Bus/Tube cuts what would you do ?

[Deleted]

Jan 19, 2018 22:35:58 GMT twobellstogo said:

Forgive my ignorance, but would single deck conversions save money? Plenty of Outer London routes in particular may well be better suited to single deck operation.

I wonder if money could be saved by looking at Sunday conversions to single decker much like the late 90s / early 2000s.  Also some routes used to convert to single decker of an evening but think that was more about vandalism.

[sid]

Jan 19, 2018 22:44:00 GMT @dannyb said:

Jan 19, 2018 22:35:58 GMT twobellstogo said:

Forgive my ignorance, but would single deck conversions save money? Plenty of Outer London routes in particular may well be better suited to single deck operation.

I wonder if money could be saved by looking at Sunday conversions to single decker much like the late 90s / early 2000s.  Also some routes used to convert to single decker of an evening but think that was more about vandalism.

I'm not sure about Sunday's but certainly in the evening, the 412 would be one obvious candidate.

[joefrombow]

Jan 19, 2018 12:15:57 GMT snoggle said:

Here's my list of cuts in general terms.

1. Scrap the night tube / Overground. Waste of money. Abandon plans for any future expansion.

2. Every route at an evening frequency at x20 cut to x30.

3. Any route that runs half hourly or less M-S is cut completely on Sundays.

4. Thin out all early morning services every day of the week.

5. Bring forward to transition to evening frequencies to 1830/1900 rather than 2000.

6. Reduce off peak tube and Overground services on all lines.

7. Scrap 50% of the night bus network immediately.

8. Cancel all evening services that run x30 or less frequently.

9. No buses except the 51 and 208 in Orpington after 2000 nightly. Similar cuts to be made in Hillingdon, Bromley, Croydon, Bexley, Barnet, Enfield, Hounslow and Kingston.

10. Scrap all cross boundary services immediately.

11. Reduce shopping hours frequencies on Saturday.

That should save lots of money and ensure the world's largest political row about transport occurs.

Dr Snoggle Beeching 😯😂

To be fair I do agree with a lot of your points if your going to cut it cut it properly , The Night tube as good as it is realisticallyy doesn't need to be run when we have perfectly fine night buses and no tube overnight for 5 nights a week and also must cost a huge amount of money every weekend and I imagine running at a loss If possible , But no buses after 20:00 in the suburbs I say thats a bit early maybe "late evening" as they used to call it after 21:30/22:00 or keep a few journeys to connect with last train times .

As for 50% of the Night Bus network 😯 sounds harsh but in theory I suppose a few earlier and later journeys on a few routes and extensions of current Night routes to go the extra mile like the old N25 to Harold Hill or the N159 to New Addington that could work ,

As for scrapping cross boundary services I say ask the County council the route crosses borders with too subsidise aswell or even subsidise certain journeys I think that could work or return to charging higher fares outside the boundary , and as for Tube services I say on the Outer branches for example say the Central Line does Epping really need a train every 10 minutes ? cut it back to say 2 trains an hour with the majority running from Loughton or even Woodford during the off peaks , same as the Roding Valley section a 8 car train every 20 minutes carrying mainly fresh air is it really necessary ?that could be reduced to 2 trains an hour and no service after 22:00 . I understand the idea of higher frequencies gets people on board but clearly it isn't anymore also I'd introduce WiFi , USB sockets and route branding on main bus routes for example all Central London Routes and outer suburban main routes like the 5/86/EL1 but this would have to be at the operators expense as part of the tender the whole it works for one works for all thing just doesn't seem to work for me , oh and I'd revert the D8 and 108 and a Parry people Mover or a Class 153 for the Romford to Upminster line and make it a segregated Branch of the District Line and get rid of the recently introduced Sunday service 😊. .

[RT3062]

I would look at combined corridors like 217 317 231 perhaps being merged into one with 217A 217B i drive one of these routes sometimes so i used that example. No doubt there will be others 86/25 springs to mind. Would any savings be possible from this. I would also look at increasing fares slightly and maybe a cross boundary oyster fare if that is possible.

[snoggle]

Jan 20, 2018 5:55:32 GMT joefrombow said:

Dr Snoggle Beeching 😯😂

To be fair I do agree with a lot of your points if your going to cut it cut it properly

I appreciate some of what I suggested was rather extreme but if you're going to take cost out in a meaningful way then there has to be some pain. That means fewer vehicles and far fewer drivers / shifts. TfL are trying to have their cake and eat it. They are trying to preserve the network and simply use competitive pressure to take out cost. However that runs contrary to Mayoral policy on driver salaries. Do they really expect operators to sacrifice their profit margins and remain in the London market? At some point someone is going to say "had enough" and will shut up shop which will do nothing for competitive pricing on tenders. Much of what I suggested is not very different to what TfL themselves proposed a few years ago when one of the Board panels asked for options on cutting costs on the bus network. That involved the most marginal services being axed altogether and many off peak frequencies being axed.

content.tfl.gov.uk/FPC-20131127-Part-1-Item09-Achieving-VfM-in-the-Delivery-of-Londons-Bus-Service.pdf

[Deleted]

It should be remembered that most people don't just make a bus journey in one direction.

If you cut evening services you may well lose a daytime journey as well.

People returning from work in Central London don't arrive at their suburban station by 18:30.

You then get into a spiral of more cuts and less income.

[snoggle]

Jan 20, 2018 11:17:12 GMT @cl said:

It should be remembered that most people don't just make a bus journey in one direction.

If you cut evening services you may well lose a daytime journey as well.

People returning from work in Central London don't arrive at their suburban station by 18:30.

You then get into a spiral of more cuts and less income.

Excellent - more money to save. The counter argument is that people have to get to / from work and will have just have to lump less frequent services given the alternatives are not viable.

[kmkcheng]

Jan 20, 2018 11:17:12 GMT @cl said:

It should be remembered that most people don't just make a bus journey in one direction.

If you cut evening services you may well lose a daytime journey as well.

People returning from work in Central London don't arrive at their suburban station by 18:30.

You then get into a spiral of more cuts and less income.

Try telling that to bus companies outside of London!

[Deleted]

Focusing on Kingston as an example :

57 Withdraw night service but ensure last bus ex Kingston and Streatham leave at 0200 & first buses at 0500.
65 Withdraw night service to Chessington , remains 24/7 Kingston to Ealing
71 Later journeys added. Evening service reduced to every 15 mins.
85 Withdraw night service but ensure last buses leave Kingston and Putney at 0200 & first buses at 0500.
N87 Every 30 mins all week to Kingston, with extra buses at weekends between Wimbledon and Aldwych.
111 Withdraw night service beyond Hanworth. Ensure last bus leaves Kingston at 0200 at weekends. Ensure early am service from Kingston from 0430.
131 Reduce frequency to every 10 mins but keep School day extras .
213 Reduce frequency to every 10 mins but keep School day extras, evening service to every 15 mins.
216 Withdraw Ashford Hosp _ Stanies but divert to LHR T5 via Stanwell. Earlier jnys added.
281 Reverse frequency cut but withdraw night service between 0200 & 0500.
285 No change.
371 Convert to DD
406 & 418 Revert to x 30 mins each but ensure they leave each end at 15 mins intervals alternately.
411 Reduce off peak MonFri service to x30 mins , maintain x20 Sat shopping hr service , and hourly Sundays. Convert to DD.
465 Withdrawn south of Leatherhead.
467 Withdraw apart from school trips and hand to SCC to run.
481 Withdrawn on Sundays
K1 & K2 no changes.
K3 Esher School trips handed to SCC to tender.
K4 Mansfield Pk made a double run then extended to Copt Gilders Estate via Chessington North Stn.
X26 Stops added at Hanworth


If I was an entrepreneur I would create a new Airlink 727 from Kingston to Gatwick Airport limited stop via Tolworth, Ewell, Epsom , Reigate

[twobellstogo]

Well, rgd976, if you can do Kingston, I’ll do Bexley....

N21 withdrawn nightly Eltham Southend Crescent-Bexleyheath
51 no change
89/N89 withdrawn Bexleyheath Garage - Slade Green.
96 no change
99 daily evening (after 20:00) frequency down to 30 min
132 no change
160 withdrawn Eltham Church - Sidcup and extended to Welling Corner via current B16. Edgebury area left to the 162.
161 not Bexley, but related - withdrawn Woolwich - North Greenwich
177 no change
180 no change, assuming extension to Erith Quarry happens. Woolwich - North Greenwich via New Charlton left entirely to this route
229 no change
233 withdrawn Eltham Church - Eltham Station and diverted to Kidbrooke via current B16.
244 no double deck conversion and evening service thinned to x30 min after 20:00 daily
269 evening frequency down to x30 min daily
286 no change
301 withdrawn or not introduced between Thamesmead and Woolwich.
321 no change
401 no change
422 no change
428 withdrawn east of Dartford
469 withdrawn east of Belvedere Station
472 rerouted via or left to go via Nathan Way between Thamesmead and Plumstead
486 general daytime frequency reduction - no better than x10 min daily
492 withdrawn east of Dartford, and entirely after 20:00 and on Sundays.
B11 no change
B12 no change
B13 circle in New Eltham broken, withdrawn from southeast part of Footscray Road, revised to run opposite way around remainder of circle and extended to Eltham Station via 314. Also extended to Slade Green via current 89.
B14 withdrawn south of Crittals Corner and diverted to Tesco Foots Cray
B15 Sunday service withdrawn
B16 completely withdrawn

Not that any of that is good...

[snoggle]

Jan 20, 2018 20:37:21 GMT twobellstogo said:

Well, rgd976, if you can do Kingston, I’ll do Bexley....

N21 withdrawn nightly Eltham Southend Crescent-Bexleyheath
51 no change
89/N89 withdrawn Bexleyheath Garage - Slade Green.
96 no change
99 daily evening (after 20:00) frequency down to 30 min
132 no change
160 withdrawn Eltham Church - Sidcup and extended to Welling Corner via current B16. Edgebury area left to the 162.
161 not Bexley, but related - withdrawn Woolwich - North Greenwich
177 no change
180 no change, assuming extension to Erith Quarry happens. Woolwich - North Greenwich via New Charlton left entirely to this route
229 no change
233 withdrawn Eltham Church - Eltham Station and diverted to Kidbrooke via current B16.
244 no double deck conversion and evening service thinned to x30 min after 20:00 daily
269 evening frequency down to x30 min daily
301 withdrawn or not introduced between Thamesmead and Woolwich.
401 no change
422 no change
428 withdrawn east of Dartford
469 withdrawn east of Belvedere Station
472 rerouted via or left to go via Nathan Way between Thamesmead and Plumstead
492 withdrawn east of Dartford, and entirely after 20:00 and on Sundays.
B11 no change
B12 no change
B13 circle in New Eltham broken, withdrawn from southeast part of Footscray Road, revised to run opposite way around remainder of circle and extended to Eltham Station via 314. Also extended to Slade Green via current 89.
B14 withdrawn south of Crittals Corner and diverted to Tesco Foots Cray
B15 Sunday service withdrawn
B16 completely withdrawn

Not that any of that is good...

Goodness me! Look at all that juicy meat left to slash from the 51, 96, 177, 229, 472, 89, 401, 422 and 132. Plenty of scope to hack out a few bph on those and you can kill the 96 east of Dartford after 2100. Surely you can axe the B12 on Sundays too?

[Deleted]

I'll take the liberty of doing the Greenwich ones:

51 - Evening frequency reduced to every 30 minutes
53** - Rerouted between Woolwich Arsenal and Plumstead Station to run via Plumstead Road
54 - Alternate buses withdrawn between Blackheath Royal Standard and Woolwich + Alternate buses withdrawn between Beckenham Junction and Elmers End*****
89 - Alternate buses withdrawn between Bexleyheath Bus Garage and Slade Green
96 - Withdrawn between Darent Valley Hospital and Bluewater after 2100
99 - Evening frequency reduced to every 30 minutes
108* - Rerouted between Blackwall Tunnel and Bow Roundabout via A12 + 108D withdrawn
122 - Evening frequency reduced to every 30 minutes
124 - No change
126 - No change
129*** - Extended from Lewisham Station to Lower Sydenham, Sainsbury's via Route 181
132 - Evening frequency reduced to every 20 minutes
160 - Withdrawn between Chiselhurst War Memorial and Sidcup Station + Single Decked
161 - Withdrawn between East Greenwich and North Greenwich and extended to Greenwich, Cutty Sark (assuming Route 180 changes go ahead) + Evening frequency reduced to every 20 minutes
162 - No change
177 - Withdrawn between Peckham and New Cross Gate
178 - Evening frequency reduced to every 30 minutes
180 - Withdrawn between Erith Quarry and Erith Town Centre (assuming changes go ahead) + Evening frequency reduced to every 20 minutes
181*** - Withdrawn throughout
188 - Withdrawn between Aldwych and Russell Square + Night frequency reduced to every 30 minutes
202 - Withdrawn between Lower Sydenham, Sainsbury's and Crystal Palace + Evening frequency reduced to every 30 minutes
229 - Withdrawn between Sidcup Station and Queen Mary's Hospital
233 - Withdrawn between New Eltham and Eltham Station
244**** - Withdrawn between Thamesmead and Abbey Wood + Evening Frequency reduced to every 30 minutes
286 - Extended to Foots Cray, Crittalls Corner (first stop + last stop + stand for two buses on the east side of A20, in disused bus stop lay-bay, north of Crittalls Corner roundabout) + Double Decked
291 - Withdrawn between Queen Elizabeth Hospital and Woolwich
301**** - Withdrawn between Abbey Wood and Woolwich
314 - No change
321 - Withdrawn between New Cross Gate and Lewisham Station
352*** - Extended from Lower Sydenham, Sainsbury's to Grove Park via Route 181
380** - Withdrawn between Plumstead Bus Garage and Belmash and rerouted to Woolwich Royal Arsenal via Duke of Wellington Avenue (stand on Arsenal Way) + Rerouted between Woolwich Arsenal Station and Plumstead Bus Garage via Route 53 + Evening Frequency reduced to every 30 minutes
386 - Withdrawn between Greenwich, Cutty Sark and Blackheath Village + Evening Frequency reduced to every 30 minutes
401 - Withdrawn between Thamesmead and Belvedere Station (assuming Route 301 is introduced) + Evening frequency reduced to every 30 minutes + Single Decked
422 - No change
428 - Withdrawn between Dartford, Home Gardens and Bluewater
469 - Rerouted between Woolwich and Queen Elizabeth Hospital via Route 291 + Withdrawn between Belvedere Station and Erith and extended to Belvedere Industrial Area via Picardy Manorway, Anderson Way, Mulberry Way, Fishers Way and Crabtree Manorway North + Evening Frequency reduced to every 30 minutes
472**** - Rerouted via Nathan Way (assuming changes go ahead) + Short Journeys withdrawn between Charlton Station and North Greenwich + Night Frequency reduced to every 30 minutes
486 - Withdrawn between Welling Station (Central Avenue Stand) and Bexleyheath Shopping Centre
601 - 2 Buses each day in each direction withdrawn between Beths Grammar School (Bexley) and Wilmington Schools (Dartford Heath Schools) + Existing Short Journey in the afternoon withdrawn between Beths Grammar School (Bexley) and Thamesmead + Separate Stand erected outside 2 Hartford Road for 1 bus on Route 601 to reduce overcrowding on Bourne Road
602 - Extended from Townley Grammar School to Cleeve Park School + 1 extra bus each day in each direction introduced to only run between Townley Grammar School and Thamesmead
621 - No change
624 - No change
658 - No change
660 - No change
669 - Withdrawn throughout
B11 - No change (assuming changes go ahead)
B12 - Joydens Wood loop withdrawn from Dartford Road, Baldwyn's Park + Extended from Dartford Road, Baldwyn's Road to Wilmington Schools via Baldwyn's Park, Tile Kiln Lane, Summerhouse Drive, Birchwood Road, Leyton Cross Road, Oakfield Lane, Common Lane and Parsons Lane + Saturday frequency reduced to every 30 mins and Sunday frequency reduced to every 60 mins.
B15 - No change
B16 - No change
D8* - Rerouted between All Saints and Bow Roundabout via Chrisp Street, Violet Road and Campbell Road
N1 - No change
N21 - Withdrawn between Eltham High Street and Bexleyheath Shopping Centre

* Route 108 and D8 changes linked
** Route 53 and 380 changes linked
*** Route 129, 181 and 352 changes linked
**** Route 244, 301 and 472 changes linked
***** Route 54 to run in two sections. Half of the buses run from Woolwich to Beckenham Junction with the other half running from Blackheath, Royal Standard to Elmers End

Certainly nothing I'd want to happen though (other than the 161 changes which should provide the capacity needed between Woolwich and Greenwich following the 180 changes) and 286 changes which should allow double deckers to run with buses missing the QMH loop, providing the extra capacity needed.


If there are any routes I've missed, please let me know.

[Lewis J.N.]

I think it'd be half an idea to look at running services more frequently in the areas that need them, it'd totally rework the stand setups but make the room where necessary. Many suburban routes particularly were 'simplified' a decade or two ago but it'd be far more effective to curtail, say, 50% of buses 70% of the way along the route if that's what passenger numbers show. It happens on the 38, 221 and a few night routes; why not anywhere else?
Also, the 398 carries fresh air after 8-9pm, that can easily be cut back. I like the idea of using single deckers on night services / Sunday services too.

[COBO]

283 - Monday to Saturday daytime frequency cut from every 8 mins to every 12 mins now that it's been cut to Hammersmith.

[john]

Jan 19, 2018 16:56:11 GMT snoggle said:

Jan 19, 2018 14:07:47 GMT stuckonthe486 said:

Abandon the fare freeze and increase Tube fares in zone 1, with smaller increases in zones 2 and 3. (Keep the bus fare freeze and continue to freeze fares in zones 4-6.)

And increase the congestion charge, removing the exemption for PHVs, and extend its operating hours (including weekends).

Oh if we're doing this then I would abandon the fares freeze entirely. I'd also abandon the unlimited hopper facility that's due to start soon.

I would bring back the Z2-6 and Z2-9 daily cap and I'd also make One Day travelcards and caps more affordable. I'd also further fine tune and improve the availability of non Z1 "pink validator" routes on the tube and rail network to try to take pressure off Zone 1 rail/tube services.

I would also like to trial an off peak only Travelcard season ticket to see whether it was generative or abstractive. Depending on the result I'd introduce or cancel it as appropriate.

I'd also conduct a small trial of touch in and touch out smart ticketing on buses - ideally in a reasonably confined area with a mix of services. Somewhere like Sutton or Harrow where there are trunk and local services. This would be to evaluate whether a move to graduated fares on buses was viable. This is deal with the inevitable issue of the flat fare being too expensive for short hop trips.

I do think the fares freeze is a ridiculously blunt tool to try to deliver "affordable fares".

I actually like this idea to a point about graduated fares. If you have the maximum set at £2, you coukd increase it that way. At least it would still be a reasonably priced fare in comparison to outside London.