" propoganda. Yes we know evasion levels were higher but an awful lot more people were using buses around this time because the tube was chronically overloaded and relatively unreliable, buses were much cheaper and there were lots of extra buses running. Also the congestion charge kicked in around 2002 which made buses into Zone 1 often much faster and more reliable. All these positives will have supported a growth in patronage. I know it is popular to loathe the bendy buses but some user segments found them convenient and easy to use - more so than the replacement double deckers. I think the emergence of outer London routes in the Top 10 reflects some service restructuring, employment / population growth and the emerging decline of some Central London radial routes. The 25 had several rounds of frequency increases which then drove even more demand and, of course, the 5 was merged with the old 87 to give a "super route" from Canning Town to Romford.
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Post by Whitherminter on Apr 11, 2017 12:14:54 GMT
When the new report comes out, let's see if the 109 holds onto its number one spot for South London's busiest route. I've started going to Brixton in the PM peak to change buses & it is amazing how the Brixton bus stop for Streatham can get so full within a matter of seconds! With routes soon to terminate (i.e. 45 & 59) being full to the brim! It wouldn't surprise me if the 109 retained its place at top spot.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 11, 2017 13:27:32 GMT
When the new report comes out, let's see if the 109 holds onto its number one spot for South London's busiest route. I've started going to Brixton in the PM peak to change buses & it is amazing how the Brixton bus stop for Streatham can get so full within a matter of seconds! With routes soon to terminate (i.e. 45 & 59) being full to the brim! It wouldn't surprise me if the 109 retained its place at top spot. It's been like that for a long time TBH - even when the network wasn't as busy back in the 90's, the Brixton stops were still quite busy. Of course, despite Brixton being an important interchange & destination in its own right with an ever rising population, hardly much of the network has changed over the years - since 2008, the only major change was the introduction of the 415 followed by its extension 7 years later.
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Post by ben on Apr 12, 2017 0:35:21 GMT
A question specifically about Brixton (an area I am not familiar with) - were decent, direct, and quick interchanges to be opened on the Overground at both Brixton and Lboro Jnct., instead of the proposed compromise of just East Brixton, would there be much of bus patronage change? IIRC most of the travel is south along the general corridor the Vic should have taken but never did. However, how much travel is 'sideways' if you get my drift?
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Post by vjaska on Apr 12, 2017 8:02:25 GMT
A question specifically about Brixton (an area I am not familiar with) - were decent, direct, and quick interchanges to be opened on the Overground at both Brixton and Lboro Jnct., instead of the proposed compromise of just East Brixton, would there be much of bus patronage change? IIRC most of the travel is south along the general corridor the Vic should have taken but never did. However, how much travel is 'sideways' if you get my drift? Even with an interchange at Brixton & Loughborough Junction, I still think there would be a great emphasis on bus travel in Brixton. East to west links are only comprised to a handful of routes in the shape of the the 37 & 345 and both routes are very busy - the 345 would probably see a change in demand whereas I still see the 37 largely staying put with maybe a small reduction between Brixton & Clapham Junction due to it serving Clapham Common and where there are a few longer distance passengers on the route.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 12, 2017 8:49:36 GMT
A question specifically about Brixton (an area I am not familiar with) - were decent, direct, and quick interchanges to be opened on the Overground at both Brixton and Lboro Jnct., instead of the proposed compromise of just East Brixton, would there be much of bus patronage change? IIRC most of the travel is south along the general corridor the Vic should have taken but never did. However, how much travel is 'sideways' if you get my drift? The entire area around Brixton is so densely populated that it is extremely good bus territory hence why there are so many routes and such high frequencies. I suspect the introduction of new Overground stations would push up bus demand because even more people would wish to access the new rail services. Yes there might be some losses on the routes vjaska has cited in his reply to you but I suspect the net effect on bus demand would be an overall increase.
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Post by ben on Apr 12, 2017 13:32:35 GMT
Build it and they will come, then....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 15:53:19 GMT
I was in the Tower Hill area working during the marathon. The number of tourists asking directions for the tourist buses was noticeable. There's not even a tube map on some of the maps the firms give to tourists who have bought various passes. Just kind of backs up a suggestion I made that tourists may not be using TfL services as much as they used to.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 26, 2017 16:07:00 GMT
I was in the Tower Hill area working during the marathon. The number of tourists asking directions for the tourist buses was noticeable. There's not even a tube map on some of the maps the firms give to tourists who have bought various passes. Just kind of backs up a suggestion I made that tourists may not be using TfL services as much as they used to. I think that has long been the case since the various tour operators introduced relatively high frequency, hop on hop off routes that circulate via all the sights. If you don't know a city very well then it is the safe option. Next safest are Tube / Subway / Metro lines and then possibly trams. It's only nutters like me that try to unravel the local buses in places where I go on holiday. There may have been some shift in London but I doubt it's been massive. The bigger problem that I've seen via social media is loss of cash payment on buses and the fact some countries don't have very sophisticated use of debit or credit cards (that applies in many european countries where take up is far lower than the UK). Finding out how to get an Oyster Card can be a hurdle too far for some people where English isn't their mother tongue. Us Brits are lucky in that many countries have English as the default "foreign" language so getting hold of and topping up a smartcard ticket isn't impossible if you make a bit of effort. It's very noticeable in places like HK and Singapore that taxis, courtesy shuttle buses and then the MRT / MTR are frequented by tourists. I can't ever recall seeing a fellow tourist at the hotels I've stayed at get on or off local buses. Heck I've even used local buses and the diddy tram line in Tokyo and not even the locals use the buses very much - rail is by far the predominant public transport mode. Just me call bonkers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 16:14:59 GMT
I was in the Tower Hill area working during the marathon. The number of tourists asking directions for the tourist buses was noticeable. There's not even a tube map on some of the maps the firms give to tourists who have bought various passes. Just kind of backs up a suggestion I made that tourists may not be using TfL services as much as they used to. I think that has long been the case since the various tour operators introduced relatively high frequency, hop on hop off routes that circulate via all the sights. If you don't know a city very well then it is the safe option. Next safest are Tube / Subway / Metro lines and then possibly trams. It's only nutters like me that try to unravel the local buses in places where I go on holiday. There may have been some shift in London but I doubt it's been massive. The bigger problem that I've seen via social media is loss of cash payment on buses and the fact some countries don't have very sophisticated use of debit or credit cards (that applies in many european countries where take up is far lower than the UK). Finding out how to get an Oyster Card can be a hurdle too far for some people where English isn't their mother tongue. Us Brits are lucky in that many countries have English as the default "foreign" language so getting hold of and topping up a smartcard ticket isn't impossible if you make a bit of effort. It's very noticeable in places like HK and Singapore that taxis, courtesy shuttle buses and then the MRT / MTR are frequented by tourists. I can't ever recall seeing a fellow tourist at the hotels I've stayed at get on or off local buses. Heck I've even used local buses and the diddy tram line in Tokyo and not even the locals use the buses very much - rail is by far the predominant public transport mode. Just me call bonkers. You're not the only bonker ! I loved visiting Budapest and using the trams and buses there. And when transiting through Paris I try and learn another bus route there !
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Post by snoggle on Apr 26, 2017 17:24:24 GMT
You're not the only bonker ! I loved visiting Budapest and using the trams and buses there. And when transiting through Paris I try and learn another bus route there ! I've only visited Budapest once on an Interrail and it was just around the collapse of communism. We stayed in a local's flat overnight which meant using the 73 bus - run with Ikarus artics. It was very busy indeed and quite an experience given the appalling state of the roads and unsympathetic suspension. We did use the trams a fair bit and also visited the Pioneer Railway. Don't recall using the metro there. I have forced myself to use buses in Paris but many are very slow - their Central area traffic is far worse than ours or routes are infrequent (20 min scheduled wait for a bus up the Champs Elysees). Things have improved in some of the suburbs but they are far from the usual haunt of visitors. St Denis or Bobigny anyone? Never dared go to Creteil given its reputation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 21:51:22 GMT
You're not the only bonker ! I loved visiting Budapest and using the trams and buses there. And when transiting through Paris I try and learn another bus route there ! I've only visited Budapest once on an Interrail and it was just around the collapse of communism. We stayed in a local's flat overnight which meant using the 73 bus - run with Ikarus artics. It was very busy indeed and quite an experience given the appalling state of the roads and unsympathetic suspension. We did use the trams a fair bit and also visited the Pioneer Railway. Don't recall using the metro there. I have forced myself to use buses in Paris but many are very slow - their Central area traffic is far worse than ours or routes are infrequent (20 min scheduled wait for a bus up the Champs Elysees). Things have improved in some of the suburbs but they are far from the usual haunt of visitors. St Denis or Bobigny anyone? Never dared go to Creteil given its reputation. Ratp route 75 shares many characteristics of TfL route 75 , that's as far as I have dared thus far. Paris is certainly one divided city these days.
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Post by twobellstogo on Apr 26, 2017 22:09:48 GMT
You're not the only bonker ! I loved visiting Budapest and using the trams and buses there. And when transiting through Paris I try and learn another bus route there ! I've only visited Budapest once on an Interrail and it was just around the collapse of communism. We stayed in a local's flat overnight which meant using the 73 bus - run with Ikarus artics. It was very busy indeed and quite an experience given the appalling state of the roads and unsympathetic suspension. We did use the trams a fair bit and also visited the Pioneer Railway. Don't recall using the metro there. I have forced myself to use buses in Paris but many are very slow - their Central area traffic is far worse than ours or routes are infrequent (20 min scheduled wait for a bus up the Champs Elysees). Things have improved in some of the suburbs but they are far from the usual haunt of visitors. St Denis or Bobigny anyone? Never dared go to Creteil given its reputation. Creteil is pretty nondescript really. Think of a French version of Thamesmead. Northern and eastern Parisian suburbs are way more scary -Stains, Garges, Sarcelles, Aulnay-sous-Bois, La Corneuve... *shudder*
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