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Post by evergreenadam on Apr 28, 2022 8:03:01 GMT
I’ll be honest I think the removal of too many buses down Oxford Street has clearly caused an exodus on other services because in some cases one might have changed buses but now clearly some custom had to be stolen by the overcrowded Underground system. Whilst there have been conscious efforts to remove buses from Oxford Street since 2004 & more passively from 2010 onwards I think now far too many services have been cut off that in some cases it’s probably dented their patronage pretty badly. The 73 is a testament to this, it was less than 10 years ago the service would have passenger numbers ranging around the 15m mark but sadly it’s now dropped to approx 8m of which whilst is still very strong it just shows how cutting such a busy service can really do damage overall & it’s a similar case with the 436 nowadays although it did not serve Oxford Street. The 23 is the same although I do wonder whether with Crossrail demand would have been reduced. The problem is with the 1992 restructure that too many buses were put into Oxford Street as lots of joint-operation cross-town routes got split and all met around that area. This didn't really change with the 2003 congestion-charge related changes either. I expect there will be a big restructure of the central area network in 2023/24 but I don't see many changes to the Oxford Street area, more reduction of duplication of services on corridors heading into town and duplication with the tube too. I actually think they've got the balance on Oxford Street just about right now - although I'd personally swap the 73 and 390 southern termini and cut the latter to 6bph reflecting the lower northern end demand - and likewise for the 12/453 - swapping northern end termini to reflect demand. Not really, not all cross town routes were split with an overlap on Oxford Street, for example the 6. Secondly prior to 1992 many cross town routes operated in overlapping sections, not something that is allowed today. The 1992 changes gave individual route numbers to each section. For example I remember my father working the 12 and 88 out of S prior to 1992 but never having to venture south of the Thames. I think the 1992 scheme was d*mn good, it also helped to keep the Routemaster services running for another 20 years. Unfortunately the more recent incremental changes have undermined the benefits of having a properly planned network, ironically just as hopper fare makes having the ability to complete a journey by making easy changes between routes more attractive from a customer point of view.
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 28, 2022 10:52:28 GMT
The problem is with the 1992 restructure that too many buses were put into Oxford Street as lots of joint-operation cross-town routes got split and all met around that area. This didn't really change with the 2003 congestion-charge related changes either. I expect there will be a big restructure of the central area network in 2023/24 but I don't see many changes to the Oxford Street area, more reduction of duplication of services on corridors heading into town and duplication with the tube too. I actually think they've got the balance on Oxford Street just about right now - although I'd personally swap the 73 and 390 southern termini and cut the latter to 6bph reflecting the lower northern end demand - and likewise for the 12/453 - swapping northern end termini to reflect demand. Not really, not all cross town routes were split with an overlap on Oxford Street, for example the 6. Secondly prior to 1992 many cross town routes operated in overlapping sections, not something that is allowed today. The 1992 changes gave individual route numbers to each section. For example I remember my father working the 12 and 88 out of S prior to 1992 but never having to venture south of the Thames. I think the 1992 scheme was d*mn good, it also helped to keep the Routemaster services running for another 20 years. Unfortunately the more recent incremental changes have undermined the benefits of having a properly planned network, ironically just as hopper fare makes having the ability to complete a journey by making easy changes between routes more attractive from a customer point of view. The 8 at one point was Bow to Edgware Road and City Thameslink to Willesdon.
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Post by redbus on Apr 28, 2022 12:06:08 GMT
I’ll be honest I think the removal of too many buses down Oxford Street has clearly caused an exodus on other services because in some cases one might have changed buses but now clearly some custom had to be stolen by the overcrowded Underground system. Whilst there have been conscious efforts to remove buses from Oxford Street since 2004 & more passively from 2010 onwards I think now far too many services have been cut off that in some cases it’s probably dented their patronage pretty badly. The 73 is a testament to this, it was less than 10 years ago the service would have passenger numbers ranging around the 15m mark but sadly it’s now dropped to approx 8m of which whilst is still very strong it just shows how cutting such a busy service can really do damage overall & it’s a similar case with the 436 nowadays although it did not serve Oxford Street. The 23 is the same although I do wonder whether with Crossrail demand would have been reduced. To this point, if you factor in the previous demand of routes 6, 13,15 and 23 having been removed from the same stretch of the West End in the last 10 years or so, you'd think the 139 would be bursting at the seams, but it's not. If the 94 is cut I can almost guarantee passengers won't easily just hop on the 139 like TFL wants them to, not least because the 94 and 139 will not have same stop interchange. They'll just leave the network altogether and find other means of travelling around London. I can't speak for post Covid, but certainly prior to Covid there were many times that the 139 was rammed full in the West End, leaving passengers behind at stops, often on Sundays. The true post Covid situation won't be known until tourism fully returns to whatever level it is going to, and that quite likely means at least summer 2023.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 28, 2022 12:12:10 GMT
I’ll be honest I think the removal of too many buses down Oxford Street has clearly caused an exodus on other services because in some cases one might have changed buses but now clearly some custom had to be stolen by the overcrowded Underground system. Whilst there have been conscious efforts to remove buses from Oxford Street since 2004 & more passively from 2010 onwards I think now far too many services have been cut off that in some cases it’s probably dented their patronage pretty badly. The 73 is a testament to this, it was less than 10 years ago the service would have passenger numbers ranging around the 15m mark but sadly it’s now dropped to approx 8m of which whilst is still very strong it just shows how cutting such a busy service can really do damage overall & it’s a similar case with the 436 nowadays although it did not serve Oxford Street. The 23 is the same although I do wonder whether with Crossrail demand would have been reduced. The problem is with the 1992 restructure that too many buses were put into Oxford Street as lots of joint-operation cross-town routes got split and all met around that area. This didn't really change with the 2003 congestion-charge related changes either. I expect there will be a big restructure of the central area network in 2023/24 but I don't see many changes to the Oxford Street area, more reduction of duplication of services on corridors heading into town and duplication with the tube too. I actually think they've got the balance on Oxford Street just about right now - although I'd personally swap the 73 and 390 southern termini and cut the latter to 6bph reflecting the lower northern end demand - and likewise for the 12/453 - swapping northern end termini to reflect demand. The balance on Oxford Street is poor currently - it’s geared towards buses mainly coming from various parts of North London. No route from South London or East London runs along Oxford Street nor will any from West London in due course. No wonder Oxford Street has continued to decline whilst people opt for local town centres or places like Westfield
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Post by greenboy on Apr 28, 2022 14:00:16 GMT
Not really, not all cross town routes were split with an overlap on Oxford Street, for example the 6. Secondly prior to 1992 many cross town routes operated in overlapping sections, not something that is allowed today. The 1992 changes gave individual route numbers to each section. For example I remember my father working the 12 and 88 out of S prior to 1992 but never having to venture south of the Thames. I think the 1992 scheme was d*mn good, it also helped to keep the Routemaster services running for another 20 years. Unfortunately the more recent incremental changes have undermined the benefits of having a properly planned network, ironically just as hopper fare makes having the ability to complete a journey by making easy changes between routes more attractive from a customer point of view. The 8 at one point was Bow to Edgware Road and City Thameslink to Willesdon. I don't recall the 8 ever being operated in overlapping sections.
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Post by redbus on Apr 28, 2022 14:35:45 GMT
The 8 at one point was Bow to Edgware Road and City Thameslink to Willesdon. I don't recall the 8 ever being operated in overlapping sections. My recollection was that it was in two overlapping sections prior to the Central Changes when the 98 route was introduced. I think it was only Mon-Sat daytime there were overlapping sections.
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Post by greenboy on Apr 28, 2022 14:49:51 GMT
I don't recall the 8 ever being operated in overlapping sections. My recollection was that it was in two overlapping sections prior to the Central Changes when the 98 route was introduced. I think it was only Mon-Sat daytime there were overlapping sections. Quite possibly, an AC allocation was reintroduced in late 1991 probably in readiness for the change. Prior to that it was all BW Monday to Saturday and WH on Sundays with OPO Titans.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 28, 2022 16:20:40 GMT
I don't recall the 8 ever being operated in overlapping sections. My recollection was that it was in two overlapping sections prior to the Central Changes when the 98 route was introduced. I think it was only Mon-Sat daytime there were overlapping sections. I don't know in regard to the 8 in particular but generally, overlapping sections were more for Mon-Sat operation such as the case on a few local routes in my area or nearby like the 2, 109 or the 36 which ran overlapping sections on Mon-Sat with the full route on Sundays
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 28, 2022 18:21:35 GMT
My recollection was that it was in two overlapping sections prior to the Central Changes when the 98 route was introduced. I think it was only Mon-Sat daytime there were overlapping sections. I don't know in regard to the 8 in particular but generally, overlapping sections were more for Mon-Sat operation such as the case on a few local routes in my area or nearby like the 2, 109 or the 36 which ran overlapping sections on Mon-Sat with the full route on Sundays Effectively allowing a saving to be made with a through service on Sundays. I never understood routes that had no through service like the 29 and 253.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 28, 2022 19:35:00 GMT
I don't know in regard to the 8 in particular but generally, overlapping sections were more for Mon-Sat operation such as the case on a few local routes in my area or nearby like the 2, 109 or the 36 which ran overlapping sections on Mon-Sat with the full route on Sundays Effectively allowing a saving to be made with a through service on Sundays. I never understood routes that had no through service like the 29 and 253. I can only presume that they felt it wasn’t achievable for a reliable through service on either route
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Post by aaron1 on Apr 28, 2022 19:41:34 GMT
Not really, not all cross town routes were split with an overlap on Oxford Street, for example the 6. Secondly prior to 1992 many cross town routes operated in overlapping sections, not something that is allowed today. The 1992 changes gave individual route numbers to each section. For example I remember my father working the 12 and 88 out of S prior to 1992 but never having to venture south of the Thames. I think the 1992 scheme was d*mn good, it also helped to keep the Routemaster services running for another 20 years. Unfortunately the more recent incremental changes have undermined the benefits of having a properly planned network, ironically just as hopper fare makes having the ability to complete a journey by making easy changes between routes more attractive from a customer point of view. The 8 at one point was Bow to Edgware Road and City Thameslink to Willesdon. Man love to done 8 will it went from Alperton to Bow Road and I do miss seeing 15 down Oxford Circus it was the only 2 routes that went from West to East the over was 23 when it went to Liverpool Street I always say that 15 would still be a more useful route it was still a Paddington to Cannington Town/East Ham route
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 28, 2022 19:45:00 GMT
Effectively allowing a saving to be made with a through service on Sundays. I never understood routes that had no through service like the 29 and 253. I can only presume that they felt it wasn’t achievable for a reliable through service on either route But I wonder why they didn't years before give them separate route numbers.
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 28, 2022 19:49:19 GMT
The 8 at one point was Bow to Edgware Road and City Thameslink to Willesdon. Man love to done 8 will it went from Alperton to Bow Road and I do miss seeing 15 down Oxford Circus it was the only 2 routes that went from West to East the over was 23 when it went to Liverpool Street I always say that 15 would still be a more useful route it was still a Paddington to Cannington Town/East Ham route I can't see the 15 returning to Paddington but I wouldn't entirely rule out it taking on all or some of the 115 especially now there is the 135 to Limehouse aswell. Could the 15 return to Canning Town with the 5 left between Canning Town and the 330 or a different route extended to East Ham.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 28, 2022 19:55:11 GMT
Man love to done 8 will it went from Alperton to Bow Road and I do miss seeing 15 down Oxford Circus it was the only 2 routes that went from West to East the over was 23 when it went to Liverpool Street I always say that 15 would still be a more useful route it was still a Paddington to Cannington Town/East Ham route I can't see the 15 returning to Paddington but I wouldn't entirely rule out it taking on all or some of the 115 especially now there is the 135 to Limehouse aswell. Could the 15 return to Canning Town with the 5 left between Canning Town and the 330 or a different route extended to East Ham. How could the 330 be extended when it goes the exact same way the 115 does?
Not sure on whether the 5 could be left on its own between Canning Town & East Ham.
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Post by WH241 on Apr 28, 2022 20:01:14 GMT
I can't see the 15 returning to Paddington but I wouldn't entirely rule out it taking on all or some of the 115 especially now there is the 135 to Limehouse aswell. Could the 15 return to Canning Town with the 5 left between Canning Town and the 330 or a different route extended to East Ham. How could the 330 be extended when it goes the exact same way the 115 does?
Not sure on whether the 5 could be left on its own between Canning Town & East Ham.
No way could the 5 cope alone between Canning Town and East Ham! East London is very bus dependent but not going over old ground again.
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