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Post by COBO on Nov 2, 2023 6:12:00 GMT
But if it’s clear for double deckers why not use double deckers? Don't forget it is reported that 30-35% of passengers won't (or can't due to mobility) go upstairs, and something like 12% won't even use seats with a single step. Stairs take up lot of seating area downstairs which is why many operators prefer not to run double decks except on busiest routes But what about 65 - 70 % who will go upstairs or people without mobility issues? Surely with another deck it would provide people with mobility issues more seats at the bottom as those without mobility issues would be upstairs.
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Post by LondonExplorer316 on Nov 2, 2023 7:12:56 GMT
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Post by WH241 on Nov 2, 2023 9:36:59 GMT
Don't forget it is reported that 30-35% of passengers won't (or can't due to mobility) go upstairs, and something like 12% won't even use seats with a single step. Stairs take up lot of seating area downstairs which is why many operators prefer not to run double decks except on busiest routes But what about 65 - 70 % who will go upstairs or people without mobility issues? Surely with another deck it would provide people with mobility issues more seats at the bottom as those without mobility issues would be upstairs. How do you know those without mobility issues will go upstairs? If you only going a few stops you might stay downstairs! I know I wouldn’t bother going upstairs for a short hop.
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Post by WH241 on Nov 2, 2023 9:38:43 GMT
Do you know observer buses at all times of the day? Or just a case of seeing the occasional busy bus? London has always had a mix of double and single decker buses so not sure why there is always an argument here to double deck all routes that can take them.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 2, 2023 17:13:25 GMT
But if it’s clear for double deckers why not use double deckers? Don't forget it is reported that 30-35% of passengers won't (or can't due to mobility) go upstairs, and something like 12% won't even use seats with a single step. Stairs take up lot of seating area downstairs which is why many operators prefer not to run double decks except on busiest routes I presume this is based on outside London which has a completely separate set of needs to London as in London, double deckers have generally been preferred on majority of routes where they can be handled bar a small selection hence why we've had many double decker conversions since the 90's. Whilst I've not seen any confirmation of whether the E5 can use deckers or not, London has always been successful double decker territory in comparison to longer heavy duty single deckers that have only been used sparsely due because the number of routes that can successfully use these whilst also have insurmountable restrictions like the 227 & 358 with Shortlands railway bridge being a very small pool. Even then, 60-65% have no issue with using upstairs so that in turn frees up space downstairs for those who have mobility issues. Rather, focus should be on making the downstairs as step free as possible rather than restricting where double deckers are used.
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Post by WH241 on Nov 2, 2023 17:44:27 GMT
Don't forget it is reported that 30-35% of passengers won't (or can't due to mobility) go upstairs, and something like 12% won't even use seats with a single step. Stairs take up lot of seating area downstairs which is why many operators prefer not to run double decks except on busiest routes I presume this is based on outside London which has a completely separate set of needs to London as in London, double deckers have generally been preferred on majority of routes where they can be handled bar a small selection hence why we've had many double decker conversions since the 90's. Whilst I've not seen any confirmation of whether the E5 can use deckers or not, London has always been successful double decker territory in comparison to longer heavy duty single deckers that have only been used sparsely due because the number of routes that can successfully use these whilst also have insurmountable restrictions like the 227 & 358 with Shortlands railway bridge being a very small pool. Even then, 60-65% have no issue with using upstairs so that in turn frees up space downstairs for those who have mobility issues. Rather, focus should be on making the downstairs as step free as possible rather than restricting where double deckers are used. You can't force the 60- 65 % to go upstairs so that don't always mean more space downstairs for those with mobility issues. When the 241 ran to Canning Town you would be lucky to get more than 2 or 3 passengers upstairs from Hermit Road to at least Freemasons Road / New Barn Street as the majority of passengers were local short hop trips. The same would probably happen on lots of other routes if they converted to double decker.
It does feel more like a forum knows best and all routes should be double decker regardless when ever this argument comes up about single decker routes.
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Post by southlondonbus on Nov 2, 2023 17:46:17 GMT
I presume this is based on outside London which has a completely separate set of needs to London as in London, double deckers have generally been preferred on majority of routes where they can be handled bar a small selection hence why we've had many double decker conversions since the 90's. Whilst I've not seen any confirmation of whether the E5 can use deckers or not, London has always been successful double decker territory in comparison to longer heavy duty single deckers that have only been used sparsely due because the number of routes that can successfully use these whilst also have insurmountable restrictions like the 227 & 358 with Shortlands railway bridge being a very small pool. Even then, 60-65% have no issue with using upstairs so that in turn frees up space downstairs for those who have mobility issues. Rather, focus should be on making the downstairs as step free as possible rather than restricting where double deckers are used. You can't force the 60- 65 % to go upstairs so that don't always mean more space downstairs for those with mobility issues. When the 241 ran to Canning Town you would be lucky to get more than 2 or 3 passengers upstairs from Hermit Road to at least Freemasons Road / New Barn Street as the majority of passengers were local short hop trips. The same would probably happen on lots of other routes if they converted to double decker.
It does feel more like a forum knows best and all routes should be double decker regardless when ever this argument comes up about single decker routes.
Even some mornings on the 93 from Stonecot Hill towards Morden there are often empty seats on the top deck when the bus goes past 'full up'.
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Post by WH241 on Nov 2, 2023 17:48:23 GMT
You can't force the 60- 65 % to go upstairs so that don't always mean more space downstairs for those with mobility issues. When the 241 ran to Canning Town you would be lucky to get more than 2 or 3 passengers upstairs from Hermit Road to at least Freemasons Road / New Barn Street as the majority of passengers were local short hop trips. The same would probably happen on lots of other routes if they converted to double decker.
It does feel more like a forum knows best and all routes should be double decker regardless when ever this argument comes up about single decker routes.
Even some mornings on the 93 from Stonecot Hill towards Morden there are often empty seats on the top deck when the bus goes past 'full up'. I used to use the 115 a lot before the pandemic and that was another route towards Canning Town that had an awful lot of passengers who would rather stand downstairs than go up.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2023 17:51:44 GMT
You can't force the 60- 65 % to go upstairs so that don't always mean more space downstairs for those with mobility issues. When the 241 ran to Canning Town you would be lucky to get more than 2 or 3 passengers upstairs from Hermit Road to at least Freemasons Road / New Barn Street as the majority of passengers were local short hop trips. The same would probably happen on lots of other routes if they converted to double decker.
It does feel more like a forum knows best and all routes should be double decker regardless when ever this argument comes up about single decker routes.
Even some mornings on the 93 from Stonecot Hill towards Morden there are often empty seats on the top deck when the bus goes past 'full up'. That's more likely due to people sitting in the aisle seat to prevent someone from sitting in the window seat or someone sitting in the window seat with their bags on the aisle seat, I see it way too often on 57 & 131. Also as soon as one person blocks the stairs, thats it, people don't go up. Saw this on the 270 last week when the stair entrance was blocked up and the bus was filled to the front door, I managed to get past and head up, to my surprise there were at least 10-15 seats.
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Post by twobellstogo on Nov 2, 2023 18:05:01 GMT
But if it’s clear for double deckers why not use double deckers? Don't forget it is reported that 30-35% of passengers won't (or can't due to mobility) go upstairs, and something like 12% won't even use seats with a single step. Stairs take up lot of seating area downstairs which is why many operators prefer not to run double decks except on busiest routes I think there are an awful lot of routes in outer London that might be better off with larger single deckers rather than double deckers. The accessibility reasons you mention, snowman, being probably the primary reason. I could reel you off a list of routes I think would fall into that category, but I don’t fancy an argument (again). 😂
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Post by TB123 on Nov 2, 2023 18:42:41 GMT
Don't forget it is reported that 30-35% of passengers won't (or can't due to mobility) go upstairs, and something like 12% won't even use seats with a single step. Stairs take up lot of seating area downstairs which is why many operators prefer not to run double decks except on busiest routes I think there are an awful lot of routes in outer London that might be better off with larger single deckers rather than double deckers. The accessibility reasons you mention, snowman, being probably the primary reason. I could reel you off a list of routes I think would fall into that category, but I don’t fancy an argument (again). 😂 411, W7, R9 to name but a few...
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Post by londonbuses on Nov 2, 2023 18:52:00 GMT
I think there are an awful lot of routes in outer London that might be better off with larger single deckers rather than double deckers. The accessibility reasons you mention, snowman, being probably the primary reason. I could reel you off a list of routes I think would fall into that category, but I don’t fancy an argument (again). 😂 411, W7, R9 to name but a few... The 411 is probably the perfect example of a route that can take deckers but should use long single deckers - in my opinion the 293 should be decked and the 411 should use its DXEs.
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Post by greenboy on Nov 2, 2023 18:56:58 GMT
You can't force the 60- 65 % to go upstairs so that don't always mean more space downstairs for those with mobility issues. When the 241 ran to Canning Town you would be lucky to get more than 2 or 3 passengers upstairs from Hermit Road to at least Freemasons Road / New Barn Street as the majority of passengers were local short hop trips. The same would probably happen on lots of other routes if they converted to double decker.
It does feel more like a forum knows best and all routes should be double decker regardless when ever this argument comes up about single decker routes.
Even some mornings on the 93 from Stonecot Hill towards Morden there are often empty seats on the top deck when the bus goes past 'full up'. I suppose most people want to be in prime position for a quick exit at Morden for the tube and so the lower deck fills up and those going further on who are willing to go upstairs can't physically get to the staircase. I've seen similar scenarios on many routes.
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Post by greenboy on Nov 2, 2023 19:01:02 GMT
Don't forget it is reported that 30-35% of passengers won't (or can't due to mobility) go upstairs, and something like 12% won't even use seats with a single step. Stairs take up lot of seating area downstairs which is why many operators prefer not to run double decks except on busiest routes I think there are an awful lot of routes in outer London that might be better off with larger single deckers rather than double deckers. The accessibility reasons you mention, snowman, being probably the primary reason. I could reel you off a list of routes I think would fall into that category, but I don’t fancy an argument (again). 😂 I agree completely and I'm surprised large capacity single deckers haven't been considered for the W7 which is effectively a 'Red Arrow' type service. Who wants to be last one off a full bus arriving at Finsbury Park in the morning rush?
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Post by matthieu1221 on Nov 2, 2023 19:26:42 GMT
I think there are an awful lot of routes in outer London that might be better off with larger single deckers rather than double deckers. The accessibility reasons you mention, snowman , being probably the primary reason. I could reel you off a list of routes I think would fall into that category, but I don’t fancy an argument (again). 😂 I agree completely and I'm surprised large capacity single deckers haven't been considered for the W7 which is effectively a 'Red Arrow' type service. Who wants to be last one off a full bus arriving at Finsbury Park in the morning rush? It's possibly the only advantage left on an LT -- not being stuck at the back of the upper deck.
I do wonder though, which routes would be possible with a 12m?
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