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Post by snoggle on May 3, 2017 19:16:04 GMT
Walthamstow changing at Liverpool Street would be a reasonable alternative if the Victoria Line was stuffed. As a fall back then, yes, fine. However we are talking about changing into a 4 tph service at Liverpool St which may work seamlessly or may not meaning a 14.5 min wait. If we are to start at Oxford Circus then in future it will be a 5-6 min walk to either half way down Oxford St to enter TCR station at Dean St or 5-6 mins round to Hanover Square then another 5-6 mins to reach the platform. So far it's taken twice as long as reaching the Vic Line. We then have a 1-2 min wait (assuming it's the peak) for a Crossrail train then 4-5 mins to Liv St (from official TfL document) then 5-6 mins to exit plus 3 mins to reach main line platforms and, being kind, a 7-8 min wait for a train which then takes 17 mins to Walthamstow Central. It's then another 15 mins or so to my local area. I make that over an hour which, if you have no alternative, is tolerable because you have no real choice. The Vic Line takes 20 mins or so from Oxo to where I'd get off to get a bus and being kind let's say the wait time and journey time is another 11 mins. That is roughly how long it took me door to door today which I think is pretty decent. That gives the Vic Line a total of 36 mins vs 65 using main line post Crossrail. As you can see Crossrail is not a viable alternative but, like many other routes in London, it provides a fall back position for me (and probably others if they know their rail network). In future there will also be the option of Crossrail to Stratford and then STAR to Tottenham Hale to pick up a bus. Again STAR will, at best, be a 15 min headway service and the running speed is pitifully slow (assuming NR don't raise the line speeds). Fine as a back up, hopeless as a day to day option.
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Post by sid on May 3, 2017 19:19:40 GMT
Walthamstow changing at Liverpool Street would be a reasonable alternative if the Victoria Line was stuffed. As a fall back then, yes, fine. However we are talking about changing into a 4 tph service at Liverpool St which may work seamlessly or may not meaning a 14.5 min wait. If we are to start at Oxford Circus then in future it will be a 5-6 min walk to either half way down Oxford St to enter TCR station at Dean St or 5-6 mins round to Hanover Square then another 5-6 mins to reach the platform. So far it's taken twice as long as reaching the Vic Line. We then have a 1-2 min wait (assuming it's the peak) for a Crossrail train then 4-5 mins to Liv St (from official TfL document) then 5-6 mins to exit plus 3 mins to reach main line platforms and, being kind, a 7-8 min wait for a train which then takes 17 mins to Walthamstow Central. It's then another 15 mins or so to my local area. I make that over an hour which, if you have no alternative, is tolerable because you have no real choice. The Vic Line takes 20 mins or so from Oxo to where I'd get off to get a bus and being kind let's say the wait time and journey time is another 11 mins. That is roughly how long it took me door to door today which I think is pretty decent. That gives the Vic Line a total of 36 mins vs 65 using main line post Crossrail. As you can see Crossrail is not a viable alternative but, like many other routes in London, it provides a fall back position for me (and probably others if they know their rail network). In future there will also be the option of Crossrail to Stratford and then STAR to Tottenham Hale to pick up a bus. Again STAR will, at best, be a 15 min headway service and the running speed is pitifully slow (assuming NR don't raise the line speeds). Fine as a back up, hopeless as a day to day option. I was only suggesting it as a back up in extreme circumstances, I realise that it would take a lot longer than going direct via the Victoria Line.
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Post by redbus on May 3, 2017 20:42:35 GMT
Oxford Street pedestrianisation will be a success. Crossrail will bring in new customers regardless, and Oxford Street being traffic free will also bring in some more people at least initially. Customers will also be lost as a result of fewer buses bringing in fewer shoppers, but overall with Crossrail numbers will surely go up at least in the short term. People will be inconvenienced by the bus network changes, and any such downsides will be ignored!
Oxford Street has peculiarities which do make it different from other pedestrianisation schemes as has been mentioned, in particular the lack of alternative routes especially for buses. The lack of ring roads, buses etc won't stop it being a success as Crossrail passengers and the name and pulling power of Oxford Street will see to that. For these reasons it won't be comparable to other shopping street pedestrianisation schemes.
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Post by redexpress on May 3, 2017 20:56:20 GMT
Crossrail will "whisk" people there if they happen to live near a Crossrail station. For those of us that don't, we'll still need to use the packed tube - I can't see Crossrail making any dent in the Victoria Line loadings. Have you seen the queues to get into Oxford Circus station in the peaks? That's why we need buses to provide part of the capacity in the area. The whole area's connectivity is being sacrificed to feed property-developethis fantasy r-brochure vision that the retailers have of Oxford Street. As others have said, there's much more to this area than just the big shops on Oxford Street - there are all sorts of offices and other businesses, as well as a fair few residents (and these residents don't all fit the stereotype of the megarich taxi / chauffeur-driven car user). The fantasy is this notion that buses that are generally not well used at the moment, and will be even less so when Crossrail opens, are the be all and end all. Obviously there will still be buses at either end of the pedestrianized area. And if the Victoria Line is jam packed then Crossrail (and the capacity elsewhere freed up by it) will give alternative options even for journies to the north or south changing where necessary. Who said anything about buses being the "be all and end all"? I said quite clearly that they provide part of the capacity in the area. It is nonsense to expect just one transport mode (Crossrail) to cater for all transport needs in a very busy area. There is certainly scope for reductions in the bus network here, but failing to recognise just how useful buses are in this area is ridiculous.
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Post by sid on May 3, 2017 21:04:37 GMT
The fantasy is this notion that buses that are generally not well used at the moment, and will be even less so when Crossrail opens, are the be all and end all. Obviously there will still be buses at either end of the pedestrianized area. And if the Victoria Line is jam packed then Crossrail (and the capacity elsewhere freed up by it) will give alternative options even for journies to the north or south changing where necessary. Who said anything about buses being the "be all and end all"? I said quite clearly that they provide part of the capacity in the area. It is nonsense to expect just one transport mode (Crossrail) to cater for all transport needs in a very busy area. There is certainly scope for reductions in the bus network here, but failing to recognise just how useful buses are in this area is ridiculous. But that's all that is proposed, reductions. There will still be buses at the ends of the pedestrianised area.
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Post by redexpress on May 3, 2017 21:13:12 GMT
Who said anything about buses being the "be all and end all"? I said quite clearly that they provide part of the capacity in the area. It is nonsense to expect just one transport mode (Crossrail) to cater for all transport needs in a very busy area. There is certainly scope for reductions in the bus network here, but failing to recognise just how useful buses are in this area is ridiculous. But that's all that is proposed, reductions. There will still be buses at the ends of the pedestrianised area. Erm... reductions to zero, once the area is fully pedestrianised! The point is that many people will be facing long walks to get to their bus, and Crossrail is not going to help them. Now I don't mind walking - I walk a lot - but not everyone is able to walk that much. As I've said before I'm not totally against pedestrianisation but we cannot ignore the impact on accessibility. As it happens I made an unplanned visit to a shop on Oxford Street today, and I was able to hop on a bus from TCR to John Lewis, which saved me a lot of time and effort. If I hadn't had that option I think I wouldn't have bothered going to the shop.
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Post by sid on May 3, 2017 21:21:21 GMT
But that's all that is proposed, reductions. There will still be buses at the ends of the pedestrianised area. Erm... reductions to zero, once the area is fully pedestrianised! The point is that many people will be facing long walks to get to their bus, and Crossrail is not going to help them. Now I don't mind walking - I walk a lot - but not everyone is able to walk that much. As I've said before I'm not totally against pedestrianisation but we cannot ignore the impact on accessibility. As it happens I made an unplanned visit to a shop on Oxford Street today, and I was able to hop on a bus from TCR to John Lewis, which saved me a lot of time and effort. If I hadn't had that option I think I wouldn't have bothered going to the shop. Obviously there will be no buses in the pedestrianised area and the fact is that you can't please everybody.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 21:25:39 GMT
I remain convinced that there has been no study into how many bus users , shop and work on this street. It's as if they're ignored, they don't exist. They can walk. F@@k them , put them on the train instead.
Oxford Street east end is a dive , always has been. Small tacky souvenir shops , fast food outlets and crappy arcades.
Oxford Street west end is of course better, and if I had a say, I'd perhaps compromise and close off Baker Street to John Princes Street only. That's where the money is. Retailers east of Great Portland Street are neither here nor there.
It's a total disgrace that bus passengers far and wide will be chucked off at extremities of this rather tacky tourist trap just so one can step into the road and not be hit by a bus. Let's face it, you're more likely to have your phone snatched out of your hand by a moped riding thug or get your pocket dipped than run over by a bus.
I don't know anyone who shops there, and as others have said, with the lovely Westfields, Bluewaters and Lakesides , even Brent Cross, this is last ditch territory from the New West End Company. I hope Crossrail simply whisks people away into White City instead.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 21:35:24 GMT
And the statistic to throw back at those who harp on about bus crashes and serious injury accidents is to enquire how many bus drivers have been prosecuted as a result of these accidents.
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Post by redbus on May 3, 2017 22:27:46 GMT
Erm... reductions to zero, once the area is fully pedestrianised! The point is that many people will be facing long walks to get to their bus, and Crossrail is not going to help them. Now I don't mind walking - I walk a lot - but not everyone is able to walk that much. As I've said before I'm not totally against pedestrianisation but we cannot ignore the impact on accessibility. As it happens I made an unplanned visit to a shop on Oxford Street today, and I was able to hop on a bus from TCR to John Lewis, which saved me a lot of time and effort. If I hadn't had that option I think I wouldn't have bothered going to the shop. Obviously there will be no buses in the pedestrianised area and the fact is that you can't please everybody. Sure there will be a reduced level of buses at each end, but that won't help those wanting to travel down Oxford Street. Wigmore Street whilst not ideal is at least is walkable from all of Oxford Street West(leaving aside those less mobile who seem to have been forgotten in this whole thing anyway). If you can't run buses down Wigmore Street there really will be a big problem. Worse when it's cold or rains you could take a bus down Oxford Street, when pedestrianised it will not be a pleasant experience as you will have to walk, and shopping is supposed to be enjoyable.
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Post by snoggle on May 3, 2017 23:50:02 GMT
and shopping is supposed to be enjoyable. What? So that's where I have been going all these years. Not realising that parting with hard earned cash in crowded shops and dealing with indifferent staff (a lot of the time) is supposed to be Fun Fun Fun. I think I'd rather go to the dentist. Hmm..... perhaps not.
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Post by sid on May 4, 2017 6:29:28 GMT
Obviously there will be no buses in the pedestrianised area and the fact is that you can't please everybody. Sure there will be a reduced level of buses at each end, but that won't help those wanting to travel down Oxford Street. Wigmore Street whilst not ideal is at least is walkable from all of Oxford Street West(leaving aside those less mobile who seem to have been forgotten in this whole thing anyway). If you can't run buses down Wigmore Street there really will be a big problem. Worse when it's cold or rains you could take a bus down Oxford Street, when pedestrianised it will not be a pleasant experience as you will have to walk, and shopping is supposed to be enjoyable. I think you're making far too much of this, it was inevitable that Crossrail would mean some reductions in bus services. Hopefully one or two routes will be able to use Wigmore Street but it wouldn't be the end of the world if they couldn't. Shopping will be far more enjoyable when it becomes traffic free.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 7:00:53 GMT
Sure there will be a reduced level of buses at each end, but that won't help those wanting to travel down Oxford Street. Wigmore Street whilst not ideal is at least is walkable from all of Oxford Street West(leaving aside those less mobile who seem to have been forgotten in this whole thing anyway). If you can't run buses down Wigmore Street there really will be a big problem. Worse when it's cold or rains you could take a bus down Oxford Street, when pedestrianised it will not be a pleasant experience as you will have to walk, and shopping is supposed to be enjoyable. I think you're making far too much of this, it was inevitable that Crossrail would mean some reductions in bus services. Hopefully one or two routes will be able to use Wigmore Street but it wouldn't be the end of the world if they couldn't. Shopping will be far more enjoyable when it becomes traffic free. Shopping is but one aspect , which is trumping all other considerations. So effectively it's money talking here, please don't be fooled by the improved shopping experience arguement. What about people who work in John Lewis and live in Battersea , who will have to alight the 137 at Speakers Corner , and then either walk , change buses, or head to the tube via deeply unpleasant subways . What if you're pregnant , and would rather stay on the surface rather than head up and down escalators to reach their workplace or shopping destination. Then we have people with disabilities of all kinds who may find bus travel safer and easier, who have been ignored . Just so the shops & council can make more money, that's what this is all about mate. They play the safety and air pollution card in their favour, but only because it suits their end game, not because they genuinely care about pollution ! If authorities did, then we'd all be in electric vehicles by now.
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Post by sid on May 4, 2017 7:10:35 GMT
I think you're making far too much of this, it was inevitable that Crossrail would mean some reductions in bus services. Hopefully one or two routes will be able to use Wigmore Street but it wouldn't be the end of the world if they couldn't. Shopping will be far more enjoyable when it becomes traffic free. Shopping is but one aspect , which is trumping all other considerations. So effectively it's money talking here, please don't be fooled by the improved shopping experience arguement. What about people who work in John Lewis and live in Battersea , who will have to alight the 137 at Speakers Corner , and then either walk , change buses, or head to the tube via deeply unpleasant subways . What if you're pregnant , and would rather stay on the surface rather than head up and down escalators to reach their workplace or shopping destination. Then we have people with disabilities of all kinds who may find bus travel safer and easier, who have been ignored . Just so the shops & council can make more money, that's what this is all about mate. They play the safety and air pollution card in their favour, but only because it suits their end game, not because they genuinely care about pollution ! If authorities did, then we'd all be in electric vehicles by now. Well firstly I don't think the 137 should be turfing everyone off at Speakers Corner and it should be rerouted to Portman Square or even Baker Street Station. Deeply unpleasant subways? Haven't they been filled in and replaced with surface level crossings? The other arguments were all put forward years ago when North End in Croydon was pedestrianised and no doubt other schemes as well? You'll never please everybody and there are far more pros than cons regarding pedestrianisation. Those who like the scheme (probably the vast majority?) will shop there and those that don't will shop elsewhere. Obviously shops in Oxford Street want to make more money and they've got serious competition from nearby Westfield to contend with.
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Post by vjaska on May 4, 2017 9:18:43 GMT
Shopping is but one aspect , which is trumping all other considerations. So effectively it's money talking here, please don't be fooled by the improved shopping experience arguement. What about people who work in John Lewis and live in Battersea , who will have to alight the 137 at Speakers Corner , and then either walk , change buses, or head to the tube via deeply unpleasant subways . What if you're pregnant , and would rather stay on the surface rather than head up and down escalators to reach their workplace or shopping destination. Then we have people with disabilities of all kinds who may find bus travel safer and easier, who have been ignored . Just so the shops & council can make more money, that's what this is all about mate. They play the safety and air pollution card in their favour, but only because it suits their end game, not because they genuinely care about pollution ! If authorities did, then we'd all be in electric vehicles by now. Well firstly I don't think the 137 should be turfing everyone off at Speakers Corner and it should be rerouted to Portman Square or even Baker Street Station. Deeply unpleasant subways? Haven't they been filled in and replaced with surface level crossings? The other arguments were all put forward years ago when North End in Croydon was pedestrianised and no doubt other schemes as well? You'll never please everybody and there are far more pros than cons regarding pedestrianisation. Those who like the scheme (probably the vast majority?) will shop there and those that don't will shop elsewhere. Obviously shops in Oxford Street want to make more money and they've got serious competition from nearby Westfield to contend with. The difference is Croydon has three quarters of a ring road to disperse traffic to whereas Oxford Street hasn't. Oh and look how Croydon has turned out in regards to bus travel - lots of walking to bus stops scattered all around the town. As for that 137 statement, re-routing it or terminating it doesn't help any worker or customer traveling to shops at the Oxford Circus end - it is in effect TfL literally setting up their own sort of shopping experience by charging the customers before they've even made it to the shops where they will be charged again.
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