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Post by redbus on Apr 24, 2017 19:41:20 GMT
You are probably right that many people do travel by bus because its cheaper than tube. However, if the bus fare increased like it has most of the past decade, what are most passengers going to do? Probably pay the increase because there is no alternative 'cheaper' public transport and depending on a typical bus journey it is unlikely that people would transfer into private i.e walk/cycle. Therefore, the demand would be inelastic. However, I would say the longer bus journeys now would make demand more 'elastic', but still inelastic. I respect Khan for following through with his pledge. Does not mean I agree with them, after all I did not vote for him. Neither did I because the fare freeze was always going to backfire one way or the other. It's way I didn't vote in Livingstone the second time either. I respect the mayor for keeping the pledge about freezing fares (we'll forget about travelcards and daily /weekly price caps for a minute) and the hopper ticket. Where the Mayor loses me is over the bus cuts taking place, which unless I have misread something, weren't in his manifesto. For me the service is more important than fares, as you need a bus to travel on before you pay your fare!
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Post by snoggle on Apr 24, 2017 23:37:53 GMT
I respect the mayor for keeping the pledge about freezing fares (we'll forget about travelcards and daily /weekly price caps for a minute) and the hopper ticket. Where the Mayor loses me is over the bus cuts taking place, which unless I have misread something, weren't in his manifesto. For me the service is more important than fares, as you need a bus to travel on before you pay your fare! Yes this is precisely the point but there were no specifics in the manifesto about positively improving bus services other than greener vehicles which are really part of the Environmental policy package. The Hopper ticket / fares freeze were "Affordable London" policies. There were a couple of "handy wavey" warm sounding soundbites about buses but zero substance hence why nothing of any substance is being done to improve them. I doubt the "Mayor's Bus Action Plan" even originated at City Hall - I suspect it's a TfL invention which the Commissioner persuaded the Mayor to endorse to avoid too much negative publicity when the brown stuff hits the fan when the next Annual Report is published and one or two clued up people look at the numbers and craft some articles / commentary about what's going on.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 8, 2017 21:57:52 GMT
Miss Pidgeon getting in early to remind everyone the Hopper ticket wasn't the Mayor's idea. Sheesh a year of wrecking the bus network and TfL's finances and not stimulating any patronage increase. What an achievement.
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Post by sid on Sept 9, 2017 6:55:42 GMT
Miss Pidgeon getting in early to remind everyone the Hopper ticket wasn't the Mayor's idea. Sheesh a year of wrecking the bus network and TfL's finances and not stimulating any patronage increase. What an achievement. Would it not be reasonable to assume that there would have been an even greater loss of patronage without the hopper ticket?
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Post by mondraker275 on Sept 9, 2017 9:18:36 GMT
Miss Pidgeon getting in early to remind everyone the Hopper ticket wasn't the Mayor's idea. Sheesh a year of wrecking the bus network and TfL's finances and not stimulating any patronage increase. What an achievement. Would it not be reasonable to assume that there would have been an even greater loss of patronage without the hopper ticket? Firstly, I hope someone told them to be careful with that big red bus behind them, we know the dangers they possess.... Heck I guess the alternatively was actually to get them to use a bus... Personally, the hopper has been beneficial for me, although I would have coped without it, maybe even been more active. I still would like to know whether this data is inflated by people who went on the reach the daily cap anyway, thus making no financial saving, yet adding to hopper use possibly twice.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 9, 2017 14:30:48 GMT
Would it not be reasonable to assume that there would have been an even greater loss of patronage without the hopper ticket? I based my comment on the established view that if you effectively cut people's travel costs they will travel more. We have seen no definite evidence that either the Fares Freeze or the Hopper Ticket have stimulated travel. Your suggestion may well be true but we have little data to support that. If a price cut is not having an obvious stimulus effect then it may be reasonable to assume that other factors such as slow buses and extended journey times are a far greater factor in affecting the volume of bus travel.
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Post by vjaska on Sept 9, 2017 14:40:53 GMT
Would it not be reasonable to assume that there would have been an even greater loss of patronage without the hopper ticket? Firstly, I hope someone told them to be careful with that big red bus behind them, we know the dangers they possess.... Heck I guess the alternatively was actually to get them to use a bus... Personally, the hopper has been beneficial for me, although I would have coped without it, maybe even been more active. I still would like to know whether this data is inflated by people who went on the reach the daily cap anyway, thus making no financial saving, yet adding to hopper use possibly twice. Has anyone noticed that the pic was actually taken a good number of years ago and they've literally stuck text onto the Oyster card - the bus in the background is a Euro II Plaxton Pointer I Dart SLF on the 360.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 9, 2017 18:26:39 GMT
Has anyone noticed that the pic was actually taken a good number of years ago and they've literally stuck text onto the Oyster card - the bus in the background is a Euro II Plaxton Pointer I Dart SLF on the 360. It is no doubt Ms Pidgeon's subtle way of making the point that the Lib Dems had been promoting the one hour bus ticket for years and years.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 11, 2017 11:29:07 GMT
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Post by mondraker275 on Sept 11, 2017 15:10:26 GMT
The unlimited journeys in the hour will not make much difference. I just about stress out trying to get on the second bus within the hour. I would be surprised if anyone would start a 3rd journey within the hour. The in between tube journey is slightly more useful I guess but not dramatic. Therefore I doubt it will drastically cost anymore money to TfL.
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Post by ibus246 on Sept 11, 2017 22:07:00 GMT
The unlimited journeys in the hour will not make much difference. I just about stress out trying to get on the second bus within the hour. I would be surprised if anyone would start a 3rd journey within the hour. The in between tube journey is slightly more useful I guess but not dramatic. Therefore I doubt it will drastically cost anymore money to TfL. You'd be surprised - earlier, I caught a 407 from Sutton to Carshalton changed for the quicker 127 from Carshalton to Purley and then at Purley changed for the 434 home. All within one hour but was charged £3.00
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Post by Hassaan on Sept 11, 2017 23:04:26 GMT
Definitely agree with you there about getting unlimited number of journeys in an hour. Already the bus fares in London are some of the lowest in the country, especially when you look at just how comprehensive the network is (even after recent cuts). But I do welcome having a free bus journey either side of a rail journey, as it makes things cheaper for those who aren't lucky enough to live within walking distance of a station. I'd say the most important for Oyster now is to start using the new method of calculating daily caps as used by Contactless cards, which can mean a difference of several £ and provide more incentive to use quieter rail services in the outer zones (although I notice it would lead to even fewer bus journeys ). For example, someone starts the day with a single Uxbridge to Ruislip journey on the Metropolitan line (instead of taking the direct bus the U1), and then only uses buses after that. With Oyster they would keep getting charged until they reach the Z1-6 cap of £12 (or in my case £7.90 as I have a 16-25 railcard). However, with Contactless that person would not get charged more than £6.20 as the system would notice that a total of the bus cap (£4.50) plus the single Tube journey (£1.50 off-peak or £1.70 peak) is cheaper than the Z1-6 cap. (More info on that here)
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Post by snoggle on Sept 12, 2017 1:01:05 GMT
I'd say the most important for Oyster now is to start using the new method of calculating daily caps as used by Contactless cards, which can mean a difference of several £ and provide more incentive to use quieter rail services in the outer zones (although I notice it would lead to even fewer bus journeys ). For example, someone starts the day with a single Uxbridge to Ruislip journey on the Metropolitan line (instead of taking the direct bus the U1), and then only uses buses after that. With Oyster they would keep getting charged until they reach the Z1-6 cap of £12 (or in my case £7.90 as I have a 16-25 railcard). However, with Contactless that person would not get charged more than £6.20 as the system would notice that a total of the bus cap (£4.50) plus the single Tube journey (£1.50 off-peak or £1.70 peak) is cheaper than the Z1-6 cap. (More info on that here) I believe you are wrong about the Oyster capping. Oyster cards have three "slots" for the different caps. I have an official TfL presentation that explains the logic. One of the slots is for the bus cap, one for all modes peak capping, one for all modes off peak capping. In your example the system will hold the single rail fare separate and add that to the bus cap to give a cap of £6.20 or £6 depending on peak or off peak for the tube jny. I don't read Mr Whitaker's article in the same that you are reading it. His specific example relates to long outer to Z1 tube trips in the peak / end of the day coupled with a lot of Z12 trips. I can see how you may get some odd pricing because the AM peak tube jny may trigger a high cap but in principle, and ignoring the line to Gatwick which is a pricing disaster area, the system should work as it always has.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 12, 2017 1:13:42 GMT
The unlimited journeys in the hour will not make much difference. I just about stress out trying to get on the second bus within the hour. I would be surprised if anyone would start a 3rd journey within the hour. The in between tube journey is slightly more useful I guess but not dramatic. Therefore I doubt it will drastically cost anymore money to TfL. I'm not convinced. I accept we are discussing the future but I just view anything that dilutes TfL's income as ridiculous at the moment. I would be a lot less bothered if there was any evidence *at all* that the fares freeze / hopper ticket was having any sort of stimulus effect in terms of more travel and thus a potential uptick in revenue. There's negligible sign that patronage on *any* mode, not just buses, is ahead of TfL's target. There is no great surge in tube travel nor on DLR or Overground. The only glimmer appears to be TfL Rail. All the traditional evidence is that if you give people an effective price cut they consume more of whatever. Now transport is slightly odd in that (almost all) people travel for other reasons - to work, to shop, to go to school, visit friends whatever. What economists call "derived demand". The lack of patronage growth suggests to me that wider economic issues are kicking in - people not spending on discretionary items, cutting back on socialising / eating out / cinema etc. I also suspect that the "B word" is also affecting London area employment as people aren't coming here to work, others have left / are leaving and businesses have stopped or will soon stop investment thus dampening down employment prospects. It's not a crisis yet as there are still vacancies in the economy but I do think London will be disproportionately affected and so will TfL's income. If I am right then that will cause huge issues for TfL's budget - it's predicated on ongoing economic growth and population increase. If those go backwards then income drops and gimmicks like enhanced Hopper fares will merely add to the agony at the worst time. Similar issues also affect the TOC franchises - many are based on astronomic growth assumptions and a willingness to tolerate more fare increases. Watch that one vanish pretty fast thus giving the DfT all sorts of headaches when the TOCs knock on the door demanding a renegotiation of their franchises just as Stagecoach has done with East Coast.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 2, 2018 0:23:43 GMT
Unlimited hopper ticket for bus and tram journeys starts later this month (Jan 2018). What is not mentioned is whether the hopper discount will apply to a second bus taken after a tube / rail journey. This was supposed to be part of the same functionality but isn't mentioned. I assume the full Mayoral press release will be published later today once people are in their offices. www.mayorwatch.co.uk/sadiq-confirms-unlimited-hopper-bus-fare-is-coming-this-month/
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