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Post by cl54 on May 29, 2018 14:28:56 GMT
My suggestions for tube cuts, off peaks: Bakerloo:E&C - QPK every 5 minutes E&C - H&W every 20 minutes Provides a train every 10 minutes between QPK and H&W combined with LOROL. RR duties and spare trains required at QPK depot/SPK for contingency in case of LOROL disruption.Central:WER - EPP every 7-8 minutes EAB - HAI via NEP every 15 minutes EAB - WOO via HAI every 15 minutes NOA - LOU every 15 minutes Provides a train every 3 minutes between NOA and LES. WHC to be used for contingency only except early mornings/late evenings. To be monitored for possible future cut to 15tph (4 minute intervals in the central area post-Crossrail)Circle and H&C:Circle: Every 10 minutes H&C: Every 10 minutes HAM - BKG Frequencies as now despite upgradesDistrict:EAB - UPM every 10 minutes RMD - BKG every 10 minutes WIM - THL every 10 minutes WIM - ERD every 10 minutes Frequencies ultimately maintained but the service between BKG - UPM reduced. Also service pattern altered to make best use of ACT depot (Ealing branch trains chosen over Richmond branch for Upminster runs). Combined with circle line, maintains 24tph ‘via Victoria’ and 12 tph ‘via HSK’Jubilee:STA - STR every 10 minutes STA - NOG every 20 minutes WPK - STR every 10 minutes WIG - STR every 20 minutes Provides a train every 3 - 3.5 minutes between WIG - NOG. WHD to be used as contingency. The low ‘tph’ reversing at WIG and NOG allows for more generous turn time for drivers and aid recovery times. Weekend services may need to be more frequent at the busiest times, and enhanced modified services for Wembley and O2 eventsMetropolitan:ALD - UXB every 7-8 minutes ALD - C&L (alt to AME or CHE) every 15 minutes BST - WAT every 15 minutes I’ve retained service levels despite upgrade work, and retains a reversing platform at BST to aid contingency and service recoveryNorthern:MOR - EDG via BNK every 4 minutes KEN - HIB via CHX every 5 minutes FIC - MHE every 30 minutes I rarely use the Northern so this is a standard based on guess usage levelsPiccadilly:CFS - HT5 every 6 minutes CFS - RYL every 24 minutes CFS - HT4 every 12 minutes AGR - UXB every 24 minutes Provides a train every 3 minutes between AGR and ACT. It’s tough to know where to ‘cut’ services on the Picc due to the lack of viable reversing points on the northern end, and the requirement to service Heathrow. Suspending the Uxbridge section would cause too much public outrage so reducing the frequency slightly seems the better option.Victoria:BRI - WAC every 3 - 6 minutes BRI - SVS every 12 minutes Again it’s hard to find available cuts here due to the nature of the line. The upgrades allow for over 30 tph though, so these frequencies still represent cuts.W&C:Every 20 minutes I think if TfL want to make savings they switch off the electricity altogether on this between the peaks, however since it’s an alternative you may as well make it as unattractive as possible with trains and drivers on standby in case of disruption elsewhere. I’d at least end the Saturday service.Not sure if you have ridden on the W&C in peak hours. People get left behind. This means you have to pay drivers for a shift so use them. Off peak it still carries reasnable loads. The Jubilee at Stratford in pretty well loaded all day because of workers at Canary Wharf and the masses shopping in Westfield. Car park at Stanmore full all day. The upgrade on Victoria line was to achieve capacity for the number of people travelling. Travelled on the line an hour ago from Vauxhall to Victoria with all seats occupied. |
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Post by cl54 on May 29, 2018 14:34:37 GMT
Fair point about the Vic, although I assumed the high frequency was a standardisation reflecting the busiest times ie the peaks. If it’s just as busy outside the peaks then it’s a success story for the line as people have taken advantage of the increased service levels to a level that isn’t reflected elsewhere. As for the W&C I guess it’s a similar story although there are better alternatives to make use of. The Waterloo & City line could be made more useful. There have been suggestions in the past to extend, with proposals to merge it with the Northern City line at Moorgate or the DLR at Bank. I think the line would be more useful by just adding one intermediate station between Waterloo and Bank. Platforms built on the line at Blackfriars, with interchange to the existing station. Provides a useful connection from the ThamesLink programme, as well as the Circle/District lines. As the W&C crosses the river, a new station could have entrances at both sides of the Thames like the existing Thameslink station does. Also, while not entirely related, the interchange at Bank/Monument seems an unusual choice of stations to link. Announcements encourage interchange from the Circle/District lines to other lines at Bank, but the time taken to transfer to most of these lines means it is sometimes easier to change elsewhere (e.g. Liverpool Street, Tower Hill/Gateway). However, Cannon Street Station is much closer to Bank than Monument is, especially with the Bank station entrance on Walbrook being less than a minute walk away from Cannon Street. A Cannon Street link to Bank would also provide an interchange between National Rail services at Cannon Street and Cen/Nor/W&C/DLR at Bank. Think you need to wait until you see the expanded Bank Station. There will be a new step free entrance on Cannon Street (where McDonalds used to be). The Waterloo & City can't take any more passengers in the peaks until the upgrade and new trains. |
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Post by sid on May 29, 2018 15:01:23 GMT
My suggestions for tube cuts, off peaks: Bakerloo:E&C - QPK every 5 minutes E&C - H&W every 20 minutes Provides a train every 10 minutes between QPK and H&W combined with LOROL. RR duties and spare trains required at QPK depot/SPK for contingency in case of LOROL disruption.Central:WER - EPP every 7-8 minutes EAB - HAI via NEP every 15 minutes EAB - WOO via HAI every 15 minutes NOA - LOU every 15 minutes Provides a train every 3 minutes between NOA and LES. WHC to be used for contingency only except early mornings/late evenings. To be monitored for possible future cut to 15tph (4 minute intervals in the central area post-Crossrail)Circle and H&C:Circle: Every 10 minutes H&C: Every 10 minutes HAM - BKG Frequencies as now despite upgradesDistrict:EAB - UPM every 10 minutes RMD - BKG every 10 minutes WIM - THL every 10 minutes WIM - ERD every 10 minutes Frequencies ultimately maintained but the service between BKG - UPM reduced. Also service pattern altered to make best use of ACT depot (Ealing branch trains chosen over Richmond branch for Upminster runs). Combined with circle line, maintains 24tph ‘via Victoria’ and 12 tph ‘via HSK’Jubilee:STA - STR every 10 minutes STA - NOG every 20 minutes WPK - STR every 10 minutes WIG - STR every 20 minutes Provides a train every 3 - 3.5 minutes between WIG - NOG. WHD to be used as contingency. The low ‘tph’ reversing at WIG and NOG allows for more generous turn time for drivers and aid recovery times. Weekend services may need to be more frequent at the busiest times, and enhanced modified services for Wembley and O2 eventsMetropolitan:ALD - UXB every 7-8 minutes ALD - C&L (alt to AME or CHE) every 15 minutes BST - WAT every 15 minutes I’ve retained service levels despite upgrade work, and retains a reversing platform at BST to aid contingency and service recoveryNorthern:MOR - EDG via BNK every 4 minutes KEN - HIB via CHX every 5 minutes FIC - MHE every 30 minutes I rarely use the Northern so this is a standard based on guess usage levelsPiccadilly:CFS - HT5 every 6 minutes CFS - RYL every 24 minutes CFS - HT4 every 12 minutes AGR - UXB every 24 minutes Provides a train every 3 minutes between AGR and ACT. It’s tough to know where to ‘cut’ services on the Picc due to the lack of viable reversing points on the northern end, and the requirement to service Heathrow. Suspending the Uxbridge section would cause too much public outrage so reducing the frequency slightly seems the better option.Victoria:BRI - WAC every 3 - 6 minutes BRI - SVS every 12 minutes Again it’s hard to find available cuts here due to the nature of the line. The upgrades allow for over 30 tph though, so these frequencies still represent cuts.W&C:Every 20 minutes I think if TfL want to make savings they switch off the electricity altogether on this between the peaks, however since it’s an alternative you may as well make it as unattractive as possible with trains and drivers on standby in case of disruption elsewhere. I’d at least end the Saturday service.Not sure if you have ridden on the W&C in peak hours. People get left behind. This means you have to pay drivers for a shift so use them. Off peak it still carries reasnable loads. The Jubilee at Stratford in pretty well loaded all day because of workers at Canary Wharf and the masses shopping in Westfield. Car park at Stanmore full all day. The upgrade on Victoria line was to achieve capacity for the number of people travelling. Travelled on the line an hour ago from Vauxhall to Victoria with all seats occupied. The car park being full at Stanmore all day is hardly a surprise as it's a useful park and ride facility for anywhere north of there and it's the same when there is an event at Wembley. Aren't there plans to terminate some trains at both West Hampstead and North Greenwich which seems a sensible move? It's a bit of an understatement to say people get left behind on the W&C at peak times, it can take an eternity just to get onto the platform which is why the 26 and 76 routes are often chocca. Off peak it's totally different though and a much lower level of service suffices and I'm not sure the W&C needs to operate at all on Saturdays. |
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 15:04:54 GMT
The drivers on the W&C are Central line drivers so they can work on the Central when their work is done or they can continue on a reduced frequency off peak on the W&C. They don’t necessarily have to sit twiddling their thumbs but I’m sure will welcome less of a workload (I’m sure they have some rest from going up and down continuously but not sure what current parameters are)
Canary Wharf is NOT busy all day, as a former driver I happen to know that it is as busy as any other major station during the off peaks, which isn’t much... it’s a predominant 9-5 working area and that’s why you see trains overloaded during the peaks. NOG or Wembley events would be a far greater concern for service frequency off peak.
EDIT: The car park at Northwood is pretty full all day but it doesn’t mean you need more trains from Watford... people drive in from the north to a car park at a north London station to join the tube... hence why LU car parks across north London are busy... not just Stanmore. In any case these customers often arrive for the peak and tube cuts will be for the off peak.
From what I’m hearing about the proposals to terminate more trains at West Hampstead I’d say my off peak idea is less drastic
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Post by twobellstogo on May 29, 2018 15:19:58 GMT
If you see the crazy loadings in peak hours on the W&C, the only sensible conclusion you could draw is that it shouldn’t be extended, nor should any intermediate stations be added.
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Post by ADH45258 on May 29, 2018 16:16:37 GMT
Not sure if you have ridden on the W&C in peak hours. People get left behind. This means you have to pay drivers for a shift so use them. Off peak it still carries reasnable loads. The Jubilee at Stratford in pretty well loaded all day because of workers at Canary Wharf and the masses shopping in Westfield. Car park at Stanmore full all day. The upgrade on Victoria line was to achieve capacity for the number of people travelling. Travelled on the line an hour ago from Vauxhall to Victoria with all seats occupied. The car park being full at Stanmore all day is hardly a surprise as it's a useful park and ride facility for anywhere north of there and it's the same when there is an event at Wembley. Aren't there plans to terminate some trains at both West Hampstead and North Greenwich which seems a sensible move? It's a bit of an understatement to say people get left behind on the W&C at peak times, it can take an eternity just to get onto the platform which is why the 26 and 76 routes are often chocca. Off peak it's totally different though and a much lower level of service suffices and I'm not sure the W&C needs to operate at all on Saturdays. Yes - by operating a significant number of trains between West Hampstead and North Greenwich only (core section of line) - though perhaps some could be extended to/from Wembley Park or Stratford when events are on. This bypasses the need to purchase additional trains, which seem to be cancelled along with those for the Northern line. Presumably the Northern Line will introduce a service pattern of a number of trains not running the full length of the line (e.g. terminating at Finchley Central, Golders Green or Tooting Broadway) in order to facilitate the Battersea extension. |
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Post by snoggle on May 29, 2018 16:41:36 GMT
Presumably the Northern Line will introduce a service pattern of a number of trains not running the full length of the line (e.g. terminating at Finchley Central, Golders Green or Tooting Broadway) in order to facilitate the Battersea extension. No it won't. The plan is to push up the fleet utilisation marginally to find the trains to run to / from Battersea. AFAIK there are no plans at all to reduce peak or off peak services on the Northern by turning at intermediate points. Tooting Broadway will never be used as a turn in normal circumstances as tipping out the train and checking it is clear and then the slow crawl into / out of the siding will cause blocking back on the southbound (when terminating) and northbound (when leaving the siding). The service frequency is too high plus LU practice is to limit intermediate turns if possible *unless* entry to / from a siding or third platform can be achieved at no detriment to the timetable. Work has been done to raise the speed under ATO into West Hampstead turnback so as not to compromise the overall headway. |
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 16:47:55 GMT
Work has been done to raise the speed under ATO into West Hampstead turnback so as not to compromise the overall headway. Whilst notably destroying any chance of service recovery when the northbound goes t*ts up |
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Post by cl54 on May 29, 2018 17:07:04 GMT
The drivers on the W&C are Central line drivers so they can work on the Central when their work is done or they can continue on a reduced frequency off peak on the W&C. They don’t necessarily have to sit twiddling their thumbs but I’m sure will welcome less of a workload (I’m sure they have some rest from going up and down continuously but not sure what current parameters are) Canary Wharf is NOT busy all day, as a former driver I happen to know that it is as busy as any other major station during the off peaks, which isn’t much... it’s a predominant 9-5 working area and that’s why you see trains overloaded during the peaks. NOG or Wembley events would be a far greater concern for service frequency off peak. EDIT: The car park at Northwood is pretty full all day but it doesn’t mean you need more trains from Watford... people drive in from the north to a car park at a north London station to join the tube... hence why LU car parks across north London are busy... not just Stanmore. In any case these customers often arrive for the peak and tube cuts will be for the off peak. From what I’m hearing about the proposals to terminate more trains at West Hampstead I’d say my off peak idea is less drastic They're not proposals. Already operating and connected with stepping back for most of the day from just the island platform at Stratford. This actually improves the service. It's a very limited number of trains reversing at West Hampstead and 5 additional trains at North Greenwich. THis are useful given the massive increase in housing around the station now and in future. I've recently spent a lot of time working on the platforms at Stanmore during the off peak. Good numbers of people on virtually every departing train. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on May 29, 2018 18:19:24 GMT
They're not proposals. Already operating and connected with stepping back for most of the day from just the island platform at Stratford. This actually improves the service. It's a very limited number of trains reversing at West Hampstead and 5 additional trains at North Greenwich. THis are useful given the massive increase in housing around the station now and in future. I've recently spent a lot of time working on the platforms at Stanmore during the off peak. Good numbers of people on virtually every departing train. Funnily enough I was using the Jubilee this evening peak, and I've used it a fair few times since the new change came in. The trains barely spend any time at Stratford, quite a few times the boards were displaying "ready" before the train had even turned up  Although I imagine it's not nice as an alighting passenger, there were a few cases prior to the timetable change where the quick turnovers would result in some people not even managing to get off the train at Stratford before being taken back. |
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Post by galwhv69 on May 29, 2018 18:37:58 GMT
They're not proposals. Already operating and connected with stepping back for most of the day from just the island platform at Stratford. This actually improves the service. It's a very limited number of trains reversing at West Hampstead and 5 additional trains at North Greenwich. THis are useful given the massive increase in housing around the station now and in future. Although I imagine it's not nice as an alighting passenger, there were a few cases prior to the timetable change where the quick turnovers would result in some people not even managing to get off the train at Stratford before being taken back. Reminds me of the time I was on holiday in Poland and was coming home on a intercity train terminating at Łódż.The train had instantly switched as an express to the next town and not everyone managed to get off!There was less than a minute between the train arriving and terminating here and it departing as an express!Some people went to the mext town and I imagine they weren't happy |
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Post by galwhv69 on May 29, 2018 18:38:33 GMT
Reminds me of the time I was on holiday in Poland and was coming home on a intercity train terminating at Łódż.The train had instantly switched as an express to the next town and not everyone managed to get off!There was less than a minute between the train arriving and terminating here and it departing as an express!Some people went to the mext town and I imagine they weren't happy
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 20:28:30 GMT
The drivers on the W&C are Central line drivers so they can work on the Central when their work is done or they can continue on a reduced frequency off peak on the W&C. They don’t necessarily have to sit twiddling their thumbs but I’m sure will welcome less of a workload (I’m sure they have some rest from going up and down continuously but not sure what current parameters are) Canary Wharf is NOT busy all day, as a former driver I happen to know that it is as busy as any other major station during the off peaks, which isn’t much... it’s a predominant 9-5 working area and that’s why you see trains overloaded during the peaks. NOG or Wembley events would be a far greater concern for service frequency off peak. EDIT: The car park at Northwood is pretty full all day but it doesn’t mean you need more trains from Watford... people drive in from the north to a car park at a north London station to join the tube... hence why LU car parks across north London are busy... not just Stanmore. In any case these customers often arrive for the peak and tube cuts will be for the off peak. From what I’m hearing about the proposals to terminate more trains at West Hampstead I’d say my off peak idea is less drastic They're not proposals. Already operating and connected with stepping back for most of the day from just the island platform at Stratford. This actually improves the service. It's a very limited number of trains reversing at West Hampstead and 5 additional trains at North Greenwich. THis are useful given the massive increase in housing around the station now and in future. I've recently spent a lot of time working on the platforms at Stanmore during the off peak. Good numbers of people on virtually every departing train. Let’s just agree to disagree about the reversing at West Hampstead and ignore the fact that if the northbound goes down, trains already booked to reverse at West Hampstead are screwed and it’s good luck to the controllers to get it up and running again in an aleready tight schedule 😂 |
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Post by sid on May 29, 2018 21:46:48 GMT
They're not proposals. Already operating and connected with stepping back for most of the day from just the island platform at Stratford. This actually improves the service. It's a very limited number of trains reversing at West Hampstead and 5 additional trains at North Greenwich. THis are useful given the massive increase in housing around the station now and in future. I've recently spent a lot of time working on the platforms at Stanmore during the off peak. Good numbers of people on virtually every departing train. Let’s just agree to disagree about the reversing at West Hampstead and ignore the fact that if the northbound goes down, trains already booked to reverse at West Hampstead are screwed and it’s good luck to the controllers to get it up and running again in an aleready tight schedule 😂 Isn't there also a reversing siding north of Willesden Green? If I recall correctly in Bakerloo Line days about half the service on the Stanmore branch terminated at Wembley Park? |
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 22:57:35 GMT
Let’s just agree to disagree about the reversing at West Hampstead and ignore the fact that if the northbound goes down, trains already booked to reverse at West Hampstead are screwed and it’s good luck to the controllers to get it up and running again in an aleready tight schedule 😂 Isn't there also a reversing siding north of Willesden Green? If I recall correctly in Bakerloo Line days about half the service on the Stanmore branch terminated at Wembley Park? Yes and my point was that if northbound trains were booked to reverse there, which is easily done, then West Hampstead would become a useful spot to recover any lost time. If you take out the never-on-this-timetable reversing points at Finchley Road, London Bridge and Waterloo (I think also Canary Wharf from memory, there is nowhere you can reasonably reverse north to south via a siding/bay road past NOG without unduly delaying the overall service. Which is why LU’s practice of reversing at WHD is a terrible idea, I’ve nothing against drivers but what you will get is a lower morale and militancy when they can’t be ‘short-tripped’ during disruption because it’s not possible. Reversing at WGN alleviates that risk, not perfectly by any means but it gives greater room for recovery |
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Although I imagine it's not nice as an alighting passenger, there were a few cases prior to the timetable change where the quick turnovers would result in some people not even managing to get off the train at Stratford before being taken back.
