Bus/Tube cuts what would you do ?

[joefrombow]

Read a post earlier on the 166 and it got me thinking , if you were in charge of Tfl what Bus routes would you cut or get rid of ? or even Tube or Overground lines , Savings have to be made what routes would you give the chop or have a restricted service on and what ways do you think Tfl could increase profit ?

[sid]

Jan 19, 2018 6:13:48 GMT joefrombow said:

Read a post earlier on the 166 and it got me thinking , if you were in charge of Tfl what Bus routes would you cut or get rid of ? or even Tube or Overground lines , Savings have to be made what routes would you give the chop or have a restricted service on and what ways do you think Tfl could increase profit ?

I've suggest previously reducing the 466 to x20 minutes daytime and x30 minutes evening. Both outer ends are dead and capacity can be maintained on the middle section by extending the 197 to South Croydon Garage and the 312 to Purley.

The 468 could probably be withdrawn between Camberwell Green and Elephant & Castle? Plenty of alternative routes along Walworth Road.

The 349 has been suggested previously for the axe but some people got upset about that, alternatively the 149 or 259 could be withdrawn between Tottenham and Edmonton Green.

The 21 could be withdrawn in the evening between Moorgate and Newington Green, the 141 is surely adequate?

The 242 between Liverpool Street and St Pauls?

Some night services could be bought forward to start in the evening, 65 to Chessington in place of the 71 and 137 to Crystal Palace in place of the 417 for example.

But most importantly I'd be looking into why people are abandoning bus travel and looking at ways of luring them back.

[john]

I've often wondered about this myself. Some routes do just seem to be a waste of resources but in reality, whatever decision I'd make may not sit well with someone else. One thing I'd do is get rid if this standardisation of frequencies. I don't see why a 5 needs to run every 6 minutes at 1pm and yet the same at 6pm. It's called peak hours for a reason, make the adjustments and savings that way!!

[M1104]

Withdraw P13 between New Cross Gate and Peckham

Absorb the N109 and 'night' 159 into one route

[snoggle]

Jan 19, 2018 9:41:35 GMT john said:

I've often wondered about this myself. Some routes do just seem to be a waste of resources but in reality, whatever decision I'd make may not sit well with someone else. One thing I'd do is get rid if this standardisation of frequencies. I don't see why a 5 needs to run every 6 minutes at 1pm and yet the same at 6pm. It's called peak hours for a reason, make the adjustments and savings that way!!

The reason for that is pretty simple. The previous valid methodology was that reducing wait time, by improving frequencies, typically generated large increases in ridership and patronage. Also having consistent timetables was considered to help "marginal" passengers, those who may be unfamiliar with timetables etc, feel comfortable with the network. Depending on the route it probably made far more sense to have vehicles and drivers on the road bringing in valuable additional off peak revenue than sitting in garages doing nothing. Happy to be contradicted but I suspect that having a lot of split shifts would not be popular with drivers thus making recruitment marginally more difficult.

The world has now moved on somewhat. There are alternatives to buses that some people will use - the dreaded Uber and their ilk. Some people have swapped to cycling - more so in inner London. The use of real time info and apps means people can tailor a number of their trips so that stop wait time is minimised meaning the value of low wait times through frequency improvements is rather reduced. I am sure this is partly why TfL are reducing so many services alongside the patronage declines we've seen since 2014. The real problem with the apparent abandonment of the "higher frequency is good" methodology is that the prospects for any new services or substantial improvements in the future are much reduced. The only thing that will drive improvements is new developments and that's it. My sense of things is that TfL have not really got a handle on what the future looks like if their once reliable methodology has been undermined by new technology.

[snoggle]

Here's my list of cuts in general terms.

1. Scrap the night tube / Overground. Waste of money. Abandon plans for any future expansion.

2. Every route at an evening frequency at x20 cut to x30.

3. Any route that runs half hourly or less M-S is cut completely on Sundays.

4. Thin out all early morning services every day of the week.

5. Bring forward to transition to evening frequencies to 1830/1900 rather than 2000.

6. Reduce off peak tube and Overground services on all lines.

7. Scrap 50% of the night bus network immediately.

8. Cancel all evening services that run x30 or less frequently.

9. No buses except the 51 and 208 in Orpington after 2000 nightly. Similar cuts to be made in Hillingdon, Bromley, Croydon, Bexley, Barnet, Enfield, Hounslow and Kingston.

10. Scrap all cross boundary services immediately.

11. Reduce shopping hours frequencies on Saturday.

That should save lots of money and ensure the world's largest political row about transport occurs.

[stuckonthe486]

Abandon the fare freeze and increase Tube fares in zone 1, with smaller increases in zones 2 and 3. (Keep the bus fare freeze and continue to freeze fares in zones 4-6.)

And increase the congestion charge, removing the exemption for PHVs, and extend its operating hours (including weekends).

[Deleted]

I think the biggest reason for cuts, is technology. People have not only a greater choice by what transport medium they use, but can see when it arrives locally. The days of needing to wait at the stops for ages not knowing when or if a bus will come is over.

I don’t leave the house until my bus is five minutes away. I don’t even need to go to TfL to see this, google maps has it ready. The actual frequency, once very important knowledge, is now irrelevant... unless the bus is full and I must wait for another, unlikely since I refuse to travel in the peaks. I’m sure I’m not the only one who has benefited from this system and I see it becoming a trend, if it isn’t already.

[vjaska]

Jan 19, 2018 14:07:47 GMT stuckonthe486 said:

Abandon the fare freeze and increase Tube fares in zone 1, with smaller increases in zones 2 and 3. (Keep the bus fare freeze and continue to freeze fares in zones 4-6.)

And increase the congestion charge, removing the exemption for PHVs, and extend its operating hours (including weekends).

I’d go further and remove the fare freeze for buses as well but even then, if the above were all proposed, I’d happily support it anyway.

[snoggle]

Jan 19, 2018 15:15:55 GMT @metroman said:

I think the biggest reason for cuts, is technology. People have not only a greater choice by what transport medium they use, but can see when it arrives locally. The days of needing to wait at the stops for ages not knowing when or if a bus will come is over.

I don’t leave the house until my bus is five minutes away. I don’t even need to go to TfL to see this, google maps has it ready. The actual frequency, once very important knowledge, is now irrelevant... unless the bus is full and I must wait for another, unlikely since I refuse to travel in the peaks. I’m sure I’m not the only one who has benefited from this system and I see it becoming a trend, if it isn’t already.

I don't disagree with the above but it is not a blanket provision for everyone. If people are doing journeys from home to some other building then yes they can check and minimise their wait time. However if they need to change buses the wait time can be unpredictable again. On a return trip people may be flexible in the arrangements to be able to wait in a building and just dash to the bus stop. However at least 50% of my trips involve me turning up at random at a stop and yes I can check when the bus is due but the waiting time is the waiting time. I may be lucky and see a bus is on its way via LVF or an app and be able to dash to the stop but that's luck more than planning on my part. A fair part of the population don't have access to real time info so they also turn up and wait unless they know the times a lower frequency service is due.

If TfL are abandoning their view on higher frequencies being a bonus because of real time info reducing wait times then it's slightly foolish given that there is not 100% use of such real time info and therefore people will be disadvantaged by less frequent services.

[danorak]

Entirely off the top of my head...

Increase the congestion charge.
Extend bus priorities/parking restrictions to operate on Sundays.
Charge annually for the non statutory over 60s pass (but maintain entitlements at retirement age)
Allow short workings where appropriate: buses get turned short now, so why is it a problem?
Move away from 24 hour routes to a night bus network (eg the old N159, or linking the 53/453 overnight) & perhaps start them earlier
Sell guided tours of the fabled Bus Stop M

[kmkcheng]

Jan 19, 2018 14:07:47 GMT stuckonthe486 said:

Abandon the fare freeze and increase Tube fares in zone 1, with smaller increases in zones 2 and 3. (Keep the bus fare freeze and continue to freeze fares in zones 4-6.)

And increase the congestion charge, removing the exemption for PHVs, and extend its operating hours (including weekends).

I would happily pay that little bit more for my fare if it meant cuts were kept to a minimum

[snoggle]

Jan 19, 2018 14:07:47 GMT stuckonthe486 said:

Abandon the fare freeze and increase Tube fares in zone 1, with smaller increases in zones 2 and 3. (Keep the bus fare freeze and continue to freeze fares in zones 4-6.)

And increase the congestion charge, removing the exemption for PHVs, and extend its operating hours (including weekends).

Oh if we're doing this then I would abandon the fares freeze entirely. I'd also abandon the unlimited hopper facility that's due to start soon.

I would bring back the Z2-6 and Z2-9 daily cap and I'd also make One Day travelcards and caps more affordable. I'd also further fine tune and improve the availability of non Z1 "pink validator" routes on the tube and rail network to try to take pressure off Zone 1 rail/tube services.

I would also like to trial an off peak only Travelcard season ticket to see whether it was generative or abstractive. Depending on the result I'd introduce or cancel it as appropriate.

I'd also conduct a small trial of touch in and touch out smart ticketing on buses - ideally in a reasonably confined area with a mix of services. Somewhere like Sutton or Harrow where there are trunk and local services. This would be to evaluate whether a move to graduated fares on buses was viable. This is deal with the inevitable issue of the flat fare being too expensive for short hop trips.

I do think the fares freeze is a ridiculously blunt tool to try to deliver "affordable fares".

[Deleted]

Jan 19, 2018 16:46:15 GMT snoggle said:

Jan 19, 2018 15:15:55 GMT @metroman said:

I think the biggest reason for cuts, is technology. People have not only a greater choice by what transport medium they use, but can see when it arrives locally. The days of needing to wait at the stops for ages not knowing when or if a bus will come is over.

I don’t leave the house until my bus is five minutes away. I don’t even need to go to TfL to see this, google maps has it ready. The actual frequency, once very important knowledge, is now irrelevant... unless the bus is full and I must wait for another, unlikely since I refuse to travel in the peaks. I’m sure I’m not the only one who has benefited from this system and I see it becoming a trend, if it isn’t already.

I don't disagree with the above but it is not a blanket provision for everyone. If people are doing journeys from home to some other building then yes they can check and minimise their wait time. However if they need to change buses the wait time can be unpredictable again. On a return trip people may be flexible in the arrangements to be able to wait in a building and just dash to the bus stop. However at least 50% of my trips involve me turning up at random at a stop and yes I can check when the bus is due but the waiting time is the waiting time. I may be lucky and see a bus is on its way via LVF or an app and be able to dash to the stop but that's luck more than planning on my part. A fair part of the population don't have access to real time info so they also turn up and wait unless they know the times a lower frequency service is due.

If TfL are abandoning their view on higher frequencies being a bonus because of real time info reducing wait times then it's slightly foolish given that there is not 100% use of such real time info and therefore people will be disadvantaged by less frequent services.

I don’t disagree with what you said either but it seems updated technology is definitely playing a part at least, I doubt TfL care about those who cannot or will not use such mediums but the trend is there.

The point you made about changing buses is also very important of course but it’s further evidence that TfL care not about waiting times.

[twobellstogo]

Forgive my ignorance, but would single deck conversions save money? Plenty of Outer London routes in particular may well be better suited to single deck operation.