|
|
Post by snoggle on Jan 20, 2018 23:15:45 GMT
I actually like this idea to a point about graduated fares. If you have the maximum set at £2, you coukd increase it that way. At least it would still be a reasonably priced fare in comparison to outside London. There is obviously a cost with the extra kit on thousands of vehicles and it would be complex on some routes. However there are a number of upsides IMO. 1. You get flexibility around charging which may help resolve issues on some routes. You can also argue a graduated farescale is more economically rational but not everyone will agree with that. 2. TfL will have to do something about the flat fare at some point. It overprices short hops (most bus rides are short) and underprices longer distance trips. Inflation and cost pressures will create the need for bus fares to rise and charging people £2 or £2.20 for a short hop is likely to be offputting for a significant number of people. 3. There is the potential for graduated capping or even clever Bus Pass pricing that's based on actual usage. 4. There would be more accurate journey information which, to be fair, could be a double edged sword as it would give TfL a lot of very powerful data to help fine tune service provision across the network. Would get TfL away from having to impute where people alight from buses. However if it meant the right capacity was put in the right places and wasteful over capacity was removed it would improve the economics of the network. 5. With some clever computing power you could tell people if a full bus was due to turn up at stops. You could also provide accurate info to drivers and controllers about vehicle loadings although obviously the driver can see what's happening even if they can't be expected to count the number of people on board. |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Jan 20, 2018 23:16:07 GMT
I think it'd be half an idea to look at running services more frequently in the areas that need them, it'd totally rework the stand setups but make the room where necessary. Many suburban routes particularly were 'simplified' a decade or two ago but it'd be far more effective to curtail, say, 50% of buses 70% of the way along the route if that's what passenger numbers show. It happens on the 38, 221 and a few night routes; why not anywhere else? Also, the 398 carries fresh air after 8-9pm, that can easily be cut back. I like the idea of using single deckers on night services / Sunday services too. The problem with using single deckers on evenings or Sundays is you may have to end up running a route from a garage further away as not every garage has single deckers to begin with. Even worse when it comes Sundays, they are far more intensive on the TfL network than in the 90’s where many routes had single deckers - for me personally, it’s a recipe for disaster. |
|
|
|
Post by twobellstogo on Jan 20, 2018 23:24:26 GMT
Goodness me! Look at all that juicy meat left to slash from the 51, 96, 177, 229, 472, 89, 401, 422 and 132. Plenty of scope to hack out a few bph on those and you can kill the 96 east of Dartford after 2100. Surely you can axe the B12 on Sundays too? I know your tongue was probably to an extent in your cheek, snoggle 😂 but a degree of cuteness went into those changes : plenty of extensions but you’re hardly likely to ever want to go that way but it wouldn’t stop TfL eulogising over (e.g.) your brand new link from Slade Green to Eltham. No matter that you’ve lost the d/d x12 min 89 for a tiny MMC at a vastly inferior frequency and no matter that it goes all round the houses to get to Eltham.... |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Jan 20, 2018 23:27:17 GMT
Goodness me! Look at all that juicy meat left to slash from the 51, 96, 177, 229, 472, 89, 401, 422 and 132. Plenty of scope to hack out a few bph on those and you can kill the 96 east of Dartford after 2100. Surely you can axe the B12 on Sundays too? I know your tongue was probably to an extent in your cheek, snoggle 😂 but a degree of cuteness went into those changes : plenty of extensions but you’re hardly likely to ever want to go that way but it wouldn’t stop TfL eulogising over (e.g.) your brand new link from Slade Green to Eltham. No matter that you’ve lost the d/d x12 min 89 for a tiny MMC at a vastly inferior frequency and no matter that it goes all round the houses to get to Eltham.... Only in my cheek to a tiny extent. I appreciate there was effort put into devising the changes but there is still flab to take out on some of those routes. |
|
|
|
Post by twobellstogo on Jan 20, 2018 23:30:28 GMT
I think it'd be half an idea to look at running services more frequently in the areas that need them, it'd totally rework the stand setups but make the room where necessary. Many suburban routes particularly were 'simplified' a decade or two ago but it'd be far more effective to curtail, say, 50% of buses 70% of the way along the route if that's what passenger numbers show. It happens on the 38, 221 and a few night routes; why not anywhere else? Also, the 398 carries fresh air after 8-9pm, that can easily be cut back. I like the idea of using single deckers on night services / Sunday services too. The problem with using single deckers on evenings or Sundays is you may have to end up running a route from a garage further away as not every garage has single deckers to begin with. Even worse when it comes Sundays, they are far more intensive on the TfL network than in the 90’s where many routes had single deckers - for me personally, it’s a recipe for disaster. There are in my opinion several suburban services especially where single decks may actually offer a more attractive service - more accessible seats being up there as a reason. In my home area, I’d possibly nominate as potential conversions to s/d the 61, 99, 160, 401 |
|
|
|
Post by sid on Jan 21, 2018 0:09:35 GMT
The problem with using single deckers on evenings or Sundays is you may have to end up running a route from a garage further away as not every garage has single deckers to begin with. Even worse when it comes Sundays, they are far more intensive on the TfL network than in the 90’s where many routes had single deckers - for me personally, it’s a recipe for disaster. There are in my opinion several suburban services especially where single decks may actually offer a more attractive service - more accessible seats being up there as a reason. In my home area, I’d possibly nominate as potential conversions to s/d the 61, 99, 160, 401 The problem is routes like these wouldn't cope with school time loadings and more buses would need to be run, indeed the 99 was extended to Bexleyheath to replace that part of the 469 because single deckers couldn't cope. Unless free travel is abolished, something that has been discussed previously, it's going to be necessary to provide the capacity to cope with the surges in demand. |
|
|
|
Post by ThinLizzy on Jan 21, 2018 0:15:37 GMT
I'll have a proper think about full local area changes, but the first thing Tfl could do is:
Stop operators padding their timetables out with too much running time, then have buses wait at stops mid-route for 3/4 minutes to help "maintain headway" to ensure they get all their money from TfL.
Not mentioning any companies in particular, but the journey times and subsequent PVRs could be cut on the 5, EL2, EL3 (and from what others have said) 176 and 188, by at least 1 bus each.
That's at least 6 buses worth of money saved
|
|
|
|
Post by sid on Jan 21, 2018 0:49:52 GMT
I'll have a proper think about full local area changes, but the first thing Tfl could do is: Stop operators padding their timetables out with too much running time, then have buses wait at stops mid-route for 3/4 minutes to help "maintain headway" to ensure they get all their money from TfL. Not mentioning any companies in particular, but the journey times and subsequent PVRs could be cut on the 5, EL2, EL3 (and from what others have said) 176 and 188, by at least 1 bus each. That's at least 6 buses worth of money saved I certainly agree about the padding out of timetables, I was talking to someone this evening who without any prompting from me said how he rarely uses buses anymore as they are "just too d*mn slow, either crawling along at a snails pace holding other traffic up or stopping at every single bus stop and sitting there for ages". I suspect a lot of people would express similar sentiments? |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Jan 21, 2018 1:21:40 GMT
The problem with using single deckers on evenings or Sundays is you may have to end up running a route from a garage further away as not every garage has single deckers to begin with. Even worse when it comes Sundays, they are far more intensive on the TfL network than in the 90’s where many routes had single deckers - for me personally, it’s a recipe for disaster. There are in my opinion several suburban services especially where single decks may actually offer a more attractive service - more accessible seats being up there as a reason. In my home area, I’d possibly nominate as potential conversions to s/d the 61, 99, 160, 401 Do you mean a full conversion at all times or just evenings & Sundays because if it's the former, I'd shudder at the thought of all four going to full time single decker operation having used all these routes during school times in the past myself though admittedly, probably not as often as yourself  |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Jan 21, 2018 1:24:40 GMT
I'll have a proper think about full local area changes, but the first thing Tfl could do is: Stop operators padding their timetables out with too much running time, then have buses wait at stops mid-route for 3/4 minutes to help "maintain headway" to ensure they get all their money from TfL. Not mentioning any companies in particular, but the journey times and subsequent PVRs could be cut on the 5, EL2, EL3 (and from what others have said) 176 and 188, by at least 1 bus each. That's at least 6 buses worth of money saved I certainly agree about the padding out of timetables, I was talking to someone this evening who without any prompting from me said how he rarely uses buses anymore as they are "just too d*mn slow, either crawling along at a snails pace holding other traffic up or stopping at every single bus stop and sitting there for ages". I suspect a lot of people would express similar sentiments? Though I agree with that it is certainly a contributing factor, we also have to remember that too much running time isn't the only contributing factor. Congestion also plays it part and I know I sound like a broken record on this  but if congestion was significantly reduced, you would start seeing people return to the bus network as well. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 7:56:33 GMT
There are in my opinion several suburban services especially where single decks may actually offer a more attractive service - more accessible seats being up there as a reason. In my home area, I’d possibly nominate as potential conversions to s/d the 61, 99, 160, 401 The problem is routes like these wouldn't cope with school time loadings and more buses would need to be run, indeed the 99 was extended to Bexleyheath to replace that part of the 469 because single deckers couldn't cope. Unless free travel is abolished, something that has been discussed previously, it's going to be necessary to provide the capacity to cope with the surges in demand. There are alternatives during school tines for some of those routes, e.g. the 601 for the 401, the 660 for the 160 etc. |
|
|
|
Post by sid on Jan 21, 2018 8:26:38 GMT
I certainly agree about the padding out of timetables, I was talking to someone this evening who without any prompting from me said how he rarely uses buses anymore as they are "just too d*mn slow, either crawling along at a snails pace holding other traffic up or stopping at every single bus stop and sitting there for ages". I suspect a lot of people would express similar sentiments? Though I agree with that it is certainly a contributing factor, we also have to remember that too much running time isn't the only contributing factor. Congestion also plays it part and I know I sound like a broken record on this but if congestion was significantly reduced, you would start seeing people return to the bus network as well. I very much agree about congestion but what infuriates people is buses dawdling along near empty roads and sitting at bus stops for ages. |
|
|
|
Post by john on Jan 21, 2018 10:36:55 GMT
Though I agree with that it is certainly a contributing factor, we also have to remember that too much running time isn't the only contributing factor. Congestion also plays it part and I know I sound like a broken record on this but if congestion was significantly reduced, you would start seeing people return to the bus network as well. I very much agree about congestion but what infuriates people is buses dawdling along near empty roads and sitting at bus stops for ages. It annoys drivers too, we would much rather be able to get on with the job at full pace than crawl along doing 20mph. I actually had this once on the 287 late at night. I'm crawling along Ripple Road going to Rainham doing about 20mph. I've stopped at 2 stops to waste a little time and a guy comes up to me and asks can I not go any faster even though I got times to keep. I politely said no and showed him my MDT which showed my time as +0.20, bang on time in my eyes. I also knew if I was any earlier, I'd end up about 3/4 early once I got off the A13 (I refuse to drive slower than 40mph on that stretch, early or late). Now if 2 or 3 minutes was lost, I'd be able to move it abit more. Of course I also know why the 287 as abit more time of an evening along thay stretch, just in case the A13 is closed |
|
|
|
Post by twobellstogo on Jan 21, 2018 10:38:47 GMT
There are in my opinion several suburban services especially where single decks may actually offer a more attractive service - more accessible seats being up there as a reason. In my home area, I’d possibly nominate as potential conversions to s/d the 61, 99, 160, 401 Do you mean a full conversion at all times or just evenings & Sundays because if it's the former, I'd shudder at the thought of all four going to full time single decker operation having used all these routes during school times in the past myself though admittedly, probably not as often as yourself The former I'm afraid - though the 401 would definitely need a school double deck element. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 10:46:05 GMT
Do you mean a full conversion at all times or just evenings & Sundays because if it's the former, I'd shudder at the thought of all four going to full time single decker operation having used all these routes during school times in the past myself though admittedly, probably not as often as yourself The former I'm afraid - though the 401 would definitely need a school double deck element. It does have the 601. |
|
but if congestion was significantly reduced, you would start seeing people return to the bus network as well.