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Post by route53 on May 4, 2022 18:31:03 GMT
Maybe, but once people will realise how fast and cheap the Lizzie Line is I can see a major shift away from the Jubilee line in the Woolwich, Plumstead, Thamesmead, Abbey Wood and Belvedere areas, something which I’m sure the residents of Charlton, Blackheath, Kidbrooke & Eltham will be grateful for (and as a Blackheath resident I hope the Woolwich/Plumstead crowd use the Liz as much as possible to free the Jubilee up for us! 😂) Can't see how big the shift will be, the Jubilee line goes to Waterloo, London Bridge and the likes while the Liz goes to Farringdon and Liverpool Street. The most I can see is the crowd at North Greenwich moving to Canary Wharf instead. The Woolwich line also goes to London Bridge and Waterloo East, I think the shift will be much bigger than you anticipate based on the fact that in twenty days you can literally get to the Docklands , Stratford (via a change at Whitechapel) the City and the West End on one line and much faster than the Jubilee
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Post by WH241 on May 4, 2022 19:17:41 GMT
Not thus far but I can see other bodge job mergers happening like the 1 & 21 and then, like you say, eventually reversed if bus travel is finally given what it's needed. I'd too like to see things like the 53 return to Oxford Circus (I get treated like I'm against long routes because I don't argue in favour of them all the time when in fact, they rather excite just I'd rather have a reliable route over one that's great for enthusiasts) but for that to happen, attitudes towards congestion & traffic have to seriously shift and no one in traffic planning, local authorities or politicians seem capable outside of the odd one or two. Hopefully, one day it happens The 1 & 21 are also quite random routes to extend, they’re not over extending more well known and iconic routes like the 3, 15 or 53, routes which arguably need a short extension. I know you’re not against long routes, I myself am for and against them, despite my initial excitement of the 1 & 21 changes I do see that it’s a set up to fail, where as the 53 being re-extended just to Trafalgar Sqaure or the 2 to Crystal Palace could work as it’s short extension* they just need to make sense and with horrible traffic on London roads I really think the days of one bus route from Croydon to Euston or Plumstead to Hampstead or Bexleyheath to Crystal Palace are well and truly over, the X26, X68 and X140 being the exceptions. *not advocating the 2 being extended to Crystal Palace mind you but just using that as an example I wonder if TfL are setting things up to fail so these log routes are suddenly shortened on 6 months then saving even more money? A bit like shrinkflation were things get smaller and smaller.
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Post by ronnie on May 4, 2022 19:48:44 GMT
Can't see how big the shift will be, the Jubilee line goes to Waterloo, London Bridge and the likes while the Liz goes to Farringdon and Liverpool Street. The most I can see is the crowd at North Greenwich moving to Canary Wharf instead. The Woolwich line also goes to London Bridge and Waterloo East, I think the shift will be much bigger than you anticipate based on the fact that in twenty days you can literally get to the Docklands , Stratford (via a change at Whitechapel) the City and the West End on one line and much faster than the Jubilee Twenty days is plenty of time to get anywhere in the U.K. !!!!
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Post by cl54 on May 4, 2022 19:51:20 GMT
Maybe, but once people will realise how fast and cheap the Lizzie Line is I can see a major shift away from the Jubilee line in the Woolwich, Plumstead, Thamesmead, Abbey Wood and Belvedere areas, something which I’m sure the residents of Charlton, Blackheath, Kidbrooke & Eltham will be grateful for (and as a Blackheath resident I hope the Woolwich/Plumstead crowd use the Liz as much as possible to free the Jubilee up for us! 😂) Can't see how big the shift will be, the Jubilee line goes to Waterloo, London Bridge and the likes while the Liz goes to Farringdon and Liverpool Street. The most I can see is the crowd at North Greenwich moving to Canary Wharf instead. The Crossrail to Jubilee line interchange at Canary Wharf is a long walk (particularly when you add in the two flights of escalators from the former). The draw of North Greenwich is that holders of Zone 1/2 Travelcards get their bus travel across the whole of London free.
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Post by route53 on May 4, 2022 23:14:47 GMT
The 1 & 21 are also quite random routes to extend, they’re not over extending more well known and iconic routes like the 3, 15 or 53, routes which arguably need a short extension. I know you’re not against long routes, I myself am for and against them, despite my initial excitement of the 1 & 21 changes I do see that it’s a set up to fail, where as the 53 being re-extended just to Trafalgar Sqaure or the 2 to Crystal Palace could work as it’s short extension* they just need to make sense and with horrible traffic on London roads I really think the days of one bus route from Croydon to Euston or Plumstead to Hampstead or Bexleyheath to Crystal Palace are well and truly over, the X26, X68 and X140 being the exceptions. *not advocating the 2 being extended to Crystal Palace mind you but just using that as an example I wonder if TfL are setting things up to fail so these log routes are suddenly shortened on 6 months then saving even more money? A bit like shrinkflation were things get smaller and smaller. Maybe, it could even give TfL justification to make even more cutbacks to routes they deem to be too long.
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Post by southlondonbus on May 6, 2022 8:23:13 GMT
London bus routes confirms the 472 change for the 14th May aswell. Freqs reduced to every 8 mins (12 Sundays) and shorts from Chalton to North Greenwich withdrawn which the consultation did say would remain. I guess assumption of demand is now that the 180 and 472 freqs will be enough.
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Post by DT 11 on May 6, 2022 8:33:14 GMT
London bus routes confirms the 472 change for the 14th May aswell. Freqs reduced to every 8 mins (12 Sundays) and shorts from Chalton to North Greenwich withdrawn which the consultation did say would remain. I guess assumption of demand is now that the 180 and 472 freqs will be enough. No one said it wasn’t happening. It was always the intention for 129 180 469 472 B11 to all change on the same date...
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Post by southlondonbus on May 6, 2022 8:55:59 GMT
London bus routes confirms the 472 change for the 14th May aswell. Freqs reduced to every 8 mins (12 Sundays) and shorts from Chalton to North Greenwich withdrawn which the consultation did say would remain. I guess assumption of demand is now that the 180 and 472 freqs will be enough. No one said it wasn’t happening. It was always the intention for 129 180 469 472 B11 to all change on the same date... Neither did I. I was just pointing out that the update had been made with thr final freqs.
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Post by route53 on May 6, 2022 12:00:45 GMT
I struggle to believe that once CrossRail is fully up and running that hordes of commuters and leisure travellers alike would choose to sit on a bus for 40 mins plus from Erith to North Greenwich to board a rather busy and cramped Jubilee line to get to Stratford, the Docklands and West End when CrossRail will basically do what the Jubilee line will does in half the time, the fares from Abbey Wood on CrossRail from what I’ve seen doesn’t cost a fortune and much cheaper than South Eastern. They’ve halved the capacity to Greenwich (an important destination in its own right) from Woolwich and now over-bussing the Woolwich-NG corridor. Isn't the main point of the Erith extension to provide another link from Erith to Abbey Wood station, rather than end to end journeys? It's faster to use the 99 to Woolwich/Plumstead, then change for another bus to North Greenwich. The Erith extension has other non-Elizabeth Line related benefits which I mentioned in my previous post. I didn’t see you replied to my post the other day, sorry. You could have extended the 472 or better still split the 180 and have the outer section cover the NG-Erith bit, rather that than cut the frequency between Woolwich and Greenwich by half and over bussing the Woolwich to NG corridor, it’s basically robbing Peter to pay Paul, and in a age where we’re trying to encourage local bus travel rather than car travel, I don’t think it’s a good idea to cut frequencies along a busy corridor in half.
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Post by bus12451 on May 6, 2022 16:06:10 GMT
Isn't the main point of the Erith extension to provide another link from Erith to Abbey Wood station, rather than end to end journeys? It's faster to use the 99 to Woolwich/Plumstead, then change for another bus to North Greenwich. The Erith extension has other non-Elizabeth Line related benefits which I mentioned in my previous post. I didn’t see you replied to my post the other day, sorry. You could have extended the 472 or better still split the 180 and have the outer section cover the NG-Erith bit, rather that than cut the frequency between Woolwich and Greenwich by half and over bussing the Woolwich to NG corridor, it’s basically robbing Peter to pay Paul, and in a age where we’re trying to encourage local bus travel rather than car travel, I don’t think it’s a good idea to cut frequencies along a busy corridor in half. You could have extended the 472 from Abbey Wood Station but as I said, you miss out on the link between Erith, Belvedere Industrial Estate, and the schools on/near Yarnton Way. I don't think it's a good idea to cut frequencies either, I've always thought that the 180 should continue to Lewisham though I don't see anything wrong with the Erith extension, hence my suggestion that it could run between Lewisham and Erith. Otherwise a route split would seem appropriate.
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Post by vjaska on May 6, 2022 16:11:16 GMT
I didn’t see you replied to my post the other day, sorry. You could have extended the 472 or better still split the 180 and have the outer section cover the NG-Erith bit, rather that than cut the frequency between Woolwich and Greenwich by half and over bussing the Woolwich to NG corridor, it’s basically robbing Peter to pay Paul, and in a age where we’re trying to encourage local bus travel rather than car travel, I don’t think it’s a good idea to cut frequencies along a busy corridor in half. You could have extended the 472 from Abbey Wood Station but as I said, you miss out on the link between Erith, Belvedere Industrial Estate, and the schools on/near Yarnton Way. I don't think it's a good idea to cut frequencies either, I've always thought that the 180 should continue to Lewisham though I don't see anything wrong with the Erith extension, hence my suggestion that it could run between Lewisham and Erith. Otherwise a route split would seem appropriate. I think Lewisham to Erith would be a bit too long, it can take age on the current routing
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Post by route53 on May 6, 2022 16:30:55 GMT
You could have extended the 472 from Abbey Wood Station but as I said, you miss out on the link between Erith, Belvedere Industrial Estate, and the schools on/near Yarnton Way. I don't think it's a good idea to cut frequencies either, I've always thought that the 180 should continue to Lewisham though I don't see anything wrong with the Erith extension, hence my suggestion that it could run between Lewisham and Erith. Otherwise a route split would seem appropriate. I think Lewisham to Erith would be a bit too long, it can take age on the current routing The 89 does Lewisham to Slade Green albeit via Blackheath, Shooters Hill & Bexleyheath rather than via Greenwich, Charlton and Woolwich and that’s long enough already and can take ages especially with some traffic.
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Post by beaver14uk on May 6, 2022 20:43:53 GMT
Yes it will. quote author=" busman" source="/post/692241/thread" timestamp="1651665457"] beaver14uk Do you know if the 472 will serve the Princess Alice/Belmarsh stops along Western Way?[/quote]
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Post by beaver14uk on May 6, 2022 20:49:27 GMT
Nothing has been agreed for Greenwich Town Centre, that is nothing to do with the 129 change. It does seemike overkill keeping the 472 at its current frequency whilst adding more capacity along the Plumstead - NOG corridor via the 180. Hopefully there’s something going on behind the scenes that will see a rebalancing with extra capacity provided on the 177. Highly speculative, but given the 180 will be removed between East Greenwich and Greenwich Town Centre and the 129 is having a frequency cut, it perhaps points to something else happening to fill the reduced capacity in that area. That's exactly what I thought, is the sole reason for the 129/180 change the fact that the 129 will no longer be able to terminate in Greenwich when the road layout changes or is there some other reason? I'm not sure what the 286 will do but that's another subject.
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Post by twobellstogo on May 8, 2022 11:44:32 GMT
IBus displays at bus stops locally are now scrolling a message promoting the bus changes from Saturday.
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